Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Can you get by without command points?


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1
Trevak Dal

Trevak Dal

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,614 posts
  • Location:Tennessee
  • Faction: Black Legion (Night Blades)
They are useful and all, and there is a lot of min maxing with guard or chaos space cultists being command point batteries, are they so good that they are that necessary?

"Our Turn" - Centurion Khârn.

 


#2
thewarriorhunter

thewarriorhunter

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 951 posts
  • Location:Southern Arizona
  • Faction: Raven Guard

I think unfortunately in the current meta if you don't play with them you're hamstringing yourself. They provide a lot of utility and opportunities to get things done. I think by choosing to not use them you are deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage because your opponent will be using them.


  • SickSix likes this

#3
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,725 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

They definitely are that good and they are that necessary, yes. Not taking them is gimping your own army heavily. Why would you voluntarily not be able to shoot twice or get +1 to wound or do a 3d6 charge out of deep strike or re-roll a critical lascannon hit/wound/damage roll and so on and on?


Edited by sfPanzer, 25 August 2018 - 09:07 AM.

  • Brokejaw Gutripper likes this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#4
Tamiel

Tamiel

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 136 posts

I dislike the Guard CP battery, where you take a dirt cheap batallion of two platoon leaders and 3 infantry squads. You get a bunch of bodies which can deny deepstrike or hold objectives, and these units can run really fast if they need to thanks to orders, sometimes moving faster than landspeeders (or they can stand still and just shoot twice for some added damage if you don't need them to go anywhere). That's already really good. On top of that, you get 3 CPs, which you can use on whatever army's strategems you want. You don't even have to use guard stratagems (although they have great strategems too).

You get all of this for 180 points. It's almost like the game is forcing you to do this for every Imperium list you make, simply because of how good it is.


Edited by Tamiel, 25 August 2018 - 08:17 PM.

  • Kallas likes this

#5
Chaplain Dosjetka

Chaplain Dosjetka

    ++ TUTATOR MONTEM ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 11,412 posts
How about neither player using CPs and Stratagems? Would that perhaps improve balance at least or bit?

+ Oathbreaker +

 

- Emissarius Ignis -

A Legio Invigilata project (Adeptus Titanicus)

 

"Suffer not the Heretic to live."


#6
Xwingt65

Xwingt65

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,302 posts
  • Location:Crusading, northern galactic edge
  • Faction: HH Hobby Bee.

I dislike the Guard CP battery, where you take a dirt cheap batallion of two platoon leaders and 3 infantry squads. You get a bunch of bodies which can deny deepstrike or hold objectives, and these units can run really fast if they need to thanks to orders, sometimes moving faster than landspeeders (or they can stand still and just shoot twice for some added damage if you don't need them to go anywhere). That's already really good. On top of that, you get 3 CPs, which you can use on whatever army's strategems you want. You don't even have to use guard stratagems (although they have great strategems too).
You get all of this for 180 points. It's almost like the game is forcing you to do this for every Imperium list you make, simply because of how good it is.


Guard and CP’s are so broken it isn’t even funny. I have stopped playing the local guard players, because it just isn’t a fun army to face at all.
  • Tamiel and Hantheman like this
13.jpg

The 40k fluff explained to an outsider:

Some space elves got really into drugs and sex and a big scary monster got born that ate them.
A space wizard got beaten up by a guy who said he was his friend but wasn't and now he's on a life support machine and people worship him because he was super awesome.
Now there are giant men with rocket launcher machine guns and 4 hearts and are really super awesome who beat up everything.
Also there's a bunch of aliens but they don't really do anything and aren't as cool as the rocket machine gun super men, so who cares?

#7
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,725 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

How about neither player using CPs and Stratagems? Would that perhaps improve balance at least or bit?

 

Not really, no. Some armies are really dependant on Stratagems. Like Blood Angels and the earlier mentioned 3d6 charge out of deep strike for Jump Pack units. It's literally the only difference why they're considered more viable than vanillar Marines (and Captain Smash of course but that's 90% Stratagems as well).

