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Can Mephiston Wings out of a Drop Pod?


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#1
Diagramdude

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Got into a long unresolved debate yesterday with an opponent and thought I'd take it here.

Can Mephiston Wings of Sanguinius out of a Drop Pod? The big FAQ confirmed the part of the core rules that state a unit arriving as reinforcements cannot move further for any reason including warp time, swarmlord, etc in the rest of the turn.

What the FAQ isn't clear on is if the disembarking passengers are subject to that same restriction.

My, of course strongly biased, argument is that the drop pod is the unit arriving as reinforcements and suffers all of the related restrictions. Mephiston however is a disembarking passenger and therefore only subject to the disembark rules. He must disembark within 3" of the pod and, from the Drop Pod Assault rule, more than 9" from enemy units. Mephiston is disembarking, not arriving from reinforcements like the drop pod did. The drop pod can go anywhere on the battlefield "in this manner" like any other unit arriving as reinforcements. Mephiston can't. So, because Mephiston is a disembarking unit, not a unit arriving as reinforcements, he can Wings 12" further in the psychic phase.

I believe my argument is directly supported by the big FAQ clarifying that auspex scan cannot target units disembarking from a drop pod. You can auspex scan the drop pod immediately after it is set up, but you cannot shoot the disembarking passengers. Therefore, when you set up the passengers you are using the "disembark" function, not the "arriving as reinforcements" function, because they cannot be Auspex Scan intercepted, which triggers off of a "unit arriving as reinforcements."

Finally, if it is clearly accepted that Mephiston is disembarking, not arriving as reinforcements like the pod, then the final paragraph in the core rules about transports says

"Disembark: Units that disembark are free to act normally (move, shoot, charge, etc) during the remainder of their turn."

A xenos parallel of this would be if units disembarking from a tyrannocyte can be affected by the swarmlord's move power in the shooting phase.

Looking forward to discussing this here; if it isn't kosher I am relegating my drop pod back to desktop paper weight duty.

#2
Vykes

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The FAQ isn't explicitly clear about whether or not they can but the unit inside does count as a reinforcement for the purposes of determining reinforcements and deployment (per the standard Tactical Reserve Rules and the FAQ).  So, arguing that a unit that arrives by means of tactical reinforcement, counting as a reinforcement, set aside with reinforcements, but isn't a reinforcement is... yeah... that's pretty slim in my books. It would be arguing that drop pods and units of that sort were the threats referred to as 'reinforcement unit' in the FAQ preamble*.  

 

My argument for it would be the wording of the Drop Pod and FAQ:  Drop pods have, "During Deployment, you can set this model, along with any units embarked within it, in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield..."

 

And the FAQ: "Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements..." Thus units that are arriving as transported units would follow the Disembarkation rules and have being counted as being in orbit.  If one were to further argue high orbit vs. orbit, then might as well debate what 'etc.' means too. 

 

In a similar but more clearer vein, the ever useful Upon Wings of Fire is "Use this stratagem in the movement phase before moving" and deploying from reinforcement counts as having moved.

 

*Otherwise, Tyranid creatures coming in from reserves via the Trygon's Subterranean Assault rule and using the Swarmlord Hive Commander ability, just not the Trygon itself. 

 

Post Scriptum: yeah, drop pods aren't that great... okay, 'codex' drop pods aren't that great, the Chaos Dreadclaw and Kharibdys are better in so far as units that debark can embark in the next turn as they aren't subject to the immobile rule.  So while they all have to file out and get their 'debarkation' tickets stamped, they can turn around and go home shortly after and use it as limited low-flying taxi.  Basically, standard pods are a casualty of 8th. 


Edited by Vykes, 31 August 2018 - 03:10 AM.

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#3
SM1981

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There is a rule in the main book that says characters in vehicles can't be affected by psychic powers or Aura's.

It also says their powers / auras don't work on units close to the vehicles they are in.

