Ascanius Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think Ian St. Martin did an excellent job of sprinkling in all the little horrible details that go unremarked-upon by even the "noble" or "heroic" characters - slaves, servitors, et cetera. I agree that it's quite incongruous to see Ultramarines following the Imperial Cult, but 1) I don't really care , 2) it's so early on in the Indomitus Crusade that members of the Eighth Company have never encountered Primaris Marines before, so if I were forced to reconcile it I'd suggest that the Eighth, or at least part of it overseen by Helios, has taken on the Imperial Cult where the chapter as a whole has not. That said, I disagree with Ishagu that the Ultramarines of 40K are supposed to be ultra-rationalist. All Space Marines have their own chapter "cults", venerating their Primarchs, even if they're not necessarily in accord with the Imperial Cult of the masses. Making pilgrimages to the body of the Primarch and venerating the relics of the chapter are not just matters of secular respect for the past, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmacht Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 The lore can be altered at any time. Ultramarines are not immune to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think Ian St. Martin did an excellent job of sprinkling in all the little horrible details that go unremarked-upon by even the "noble" or "heroic" characters - slaves, servitors, et cetera. I agree that it's quite incongruous to see Ultramarines following the Imperial Cult, but 1) I don't really care , 2) it's so early on in the Indomitus Crusade that members of the Eighth Company have never encountered Primaris Marines before, so if I were forced to reconcile it I'd suggest that the Eighth, or at least part of it overseen by Helios, has taken on the Imperial Cult where the chapter as a whole has not. That said, I disagree with Ishagu that the Ultramarines of 40K are supposed to be ultra-rationalist. All Space Marines have their own chapter "cults", venerating their Primarchs, even if they're not necessarily in accord with the Imperial Cult of the masses. Making pilgrimages to the body of the Primarch and venerating the relics of the chapter are not just matters of secular respect for the past, you know? well, you can still be rational and engage in ancestor worship. my relatives are the most logic driven people i know, but still wave the incense and oranges at photos of the dead grandparents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 There are other books that feature the Ultras that take place during this period and in those they aren't portrayed as religious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 There are other books that feature the Ultras that take place during this period and in those they aren't portrayed as religious. Religious is better word than ritualistic, thank you. Although I'm perturbed why you oppose religious with rational; that's neither very culturally sensitive or historically accurate. Anyway why can't there be variation in the chapter? You take 1000 people of a culture and you'll have variations of belief, orthodoxy and practice. Now a marine chapter is more than 1000 - neophytes and serfs drawn from ultramar citizenry, and other pops perhaps - and there will be variations of orthodoxy within that large geographical area, presumably carried into the chapter. Further as I have written before on the forum, I view orthodoxy as an illusion versus heterodoxy as the norm within a cultural group. 40k fluff - especially that turned into tropes by codices and the wikis - is too black and white and not sociologically astute. I think this chaplain represents the diversity of ultramarine society - and shows a nice distinction from the crusade era ultramarines and others we generally encounter. Also in an era where miracles happen, saints live and the cult is omnipresent, why fault St Martin justifiably depicting a (posthuman) man's faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 There are other books that feature the Ultras that take place during this period and in those they aren't portrayed as religious. Religious is better word than ritualistic, thank you. Although I'm perturbed why you oppose religious with rational; that's neither very culturally sensitive or historically accurate. Anyway why can't there be variation in the chapter? You take 1000 people of a culture and you'll have variations of belief, orthodoxy and practice. Now a marine chapter is more than 1000 - neophytes and serfs drawn from ultramar citizenry, and other pops perhaps - and there will be variations of orthodoxy within that large geographical area, presumably carried into the chapter. Further as I have written before on the forum, I view orthodoxy as an illusion versus heterodoxy as the norm within a cultural group. 40k fluff - especially that turned into tropes by codices and the wikis - is too black and white and not sociologically astute. I think this chaplain represents the diversity of ultramarine society - and shows a nice distinction from the crusade era ultramarines and others we generally encounter. Also in an era where miracles happen, saints live and the cult is omnipresent, why fault St Martin justifiably depicting a (posthuman) man's faith? Interesting point for sure but I think the Chapter orthodoxy is whatever the chapter command states it is and enforced by the Chaplaincy. The Ultramarines like all Space Marine chapters are a military order with specific traditions and philosophies and not the sum beliefs of the cultures it draws it's force from. To date that orthodoxy is the Imperial Truth. Of course the Ultramarines have their traditions and rituals and even their own Bible (Codex Astartes) which from the outside might even look like it's faith based. Perhaps saying that they are ultra-rational might be pushing it, but the Ultramarines certainly don't subscribe to the idea of the Emperor as divine. In light of this, Helios' prayers and views might even be considered heretical by the chapter. Guilliman certainly would not approve. Now we may be seeing a change in lore decreed by GW. They certainly have the right to do as they please. I just don't think that's the case. I think we just have one author's brain fart which to me is just that and didn't detract from my overall enjoyment of the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 This story might be the exception and not the rule. Dark Imperium 2 is out soon, and we'll see further examples of how the Ultras operate. I feel that Chaplain Helios would be censored by Guilliman if the Primarch was present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 This story might be the exception and not the rule. Dark Imperium 2 is out soon, and we'll see further examples of how the Ultras operate. I feel that Chaplain Helios would be censored by Guilliman if the Primarch was present. Yup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Ishagu, you have yet to tell us what you thought about gullimans admission in the epilogue :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 I was away this past week and forgot to take the book with me so I haven't finished it. I'm looking forward to it... Or should I fear it? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 Which bit? I feel it was coloured in how it was presented here by you before vs how it's written as a whole. Seemed pretty clear he had no intention of doing it, he simply pointed out that he could have, which we knew. Largest surviving force on either side and all that. Instead we see he felt a strong sense of duty and followed it through despite that meaning imperium secundus couldn't be wiped from history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 The way he said it though seems pretty clear from the text, he and the ultramarines actively considered it, but choose not to do it. Rather than not even thinking about it as a possibility. Its a bit of a surprise he would even consider it, you have to admit. Not saying he is a traitor or heretic or anything, but its is a surprise that he thought it. The lion has been accussed of being a traitor for less! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 A few spoilers here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 apologies, forgot the spoiler tags! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 likewise, sorry! i was on my phone and forgot! fixed now. I didn't read it as if he considered it as an actual option, purely a theoretical, which actually does seem very in keeping with his character, he supposed to be the one that considered just about every possibility and has a plan for it afterall. I don't think the ultramarines themselves considered it, purely him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Lunkhead Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 I was away this past week and forgot to take the book with me so I haven't finished it. I'm looking forward to it... Or should I fear it? Lol Know no fear brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I was away this past week and forgot to take the book with me so I haven't finished it. I'm looking forward to it... Or should I fear it? Lol Know no fear brother Post of the week ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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