 

I don't see any reason why we should play without such a crucial part of the current edition. That's like saying "lets play without saves" or something. Basically just a step back. Yes there are some armies with bad Stratagems and some armies with really good Stratagems and yes there are some armies who abuse the CP generation by design because GW is bad at designing some things but just giving up and removing all that is not the solution imo.


Edited by sfPanzer, 28 August 2018 - 04:02 AM.

  • Tyriks likes this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#8
The Unseen

The Unseen

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,076 posts
  • Location:Western Kentucky, Continental USA
  • Faction: Charnel Guard

How about neither player using CPs and Stratagems? Would that perhaps improve balance at least or bit?


No.
It wouldn't.
Guard funnily enough don't care about CP, at least not for example, like Blood Angels do.

Pulling out strategems entirely just weights the game further in favor of cheap effecient units.
  • Kallas likes this

"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#9
Azekai

Azekai

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,766 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Faction: Warp Locusts, Traitor Guard

 

How about neither player using CPs and Stratagems? Would that perhaps improve balance at least or bit?


No.
It wouldn't.
Guard funnily enough don't care about CP, at least not for example, like Blood Angels do.

 

As a chaos player, eating a 'Vengeance for Cadia' volley at every single opportunity is pretty lame.

 

That one stratagem makes the matchup really unpleasant- as if guard weren't bad enough.


Corruption is our armor.
Infection is our weapon.
Immortality is our reward.

 

gallery_48988_13169_3872.pngETL_VI_Badge_Forum_Champion_Chaos_LATD.jgallery_63428_7083_8312.png3DrnTQ5.png

#10
Skaorn

Skaorn

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 478 posts

How about neither player using CPs and Stratagems? Would that perhaps improve balance at least or bit?


I'd honestly be in favor of this. At worst I think it would be like scraping the frosting off of cake. It's not like you're cutting out something that affects core gameplay mechanics since you don't use CP to call in deep strikers, put a unit into overwatch, or rally a unit. The only thing you would have to do is probably work out something with detachments to curb people from doing things like just taking the supreme command detachments. I think I would, personally, probably go with detachments having the type of detachment you take equaling a set amount of points, SC detachment being the lowest, and have the person with the highest score go first in the game. Of course the people you play with might be fine with just using the old FOC if they aren't fans of soup. I'd personally be interested to see how the games play out.
  • Xisor and Chaplain Dosjetka like this
Obed was a sailor. He sailed the seven seas. He made love to the fish. He made love to the fish.
Spaceship Zero, Insmouth Look

#11
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,725 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

 

 

How about neither player using CPs and Stratagems? Would that perhaps improve balance at least or bit?


No.
It wouldn't.
Guard funnily enough don't care about CP, at least not for example, like Blood Angels do.

 

As a chaos player, eating a 'Vengeance for Cadia' volley at every single opportunity is pretty lame.

 

That one stratagem makes the matchup really unpleasant- as if guard weren't bad enough.

 

 

I'm pretty sure other armies think similarly about Veterans of the Long War. ^^


  • Halfpint100 likes this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#12
Malios

Malios

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 130 posts
As a faction, dark eldar can operate well without using stratagems. However, you still need command points to shut down the opponent's stratagems so the arms race for command points continue.

The problem though if you remove the use of command points is that not only do you hamstring yourself in this edition like others above have mentioned, but you also take away alot of theme from your army: the theme and character of different factions in many cases are, at least partially, represented in their selection of stratagems.

For example, if you took strategems away from Blood Angels: yes they still have the red thirst and black rage rules. Yes they still have sanguinary guard, librarian dreads, baal predators and death company plebs / dreads, but its the stratagems that give these units their character. Effectively without them, it would feel like you're playing codex space marines.

If you're drastically worried about the balance of command points, and you want to reduce the number of command points, the best two ways is to tighten down how many detachments you can take, or homebrew the kill team / AoS version where command points accumulate per turn rather then hoarding the stash from turn one.

Edited by Malios, 28 August 2018 - 07:57 AM.