So your problem wouldn't be "does it work when he disembarks", but how you get it active on him whilst in the vehicle / drop pod to begin with.
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#4
Majkhel

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There is a rule in the main book that says characters in vehicles can't be affected by psychic powers or Aura's.

It also says their powers / auras don't work on units close to the vehicles they are in.

So your problem wouldn't be "does it work when he disembarks", but how you get it active on him whilst in the vehicle / drop pod to begin with.

That's easy as movement phase precedes psychic phase.
So in movement phase drop pod arrives, Mephy disembarks. On psychic phase he casts WoS. And now the question: can he move.
He can definitely charge later in the charge phase, but that's not what Diagram dude is asking

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#5
sfPanzer

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There is a rule in the main book that says characters in vehicles can't be affected by psychic powers or Aura's.

It also says their powers / auras don't work on units close to the vehicles they are in.

So your problem wouldn't be "does it work when he disembarks", but how you get it active on him whilst in the vehicle / drop pod to begin with.

 

Technically right but totally not relevant here since you are forced to disembark from Drop Pods so the character is not in a vehicle anymore by the time he'd cast Wings of Sanguinius.


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#6
SM1981

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That's easy as movement phase precedes psychic phase.
So in movement phase drop pod arrives, Mephy disembarks. On psychic phase he casts WoS. And now the question: can he move.
He can definitely charge later in the charge phase, but that's not what Diagram dude is asking

Yeah he can totally do that. WOS give him a new 12 inch move from when it is cast. So disembark. Cast. Move additional 12 (with fly keyword /, ability) is absolutely fine.

I thought you were saying you had him in a vehicle with wings already cast on him, and were looking to disembark 12. That wouldn't be cool. And hence my initial answer above.

Edited by SM1981, 01 September 2018 - 03:39 PM.

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#7
Kallas

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Yeah he can totally do that. WOS give him a new 12 inch move from when it is cast. So disembark. Cast. Move additional 12 (with fly keyword /, ability) is absolutely fine.


I thought you were saying you had him in a vehicle with wings already cast on him, and were looking to disembark 12. That wouldn't be cool. And hence my initial answer above.

Yes, though the issue is whether he is considered to be a model arriving from reserves, which, with the Beta Matched Play rules, would preclude him from being subject to another 'Movement Phase type' movement, not whether he can cast the power or not.

 

It's debatable, but I would be inclined to say that no, he could not move again. He and the Drop Pod were put into reserves as reinforcements.



#8
The Unseen

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That's easy as movement phase precedes psychic phase.
So in movement phase drop pod arrives, Mephy disembarks. On psychic phase he casts WoS. And now the question: can he move.
He can definitely charge later in the charge phase, but that's not what Diagram dude is asking

Yeah he can totally do that. WOS give him a new 12 inch move from when it is cast. So disembark. Cast. Move additional 12 (with fly keyword /, ability) is absolutely fine.

I thought you were saying you had him in a vehicle with wings already cast on him, and were looking to disembark 12. That wouldn't be cool. And hence my initial answer above.

 

 

Except NO, he can't, at least as of the new FAQ. He's arriving from reinforcement that turn. And that prohibits him from taking any other movement based actions. Which sucks, but them's the breaks.

 

I used to take a jump pack libby, deepstrike, then use wings to line up an infernus pistol shot+charge vs something important. Doesn't work anymore.


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#9
Diagramdude

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Is he arriving "in this manner" as reinforcement though? The drop pod is arriving as reinforcements, able to land anywhere on the board. Mephiston is disembarking, limited within 3 of the pod. You cannot auspex scan him, which keys off of a unit set up as reinforcements.

Units that start their movement phase embarked in a transport, are free to act normally after disembarking.

#10
Vykes

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It's not a summoned unit, and it isn't set up on deployment, so it's a reinforcement that just so happens to not key that specific Strategem.  Much like shooting at a charging character who is further away than another unit still allows for overwatch despite it following the standard rules for shooting (which doesn't allow one to shoot characters, normally) That doesn't make the character temporarily not a character.  

