Dynamic Swordsmanship

[Company Master Holden]

Hello all! 

 

I come to you with a question on the eve of a potential project!

 

I have gotten my grubby hands on some space marine legs that look like they are jumping and leaping in preparation for creating a small Flesh Tearer Vanguard force for my existing Dark Angels army. Command of this detachment will be shared between Seth and a nameless Jump Pack Lieutenant with a Power Sword. I had an idea while getting my materials laid out about having him leaping off a piece of scenery on his base with his sword held high over his head, like he is preparing to execute someone. 

 

After experimenting with the bits that I had, I found that every attempt I made ended in failure. I am not very good with greenstuff, but I still gave it a try that night and couldn't come up with anything that looked all that great. 

 

So my question is, have any of ya'll done a similar conversion? If so, how did you do it? Are there any third party conversion kits that could help with this process? 

 

I apologize if this has already been asked, and thanks in advance for your time!!

 

PS I am also going to attach a picture of some artwork that kind of captures what I am talking about. The Gabriel Seth model is also close to what I'm looking for, but I really want the sword more over the head than anything else. 

 

[Closet Skeleton]

That stance is really dumb outside of executions where your target can't fight back.

 

Space marine heads being on the large side of in scale with their bodies makes over head arm poses hard to pull off. The anatomy in that picture isn't that accurate, raise your arms in various positions and check how your eye line relates to your elbows.

 

There aren't a lot of two handed sword arms. There's a Blood Angels sanguard one and the assault squad eviscerator. After that there's pretty much just the Grey Knight sprue. Closest I can think of to an execution pose would be the death company and Deathwatch thunder hammers or the sanguinary guard axe. Outside of plastic of course there's Astorath.

 

Heck, Astorath is in finecast so its easy to hack him apart and give him a leg and head swap. The hands on his axe are even close enough together to put a sword blade in there. I've given him an arm swap in the past so you could just cut his arms off and put them on a plastic body.

[Company Master Holden]

It can’t be any dumber than some of the poses that GW does, and since I plan on sorta alternating between him as a lieutenant and a captain and giving him the Black Rage stratagem for narrative purposes, I think my pose idea will capture that well. It’s all in the eye of the beholder!

 

Yeah I ran into that same two handed sword problem! There are some third party websites I looked at but unfortunately I never saw the end result of their hands and arms in action. I honestly hadn’t even thought about using Astorarh, which should have been a given. I just hate to chop up a good Astorath, but that pose is what I want, and I like his armor style quite a bit as well. Could make for an interesting and stand out character on the battlefield if I’m clever enough!

[Lucio]

If you want to try an overhead pose, look at an Orruk 'Ardboy for the posing. What you'll see is that the arms are slightly bent at the elbows (about 30 degrees), and the underarms are extended.

 

The problem is there just aren't those sorts of arms in the Space Marine range, so what I'd suggest is either modifying your thought to turn the strike into a leaping lateral cut (take Grey Knight greatsword, twist the torso about 40 degrees off centre, lean down slightly) or consider modelling an older kit into the mix (Chaos Chosen), or finally look at third party parts like this

 

http://anvilindustry.co.uk/The-Armoury/Close-Combat-Weapons/Double-Handed-Weapons

 

Hope that gives you some ideas!

[Ovidius Incertus]

The heavy chainswords from FW (in the Mk IV and Mk II/III upgrade kits) give you a two-handed sword grip, but neither is meant to be posed over the head.  I'd suspect scale would really get in your way with either of those bits and, as said above, the head would seriously get in your way without a repose of some sort.

 

Astorath is still the best option if you don't want to do too much original work in reposing.

[Grotsmasha]

First of all, the conversion steps I'm going to suggest will be pointless if you don't have a razor saw as a you'll need to use everything you cut and a knife won't give you two straight edges like a razor saw.

The biggest problem with that pose is that SM arms aren't designed for it and don't have enough length to convert it.

 

Start with the hands, the top hand should be a closed CCW hand, the bottom hand can be either a closed or open/opening CCW hand. Now drill and loosely pin (but not glue...yet) them, as this will align them vertically, but allow rotation to properly attach to the wrists.

Next you'll need some extra length in the arms. There are two good placed to hide some plasti-card spacers, the first is at the top of the arm beneath the shoulder pad attachment area with a 1mm or 1.5mm spacer. The other spot is in wrist piece of mkVII armour, with the same 1mm or 1.5mm spacer.

Cut the spacers slightly larger than needed, and sand flat with a hobby file.

[Inquisitor Fox]

That stance is really dumb outside of executions where your target can't fight back.

 

Actually, it's not.  You have to have some training, but it's a fully valid swordsmanship stance, in both Eastern and Western styles.

 

Posta di Falcone.

 

Kingdom of Heaven has a good bit at it.  I know it exists in Kendo, but my training is classical fencing and historical reenactment/SCA.  It's very valid if you know what you're doing.

 

I'd suggest for the conversion looking at various Grey Knight arms as they at least are set up with a two handed grip.

[Stoic Raptor]

 

That stance is really dumb outside of executions where your target can't fight back.

 

Actually, it's not.  You have to have some training, but it's a fully valid swordsmanship stance, in both Eastern and Western styles.

I know it exists in Kendo, but my training is classical fencing and historical reenactment/SCA.  It's very valid if you know what you're doing.

