Angel of Solitude Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Previously, I've always skipped straight past this stratagem because from what I can gather, Land Speeders aren't exactly a great choice in 8th edition, and nor are Whirlwinds. However, I then had the realisation that I am actually taking landspeeders in my army - Sammael, Talonmaster and Darkshroud! D'oh! So requirement 1 of the stratagem is already complete. Requirement 2 is having a Whirlwind. The vengeance launcher seems the better choice - S7, AP-1 D2 is basically an autocannon profile. 2D3 is fewer shots than the 8 shots of a Rifleman dread, but you gain the benefit of not needing line of sight AND you get a superior range (72"), all for 104 points. So Sammy/Talonmaster would be the active land speeder, stick a Lt next to the Whirlwind for re-roll wounds and this seems like a nice unit to take out backfield campers / lightly armoured vehicles. So...anybody had any success with this combination? Any views on units that might do this role better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Yes. Tons. I use the whirlwind with castellan missiles, though. At S6 AP-1, but 2D6 autohits, I tend to prefer this configuration, to kill chaff that is obnoxiously out of bike reach, to finish off squads shot by bikes, and to clear paths for DW units. S7 AP-1 D2 sounds good, but most W2 units will have a T of 4 or better, whilst most units with 1 you can find at T3 or lower. This a generalization, of course, but in my experience you will wound more against single wound squads than double wound squads. Against those I'd rather go with weapons such as overcharged plasma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Did they change the weapon profiles? They should be: 2d3 s7 ap-1 2D 2D6 S6 ap0 1D They may not be a great options, but with character LandSpeeder? It's certainly intriguing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Sorry yes.my bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hantheman Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Also works with the forgeworld scorpius whirlwind which is pretty tasty on the whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel of Solitude Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 Berzul - as ever, thanks for the comments. I get idea of instead taking the Castellan, but I wonder if the AP0 profile won't be as effective as I would want it to be against units in cover - I'm thinking Dark Reapers here. I was also thinking that S7 would give an edge against T6 vehicles, but after looking, there are surprisingly few T6 units out there. Still, your comments mean that I'll at least experiment a bit with it. Hantheman - yes, I'd seen that option and thought it was tasty. Two things though: (1) if it fires twice, do you treat that as 6D3 auto-hit shots, or 3D3 auto-hit and 3D3 regular hits? (2) has it be resolved about how "Whirlwind" does not appear to be the WHIRLWIND keywork in the strategem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I am matHamming this out, whirlwind dosent seems efficient compared to my usual choices for the same job, more on that later. The issue of the stratagem working with the whirlwind datasheet instead of keyword is still indecisive. but personally, since they made the "land speeder" and "whirlwind" reference in diferent format, I would rule its the land speeder keyword and the Whirlwind datasheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordwulf77 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I've emailed asking about the Scorpius Whirlwind and was told no, the stratagem can't work with it. It is the specific datasheet called Whirlwind. The datasheet is referred to in title case. As opposed to the keyword LANDSPEEDER which is referred to in all capitals, Real shame, I had gotten it for this purpose with the same line of thinking as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berzul Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Berzul - as ever, thanks for the comments. I get idea of instead taking the Castellan, but I wonder if the AP0 profile won't be as effective as I would want it to be against units in cover - I'm thinking Dark Reapers here. I was also thinking that S7 would give an edge against T6 vehicles, but after looking, there are surprisingly few T6 units out there. Still, your comments mean that I'll at least experiment a bit with it. Hantheman - yes, I'd seen that option and thought it was tasty. Two things though: (1) if it fires twice, do you treat that as 6D3 auto-hit shots, or 3D3 auto-hit and 3D3 regular hits? (2) has it be resolved about how "Whirlwind" does not appear to be the WHIRLWIND keywork in the strategem? Yeah, lack of AP can be a bother, but consider that the Whirlwind's real value is in the no line of sight needed ability. That is something we haver very little access to. You can focus this unit in clearing screens that would otherwise be inaccessible to your main army, spport squads that feel safe behind LoS covering terrain, and such. FOr instance, I have used them to great effect versus Necron Scarabs and T'au Drone Squads, because this are units often times will move a lot around the board and will not always be hiding behind cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Relic