 

Aye, the Libby inferno pistol method Unseen mentioned used to be something I liked too, just like the Chaos 'thing' was warping in terminators with a sorcerer and Warptiming them up.  I mean, if units from drop pods aren't reinforcements, then oh man it'll be fun to Warptime that 20 man Chainaxe berserker squad inside a Kharibdys that aren't reinforcements!  


Edited by Vykes, 01 September 2018 - 09:04 PM.

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#11
The Unseen

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Is he arriving "in this manner" as reinforcement though? The drop pod is arriving as reinforcements, able to land anywhere on the board. Mephiston is disembarking, limited within 3 of the pod. You cannot auspex scan him, which keys off of a unit set up as reinforcements.

Units that start their movement phase embarked in a transport, are free to act normally after disembarking.

 

Alright then, where exactly was mephiston located before your turn started? Oh, that's right, in reserves, inside the drop pod. Don't try and bend a supremely obvious rule, this ruleset is messed up enough as is.


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#12
BluejayJunior

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I would agree that he is coming in from Reserves, since he was not set up on the battlefield. 


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#13
Diagramdude

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I want to paste the verbatim FAQ ruling because I think there is some confusion in the arguments against my original position.

"The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefeld as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.

Some rules – such as Early Warning Override in Codex: T’au Empire, the Ever Vigilant Stratagem in Codex: Adeptus Custodes, and the Auspex Scan Stratagem in Codex: Space Marines – allow units to shoot at enemy units that have just arrived on the battlefeld as reinforcements, as if it were the Shooting phase.

Q: If the unit arriving as reinforcements has another unit embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been set up (such as units embarked within a Drop Pod, or a Tyrannocyte), can the fring unit shoot at the unit as it disembarks?

A: No – though the unit can shoot at the Drop Pod/ Tyrannocyte before the units inside disembark."


So you can see word for word that the Drop Pod is "the unit arriving as reinforcements." Mephiston is "another unit embarked inside it which must disembark after it has been set up."

I argue that Mephiston is not bound by the restrictions imposed on the drop pod. When you set up Mephiston, you are setting him up as a disembarking unit, not as a unit arriving from reserves. I fully understand that he counts towards number of units in reserve, he didn't start the turn on the table, etc. But all I care about is Winging him in the Psychic phase, and the only thing stopping him from doing that is the rule saying a unit set up as reinforcements cannot move further. Well, that is the drop pod. Not Mephiston.

#14
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The pod has to land inside your DZ. Mephiston must disembark inside your DZ. He can the cast Wings and move outside your DZ.

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#15
Diagramdude

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Black Orange, yes, on turn one. How about on turn two? Can the pod land anywhere, and then Meph get out and Wings?



#16
Lynnean

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The rules for reinforcements say that when a unit is set up on the battlefeld as reinforcements, it cannot move or Advance further that turn, but can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.).

Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g. because of an ability such as The Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, or because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline, or because of a Stratagem like Metabolic Overdrive from Codex: Tyranids, etc.?
A: No.

Since wings is sorta like warptime, i'd say no. Kinda stupid, but apparently a no-go.

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#17
Brother Cruoris

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For me you kind of answered your own question in the FAQ post above.
If you can't cast Warptime on a unit then you shouldn't be able to use wings on him either.

#18
Diagramdude

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The crux of my argument is that when you "set up" Mephiston you are doing so as a Disembarking unit. Mephiston is not "set up on the battlefield as reinforcements." The Drop Pod is. Mephiston is set up as he disembarks from the drop pod, so he follows the rules for disembarking units, which are explicitly free to act normally for the rest of the turn, full stop.



#19
Majkhel

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I'm afraid we really can not decide here which rule takes precedence in this case: Reinforcement or Disembarking. This just isn't precise enough. What's in FAQ simply does not describe this particular situation. 
Your arguments, Diagramdude, are valid form me. RAW, this is a Drop Pod that is being set up on the battlefield using the Reinforcements rules. Drop Pod's passengers are using different rule. We all agree that said passengers are counting towards reinforcements, but technically they appear on the battlefield not using Reinforcements rules.