The greatest contradiction of chaos is that it is a realm in constant flux, yet the gods themselves never change.


#13
Mileposter

Mileposter

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 687 posts
  • Location:Marilith Zone
  • Faction: Astra Militarum
As with most things in a game as complex as Warhammer40k, feelings on this are going to be strongly influenced by the local meta or whom plays whom most often.

Someone who eats a Vengeance for Cadia volley every turn of every other game is going to feel fairly strongly about the CP and Stratagems of Guard - partly stealing an example from a previous poster - while another chaos player who never faces Guard at all may not think much of it. Certain combinations shine strongly against other armies, certain combinations shine strongly regardless of opponent, and some just simply exist. There are certainly some armies that have sucky stratagems (Space Marines, looking at you) and some that have awesome ones, but overall, how strongly each set impacts you is going to be determined by your environment. And it's humanly impossible to balance every interaction that can occur.

In the meta I used to play in a little north of me (I recently moved), playing without CP would be super easy. No one played the big offenders. Doing it at the local GW? Impossible. Knights and Mechanicus are the local favorites - live and breathe with their CP.

enyara144th.png


#14
Skaorn

Skaorn

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 478 posts
I'm not buying the whole stratagem = character. How long has you army had this "character"? Why does your BA deserve to have more "character" than all the other former legions without their own codex? I'm sorry but this smells more like "I don't want to loose my super combo", if people wanted to play without stratagems, not any loss to the actual character of an army that has existed since before 8th. I doubt any army would be ruined if GW decided to scrap stratagems in a future edition.
Obed was a sailor. He sailed the seven seas. He made love to the fish. He made love to the fish.
Spaceship Zero, Insmouth Look

#15
Malios

Malios

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 130 posts

I'm not buying the whole stratagem = character. How long has you army had this "character"? Why does your BA deserve to have more "character" than all the other former legions without their own codex? I'm sorry but this smells more like "I don't want to loose my super combo", if people wanted to play without stratagems, not any loss to the actual character of an army that has existed since before 8th. I doubt any army would be ruined if GW decided to scrap stratagems in a future edition.


For context, I dislike stratagems. I feel they are lazy and take away any remaining thought or strategy from the game. The intention is good, but like formations in 7th edition: "its not the system, its the players."

As it stands, stratagems give armies their character just as much as their rules associated with theier key words. Its not a case of butt hurtery, its an integral part of an army like formations were in 7th. If you weren't to use them (which is fine), then regretfully you're only getting part of the faction benefits.

Edited by Malios, 29 August 2018 - 02:36 AM.

The greatest contradiction of chaos is that it is a realm in constant flux, yet the gods themselves never change.


#16
Kilofix

Kilofix

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,975 posts
  • Location:Zombie proof bunker backwoods USA
  • Faction: Radicals, Renegades & Heretics
I like the way CPs (or rather their equivalent) are handled in AoS, Necromunda, and Kill Team. You don’t need to (and can’t really) build your army around being a CP battery, it doesn’t seem that crucial or gamebreaking, yet they provide for some play variety in terms of the different Strats that can be used by different factions.


That said, I don’t know how they might be able to retrofit 40Ks system to something like AOS or KT where you get a set number of CPs a turn (while still providing incentives to field Troops, and not just Guard Troops for Imperium). Maybe something whereby everyone starts with 3 CPs, and gets 1 more a turn, and if you have a non-soup Battalion then you get 1 more or something. I dunno.
Current Projects: Radical Inquisition || Storm Trooper Battles || Renegades & Heretics || ETL III || ETL III Tribute II ETL IV - Ryza II ETL V - Chaos
gallery_75122_9925_27254.pnggallery_75122_9925_245.pnggallery_75122_9925_845.pnggallery_75122_9925_2931.pnggallery_75122_9925_34773.jpeg
“Imperial counter-strike massacred on Isstvan Five. Vulkan and Corax missing. Ferrus Manus dead. Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are with Horus Lupercal”

#17
ThatOneMarshal

ThatOneMarshal

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,132 posts
  • Location:The Golden State
  • Faction: Black Templars and Night lords

I'm not buying the whole stratagem = character. How long has you army had this "character"? Why does your BA deserve to have more "character" than all the other former legions without their own codex? I'm sorry but this smells more like "I don't want to loose my super combo", if people wanted to play without stratagems, not any loss to the actual character of an army that has existed since before 8th. I doubt any army would be ruined if GW decided to scrap stratagems in a future edition.