Scorpius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hantheman Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 I've emailed asking about the Scorpius Whirlwind and was told no, the stratagem can't work with it. It is the specific datasheet called Whirlwind. The datasheet is referred to in title case. As opposed to the keyword LANDSPEEDER which is referred to in all capitals, Real shame, I had gotten it for this purpose with the same line of thinking as you. What a shame. Back to the massive pile of completely useless stratagems we have. Looking back, our codex really was poorly designed overall. Keep most of the Space Marine rubbish and get one or two unique strats that are worth while. Gives us very little identity on the board unless you go full ravenwing (doable) or deathwing (RIP) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 I've emailed asking about the Scorpius Whirlwind and was told no, the stratagem can't work with it. It is the specific datasheet called Whirlwind. The datasheet is referred to in title case. As opposed to the keyword LANDSPEEDER which is referred to in all capitals, Real shame, I had gotten it for this purpose with the same line of thinking as you. What a shame. Back to the massive pile of completely useless stratagems we have. Looking back, our codex really was poorly designed overall. Keep most of the Space Marine rubbish and get one or two unique strats that are worth while. Gives us very little identity on the board unless you go full ravenwing (doable) or deathwing (RIP) Sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 I did a lot of number crunching with the whirlwhind castellan. I will save you most of the numbers and go strait to conclusion. It will not supprise anyone. Assuming light armored target, and im looking at damage / point. and long range: its better than bolters, not as good as assault canon or heavy bolters. These 2 option are close to x2 efficiency. Assuming closer range, rapid fire bolters becomes better, nearly equal to the heavy bolters or assault canon. Whirlwind falls behind. Assuming telemetry is activated, whirlwinds come back in the game with a big improvement, but they do not outclass any other options. In the end, they may provide some utility if you value the range or the indirect fire. They are out classed in my opinion by razorbacks and RW bike that offer more utility without needing CP to do the same jobs. If Telemetry was a basic rule rather than a stratagem or if it would give another little bonus whirlwind would be an interesting choice for DA gunlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clumsy_explorer Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 About poor ol' Whirlwind, maybe H-K missile can help with Datalink Telemetry Stratagem as it would hit automatically against the same single target.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Its an interesting proposition so I have run the numbers on the Vengence + hunter killer and compared it to other heavy shooting options against T7 / T8 3+ 5++. Here is the summary, numbers are unsaved wounds / 100 point spent. *all heavy weapons are calculated on devastator T7 T8 plasma canon 1.19 0.8 no telemetry WW 1.25 0.76 vengence 1.82 1.21 no telemetry WW+HK 2.18 1.43 plasma C. + overcharge 3.18 2.39 vengence + HK 3.23 2.27 las-canon 4.33 3.23 Plasma C. + OC + WofDA 4.77 3.58 HellBlaster + OC + WotDA 2.69 / 5.40 2.02 / 4.04 Inceptor + OC + WotDA 6.03 4.52 What we find is that Hunter Killer missile are good when auto-hitting. They make the whirlwind a decent option for a turn, then its back to mediocrity. There could be value in the whirlwind: the long LoS ignoring range is valuable enough to forgive low output, after all its likely they will be around later in the game. They could complement a Gunline by giving you more way to spend your command point. However, the 12” landspeeder requirement is harsh. You cannot hold on the HK making it hard to acquire a good target. while it is possible to make them work, its certainly more trouble than its worth. however it seems plasma inceptor are actually a very good unit option. T7 T8 Inceptor 1.51 1.00 Inceptor + OC 4.02 3.01 Inceptor + OC + WotDA 6.03 4.52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaneos Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Wow it seems plasma inceptors pack quite the punch! Can't wait to get some of my own.Thanks for doing the numbers.I think whirlwinds are 'cool', after reading all this I kinda wish they were slightly stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Just remember that there is a lot "pure" numbers do not account for. Its easier for a devastator to hit a good target at 36" than to get a squad of Hellblaster within 15" also whirwind and devastator have random number of shots, which mean the averages may swing wildly more than that of the HellBlasters or Las-Canon. Those number's are /100 point spent, while a plasma canon is more point efficient at long range than hellBlaster (4.77 VS 2.69) a unit of dev. may only include 4 canons while HellBlaster have up to 10 guys. a unit of 10 hell blaster is a better target for WotDA than a unit of 4 PC dev even at 30" since you are buffing more points. (VS T7 with WotDA, 4 plasma canon average 6.48 W and HellBlaster 8.87W) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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