Edited by Majkhel, 03 September 2018 - 07:09 AM.

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#20
Vykes

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Lets look at the Drop Pod Assault ability.  "During Deployment, you can set this model, along with any units embarked within it, in orbit instead of placing it on the battlefield."  (Emphasis mine) 

 

And from the FAQ:  "Instead of being set up on the battlefield during Deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in Reserve, etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements..." 

 

Mephiston is a debarking unit, yes, but he was also a model set up using the Drop Pod Assault ability which says that the unit inside is also placed in orbit instead of the battlefield and thus arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements via the Drop Pod Assault ability and FAQ.  It's not just the standard debark ability (which does not force the models to debark unless the transport unit was destroyed).  Thus, the models within are part of the tactical reserves and must comply with the rules governing Tactical Reserves in addition to the rules for Disembarkation. The evidence for this is that the units embarked in tactical reserve 'reinforcement' vehicles are counted against the power level and unit numbers for determining the number of units that must be deployed during the deployment phase. 

 

I was thinking there might be some RAW  logical interpretation here (and I'm talking that model logic theory w╞ ◊ P garbage that I took and promptly forgot in Uni) but I don't even think that it's a possible interpretation anymore.  The units inside the drop pod are part of the subset of the FAQ ruling by dint of being directly implicated in the Drop Pod Assault ability which includes Disembarking but also contains additional strictures.  The evidence is the Auspex stategem which says that the unit may not be shot and it only keys to the Tactical Reserve rule itself.  But I argue that the strategem is the exception, not the rule nor the precedent. 

 

This is a different situation than the hypothetical "Land in a drop pod, debark, wait a turn to embark in another transport.  Next turn debark, use the Wings of Sanguinius". 


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#21
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Moved to the OR as it's predominantly a rules question and a neutral view wouldn't go amiss at this point.

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#22
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

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I don't see how the auspex ruling has any bearing on any of this. It doesn't make the unit disembarking *not* reinforcements, it merely restricts the use of the auspex (and is probably intended only to curb the use of auspex to utterly ruin any deep striking, not as a commentary on the relative status of a reinforcing unit).

 

Mephy arrives as reinforcements, and so is bound by any and all rules that cover that. He just happens to arrive in his personal pod rather than walking on his own two legs. No Wings for him.

 

EDIT: A question. If Mephy is in a pod, does he count agains the number of units on the table or the number of units in reserves? If the latter, he is reinforcements, and thus restricted.


Edited by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra, 03 September 2018 - 08:12 PM.

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#23
Mr. Shine

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Disembarking models are explicitly set up on the battlefield. A unit disembarking as a result of Drop Pod Assault is therefore arriving as reinforcements and being set up on the battlefield mid-turn, so cannot move or Advance further that turn.
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#24
Vykes

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...

 

EDIT: A question. If Mephy is in a pod, does he count agains the number of units on the table or the number of units in reserves? If the latter, he is reinforcements, and thus restricted.

 

Aye, as Mr. Shine (and I) alluded to earlier, when set up in a pod Mephy is part of the number of unit (and power level) that count as being part of reinforcements.  They are set aside 'in orbit' with the pod and set up later, thus are reinforcements. 


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#25
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

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...

 

EDIT: A question. If Mephy is in a pod, does he count agains the number of units on the table or the number of units in reserves? If the latter, he is reinforcements, and thus restricted.

 

Aye, as Mr. Shine (and I) alluded to earlier, when set up in a pod Mephy is part of the number of unit (and power level) that count as being part of reinforcements.  They are set aside 'in orbit' with the pod and set up later, thus are reinforcements. 

 

Indeed. A highly leading question aimed at OP. Really, this isn't rocket science.


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