Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Large data has been compiled, take a look at the latest episode of Chapter Tactics on the FLG website. Astartes are no longer a popular sub faction. Imperium is now ruled by Knights and Guard. The Space marine codex has a win rate of 35%. This is worse than some index armies. The only army that is worse is Grey Knights with a win rate of 20% Eldar variants generally have a win rate of over 70% Only 3 Eldar lists lost more games than they won after 9 tournaments each comprising 40+ players. Tau, without allies has a win rate in the mid 50s, showing that a mono codex with no allies can indeed perform well if it's well written. The data looks at armies' primary detachments. Chaos Marines outperform the loyalists generally. Allied Blood Angels also perform well in mixed Imperium armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinstryfe Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 They were the first Codex, and will likely suck until they're the first new codex for 8th 2.0 or whatever they do next. It's the circle of Astartes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Considering that in a mono-codex with Chaos Space Marines you can “accidentally” create a full brigade. As well as having double the wounds of a Loyalist Marine Codex. Not sure how Space Wolves will affect your stats overall, but I don’t see them doing much, if anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Vanilla marines are feeling that fabled "first codex" syndrome. With us 20 releases into this edition already I would be more shocked if they weren't hurting a bit by now. And you can do a Primaris Brigade, but you'd only have units of 5 Primaris all over the board for better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I hate 5-man units, never saw the point of them. Just not enough bodies to do much. Until I started running them in pairs anyways, one with a heavy weapon and another with a special. Haven’t really tried a MSU Primaris force yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I hate 5-man units, never saw the point of them. Just not enough bodies to do much. Until I started running them in pairs anyways, one with a heavy weapon and another with a special. Haven’t really tried a MSU Primaris force yet. Primaris I think can do it better since they tank like a 10 man unit of regular Marines, and their limited wargear isn't as mucked up as other choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Blame it on the 'classic' models. Once they're phased out, Astartes will get proper rules with their all-Primaris goodness. The smaller models are holding us back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 Msu Primaris works. I should know, my tournament win rate is above 60% with a Primaris force. I must be an exceptional commander lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Do you have a link to the data, Ishagu? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 Here's a link to the podcast. Worth a listen! http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/c/f/c/cfc0820b5d86b987/CT_79_Stats.mp3?c_id=22941089&cs_id=22941089&expiration=1535486695&hwt=b0dea0591b1c3951067cefaceff54526 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProsperoStands Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Come play 30k, where they don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MistaGav Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I think that this point the codex SM needs a bit of an overhaul/completely new codex in order to be competitive with some radical changes. Problem is those changes sort of need to be applied to the BA, DA, SW codexes too and then some love for grey Knights and Heretic Astartes and I don't fancy the idea of buying another book for it and it just means we end up in the same cycle as before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 Yeah. It's why the Primaris are the real only hope for a solution, unfortunately. They have a set of unique units with statlines and wargear that don't repeat across the codex meaning they can be adjusted easily. Put it this way; You can change Agressors quite easily, but if you change Terminators you need to address Chaos as well, and then it becomes sticky when you factor in Deathguard who have boosted statlines, etc etc. I've seen fellow users on the forum propose changes, but the truth is they aren't nearly drastic enough! To put the humble marine back on the table he'd need to cost no more than 9 points! But then we have to adjust Khorne Berserkers and Plague Marines, Dev Squads, Assault Squads, Longfangs, etc... Gets messy! Edit: This is also why Chaos needs a unique range that doesn't repeat units from the loyalist side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Come play 30k, where they don't!The Custodes say hi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCE1981 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 @Ishagu As he stands now I agree, the 8th edition really nerfed Space Marines. There is a slew of reasons on what happened here, I think the horse has been beat to a bloody pulp by now on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiceGuyAdi Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Blame it on the 'classic' models. Once they're phased out, Astartes will get proper rules with their all-Primaris goodness. The smaller models are holding us back. Hnnnnng biting lip so hard! I for one remain optimistic for chapter approved. Notice I didn’t say ‘hopeful’. So no one can say it’s the first step to disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Yeah. It's why the Primaris are the real only hope for a solution, unfortunately. They have a set of unique units with statlines and wargear that don't repeat across the codex meaning they can be adjusted easily. Put it this way; You