Yeah but a lot of the times GW has given the old rules that built character in an army to the strategems.

But hey maybe I’m biased since I primarily play blood angels and guard :D

Terran_zps971683eb.pngETL_2014_Banner_V2_03A_Custos_Fidei.jpg  ETL_2016_Banner_01_Oath_of_Moment.jpg

 

 
 


#18
SillyDreadnought

SillyDreadnought

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 284 posts

I'd use command points of my Space Marines had anything to use them on.



#19
Stonehorse

Stonehorse

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 6 posts
  • Location:Strokestown, Roscommon, Ireland
It isn't that the Command Points system is bad, but how it is handled is.

I'd be all on favour of scrapping strategems in the Codexes and introducting more in the main rules. What we see are lists built to abuse several overpowered strategems, and also taking allies to produce cheap command points.

I'd also say that the detachment that contains the Warlord is the only source of Command points the army generates.

The current system is poorly implemented.

The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.


#20
Halfpint100

Halfpint100

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,057 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Faction: 32nd Firedrakes

I would be happy if all faction CP reclaiming warlord traits on a 5+ for their own strategems can ONLY be used for generic or their own codex traits. None of this reclaiming CP from knight strats using a guard CP farm. I play guard as my main 40k army and have done for over a decade, it is a shame that we are only used to bring CP in competitive meta and the amount of hate it brings down on those who play mono guard (maybe with some inquisitors cause I am a sucker for them) is painful. 

 

I find I have too much CP as a guard player using the CP farm, our strategems are average (exception vs chaos, sorry guys, you got the short end of the stick vs guard. But veterans of the long war is painful too, used on a 30 man cultist bomb hurts!).


  • Xisor likes this

#21
bluntpencil

bluntpencil

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 148 posts

One uptick of the Guard CP battery:

 

Space Marines get to be small, elite, units of superheroes, coming to rescue a heap of beleaguered infantry, who are trying their best to hold the line.

 

Pretty much how it should be.


  • Xisor likes this

#22
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,725 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Knights of Baal

One uptick of the Guard CP battery:

 

Space Marines get to be small, elite, units of superheroes, coming to rescue a heap of beleaguered infantry, who are trying their best to hold the line.

 

Pretty much how it should be.

 

It's not a fluff or narrative problem. Plenty of ways to justify that. It's a balance problem.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#23
Azekai

Azekai

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,766 posts
  • Location:Texas
  • Faction: Warp Locusts, Traitor Guard
Guardsmen and (whatever) fighting alongside each other is fine. It should not be so ideal that it becomes the obligatory configuration for Imperial armies.

Corruption is our armor.
Infection is our weapon.
Immortality is our reward.

 

gallery_48988_13169_3872.pngETL_VI_Badge_Forum_Champion_Chaos_LATD.jgallery_63428_7083_8312.png3DrnTQ5.png

#24
thewarriorhunter

thewarriorhunter

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 951 posts
  • Location:Southern Arizona
  • Faction: Raven Guard

Guardsmen and (whatever) fighting alongside each other is fine. It should not be so ideal that it becomes the obligatory configuration for Imperial armies.

 

Completely agree. I don't want to have to buy a couple units of Guard and paint them up just so I can keep up in the CP game. I would love to be able to play mono-faction marines and not feel like I'm behind before I even start.


  • Iron Father Ferrum likes this

#25
SickSix

SickSix

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,979 posts
  • Location:Tallahassee, FL
  • Faction: Silver Skulls
I agree with many here that CP are to integral to codex design to not use them. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they are not just flavorful addon but are designed into the balance of an army.

It would be like playing with one arm tied behind your back.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users