 

I had an SCA fighter teaching me some swordplay and he said there was no way I could strike him while he was in that position without striking back.  I lunged in, knelt, and did a strike across his belly with my sword above my head and parallel to the ground.  Sadly for him, there was no way he could strike me from that position as I was able to strike without sacrificing my guard (as any good kendo position should and that position does not).  It might not be a legal move in formal kendo competition, but I agree with Closet Skeleton - it's a dumb thing to do in actual combat, and SCA combat isn't really a good comparison as no one would sacrifice a limb like they do and keep hopping around fighting.

[Semper Fortis]

Real life swordsmanship aside, I like the pose just for the rule of cool.

[Inquisitor Fox]

 

I had an SCA fighter teaching me some swordplay and he said there was no way I could strike him while he was in that position without striking back.  I lunged in, knelt, and did a strike across his belly with my sword above my head and parallel to the ground.  Sadly for him, there was no way he could strike me from that position as I was able to strike without sacrificing my guard (as any good kendo position should and that position does not).  It might not be a legal move in formal kendo competition, but I agree with Closet Skeleton - it's a dumb thing to do in actual combat, and SCA combat isn't really a good comparison as no one would sacrifice a limb like they do and keep hopping around fighting.

 

 

I'll have to respectfully agree to entirely disagree with the both of you based upon my own multiple decades of experience.  All three guards, low, middle and high, have their place and are entirely valid.  It's a rock/scissors/paper argument and what people often forget is you can't just do one thing all the time.  If you know where the attack is coming from, you can actually control the flow of the combat and your opponents actions by selectively leaving things open.  There's a reason it's mentioned in multiple schools and in actual training manuals from numerous authentic texts, written by people who actually did fight in "Actual combat."  To dismiss it as a dumb thing when period manuals by period experts who actually did actual combat for a living is not the correct approach.  There is no one answer and one true way, it's picking the correct tool for the correct moment and how things are flowing at the time.

 

That being said, I think your best bet would be to take Grey Knight arms, carefully separate them at the join between the couter and vambrace (just in front of the elbow) and use wire and pinning to reposition the forearms where you need them to be.

[Stercus]

Look at the sanguinary guard kit. There are a couple of pairs of arms in there where the two hands are gripping the weapon closely enough together to hold a sword in the manner you describe. I’ve done it with spears using the same parts and it looks pretty good.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'll have to respectfully agree to entirely disagree with the both of you based upon my own multiple decades of experience.  All three guards, low, middle and high, have their place and are entirely valid.  It's a rock/scissors/paper argument and what people often forget is you can't just do one thing all the time.  If you know where the attack is coming from, you can actually control the flow of the combat and your opponents actions by selectively leaving things open.  There's a reason it's mentioned in multiple schools and in actual training manuals from numerous authentic texts, written by people who actually did fight in "Actual combat."  

 

That's not a high guard, and I proved it to someone who has decades of experience in the same environment as you (Harald Ulfsson of the Northern Outpost).  Equally respectfully, your experience is not in actual combat either, and my strike was totally not something one would anticipate.  Had he adopted a more traditional stance, he would have been able to strike or guard against any attack, including this one (I know exactly how I'd have blocked the cut while striking against the open side).  But that stance simply cannot defend against a lateral attack below the waist.

 

Sure, there are people who fought in actual combat who write of these things - they are the ones lucky enough to survive such stupidity.  For every fighter who wrote how awesome that stance was, I'm sure there were countless others struck down for it.  As I've said before, SCA combat is a poor simulation of actual medieval engagement, and Eastern fencing doesn't do so well against kendo.  But that's just my experience with sparring against veteran SCA fighters.  Your mileage may vary, and you're free to disagree.  Lord Harald did before I opened his eyes (and his belly, in a virtual sense).

 

That said, Rule of Cool absolutely applies here.  I wouldn't mind seeing the final result.

[Naryn]

I’m inclined to agree with most of the thread, that Astorath is the best bet for this conversion, but it’s doable with some careful cutting and sculpting if you’re not fond of that idea. Longer arms, especially Primaris ones, cut at the joints and threaded together+reposed with careful drilling and wire, would serve well in this instance. After you have a stance you’re satisfied with, some greenstuffing can clean up the gaps this technique will leave.

 

Sure, there are people who fought in actual combat who write of these things - they are the ones lucky enough to survive such stupidity.

Not to jump in here, but what everyone keeps referring to as a “high guard” in this thread is attested in reputable fencing manuals spanning 300-odd years. If it was killing so many people, it probably wouldn’t have stayed in such high regard for multiple centuries, over generations of fencers and exhaustive testing in the form of many, many duels. As you say, SCA fighting is dramatically different and I’d argue irrelevant to either HEMA or the historical practice, and the encounter you keep referring to sounds like a failure of spacing on the part of your opponent, rather than a failing particular to the Vom Tag guard.

[Grotsmasha]

=] Guys, let's stick to the modelling question [=

[ShinyRhino]

There is a two handed sword pose in the original Vanguard Veterans set. A little tough to lay hands on, but it looks nice.

 

 

https://miniset.net/sets/gw-99110101391

[Quixus]

Look at the sanguinary guard kit. There are a couple of pairs of arms in there where the two hands are gripping the weapon closely enough together to hold a sword in the manner you describe. I’ve done it with spears using the same parts and it looks pretty good.

The one set of arms with a two-handed grip on a sword is totally silly