can change Agressors quite easily, but if you change Terminators you need to address Chaos as well, and then it becomes sticky when you factor in Deathguard who have boosted statlines, etc etc. I've seen fellow users on the forum propose changes, but the truth is they aren't nearly drastic enough! To put the humble marine back on the table he'd need to cost no more than 9 points! But then we have to adjust Khorne Berserkers and Plague Marines, Dev Squads, Assault Squads, Longfangs, etc... Gets messy! Edit: This is also why Chaos needs a unique range that doesn't repeat units from the loyalist side. This is why Soup should be banned. When every Codex stands alone, you don't have to care what anyone else is getting. Why do Loyalist Terminators have better stats than Chaos ones? Because Loyalists need them to be better. Why are Loyalist Marines cheaper? Because the SM Codex needs cheaper Marines. End of discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Yeah. It's why the Primaris are the real only hope for a solution, unfortunately. They have a set of unique units with statlines and wargear that don't repeat across the codex meaning they can be adjusted easily. Put it this way; You can change Agressors quite easily, but if you change Terminators you need to address Chaos as well, and then it becomes sticky when you factor in Deathguard who have boosted statlines, etc etc. I've seen fellow users on the forum propose changes, but the truth is they aren't nearly drastic enough! To put the humble marine back on the table he'd need to cost no more than 9 points! But then we have to adjust Khorne Berserkers and Plague Marines, Dev Squads, Assault Squads, Longfangs, etc... Gets messy! Edit: This is also why Chaos needs a unique range that doesn't repeat units from the loyalist side. This is why Soup should be banned. When every Codex stands alone, you don't have to care what anyone else is getting. Why do Loyalist Terminators have better stats than Chaos ones? Because Loyalists need them to be better. Why are Loyalist Marines cheaper? Because the SM Codex needs cheaper Marines. End of discussion. This is true but I’d go even further. I’ve never understood why the stats for certain marines are the same regardless of their role. Why do a devastator and an assault marine have the same number of close combat attacks? If they’re specialising in those roles then an assault marine surely would have more. I think this is one of the major problems with Marines. They’ve used one stat line for incredibly different units with incredibly different roles. A lot of the other codexes don’t do this and I think some changes to the stats that reflect a units role might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 See i'm of the opinion that the state line is perfectly fine as a generalist statline reflecting high quality (read; genetically modified superhumans). The problem here is equipment. Devastators get the tools they need to do their job. (Big, long range guns). Assault marines do not. Tactical marines kinda do but at least they have a special rule that gives them a purpose in the game. If Assault Marines are going to get a pistol and a chainsword, they need some kind of special rule to keep them justified at 16 pts, like, the ability to shoot in every close combat phase (not just their own), or chainswords need to be better (since Tacs and Devs don't/wont' have them), ie, +1 attack, -2 ap, something like that. High BS, WS, and S are only as good as the weapons that leverage them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MistaGav Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Primaris won't make space marines magically better as they are just as guilty of the same problems. Overpriced, underpowered, need better strategems.The quickest and easy way to fix Astartes is via CA with points changes, new relics, stratagems, WLT etc but they need a deeper look at which would mean overhauling some units entirely. Some units need a complete re-write which means new datasheets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Primaris won't make space marines magically better as they are just as guilty of the same problems. Overpriced, underpowered, need better strategems. The quickest and easy way to fix Astartes is via CA with points changes, new relics, stratagems, WLT etc but they need a deeper look at which would mean overhauling some units entirely. Some units need a complete re-write which means new datasheets. I pretty much entirely agree with this. There's a 16 page thread over on Dakka about Assault Marines needing to be 5-6 pts. Now certainly, I think that's a bit nuts, but given how the design space of Astartes is pretty much airtight, there isn't much that can be done with them right now except drop points. Personally I love that idea, as I love getting more space marines on the table, but others don't like that and think marines need to be more elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 I don't agree with that. Hellblasters, Inceptors, Intercessors and Agressors all have a specific purpose and do it well. Also, because they all have unique wargear not found on other units the can all be asjusted individually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 Some positive info! Apparently the next chapter approved will be very positive for Astartes. This info has just come from a famed play-tester, but there are no specifics that he can share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Yeah GW will quit selling and supporting the other Armies . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Some positive info! Apparently the next chapter approved will be very positive for Astartes. This info has just come from a famed play-tester, but there are no specifics that he can share. Let us hope this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.