Designing a Space Marine Chapter: Swamp world?

[Kierdale]

Old fluff, but still good fluff (IMHO): Crotalids.

 

It might be worth a read :)

[Panzer]

Old fluff, but still good fluff (IMHO): Crotalids.

 

It might be worth a read

 

While reading that they are found all over the galaxy I was about to ask how that's possible unless they're kept as pets or something ... then I read that after being done eating everything they could find they do random warp travel to a different random planet ... like what? 

Then I read that such a warp traveling group is about 100+ big. Imagine such a group randomly appearing in your street. 

[Beta galactosidase]

Whirlwinds and thunderfires would have to be very prominent in a chapter like this. Air power is even more important, so much so that the air power units have separate hierarchy and promotion from the ground artillery and jungle infantry units. The flyers should also be important because the very dangerous, heavily armed, and often brutal ground patrols have a chapter cult that they practice by turning their missions into hunting and meditation retreats instead of engaging the enemy.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Whirlwinds and thunderfires would have to be very prominent in a chapter like this. Air power is even more important

I agree.

so much so that the air power units have separate hierarchy and promotion from the ground artillery and jungle infantry units.

Do you intend to have the Chapter's flyers under their naval (void warfare and orbital support) officers' command, and give pilots naval ranks, e.g., "Chief Petty Officer" instead of "Sergeant"?

the very dangerous, heavily armed, and often brutal ground patrols have a chapter cult that they practice by turning their missions into hunting and meditation retreats instead of engaging the enemy.

This seems unprofessional, i.e., the opposite of how a Marine should act. A Marine must always put his mission above all other considerations in priority- above his arms and armor and all other belongings, above his honor and all other measures of self-worth, above his own life as well as those of his battle-brothers and Imperial allies- if his Chapter is to claim victory.

 

If a Marine spares the enemy for tactical reasons- to avoid alerting them as he scouts an enemy position in anticipation of a future attack- so be it. If he spares the enemy for personal reasons- he doesn't want to interrupt his meditations or otherwise cut down his "me time"- then he SUCKS as a Marine and a servant of the Emperor.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

the very dangerous, heavily armed, and often brutal ground patrols have a chapter cult that they practice by turning their missions into hunting and meditation retreats instead of engaging the enemy.

This seems unprofessional, i.e., the opposite of how a Marine should act. A Marine must always put his mission above all other considerations in priority- above his arms and armor and all other belongings, above his honor and all other measures of self-worth, above his own life as well as those of his battle-brothers and Imperial allies- if his Chapter is to claim victory.

 

If a Marine spares the enemy for tactical reasons- to avoid alerting them as he scouts an enemy position in anticipation of a future attack- so be it. If he spares the enemy for personal reasons- he doesn't want to interrupt his meditations or otherwise cut down his "me time"- then he SUCKS as a Marine and a servant of the Emperor.

 

 

Ah yes, the famed "only way Marines should ever act". That must be why the Unforgiven constantly abandon friendly forces to hunt the Fallen and steadfastly refuse to fight alongside abhumans, why the Space Wolves are so invested in their sagas and honour to the point of starting a cold war with the Inquisition, and the sons of Dorn and Vulkan are almost suicidal in their refusal to retreat. There's absolutely no examples in the fluff at all of Marines putting things above an impassionate following of the mission requirements, and absolutely never open fire on their own allies because they're "weak", like the Iron Hands do. They'll also never refuse to engage the enemy because their card tricks said it wasn't the right time, like the Silver Skulls. 

Marines have always been insane in that regard, always putting their own honour first, or their weird interpretations of the Imperial creed, etc.

To get back more on point though, I'd more interpreted Beta's comment as that the ground patrols still hunt the enemy, but do it according to their Chapter cult. They don't engage in warfare, they engage in hunts, almost like the White Scars.

[Beta galactosidase]

Yeah marines do all kinds of things. There are canon chapters that care about personal kill counts more than winning, there are ones that only fight if there's something to steal.

There should be two things that the space gator infantry do.  One is that they go massacre enemies even when that's strategically a waste of time. The BA successors definitely go off the leash sometimes and do this, even when it means they get distracted from their real objectives. It's characterful and canonical and it's not much in the way of new ground.

Sometimes instead of doing that, they should do something else. In the historical period we're looking at here, infantry companies would be sent on search-and-destroy missions, essentially patrols. Many times, companies would decide to do something called search-and-avoid instead, where they'd set on on patrol, but instead of seeking the enemy they'd hide out and get high for a few days, then come back on schedule. This is something to absorb and account for in the chapter.

Marines aren't going to do exactly that because they love fighting. However, they have rituals for combat, and religious attitudes about their recreational dueling, feasting, and blood rituals.  Instead of going on search-and-avoid missions, the infantry line marines should sometimes decide that they're really going to savor the experience of being on the battlefield, away from the confines of monastic life.  They can temporarily mislay their orders, and instead they can range around the battlefield, literally hunting game animals, as marines often do, and also hunting enemy units for sport, going out singly or in small parties to see who can bring back the corpse of the most fearsome enemy but without actually doing the mission.  Then they can go back, say very honestly that they were fighting the enemy, and the next time they go on a mission they play it straight.
 

Do you intend to have the Chapter's flyers under their naval (void warfare and orbital support) officers' command,

 

yeah, pretty much.  I believe in the codex system, where there aren't any separate fleet officers. However in this chapter, maybe marines either join the seventh company they become part of an air corps for life, or if they join the sixth company instead they become infantry grunts, with two different cults.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ehhh... I can't see Marines purposefully avoiding the enemy, at least just to get "away from the confines of monastic life". The one thing that all Marines are is focussed on their duty. They might interpret that duty differently, but they literally have their brains rewired to view their purpose in life as to fight the enemies of the Emperor.

I could see them regarding warfare as a hunt, but definitely not going off-mission just to get away, to come back a week later saying "well, we killed an enemy squad".

 

Also, Chapters that fight only if there's something to steal? That doesn't exactly fit any Chapter I'm aware of, other than maybe meme-ified Blood Ravens.

[Beta galactosidase]

Ok.

[Panzer]

Yeah there's a HUGE difference between a Marine not doing something as efficiently as possible because he enjoys doing it differently and a Marine simply not doing something because he doesn't want to.

All the examples Lord_Caerolion listed are about Marines still doing their duty of protecting mankind, even if they don't follow the mission book to the letter. Leaving the combat zone to meditate or hunt random stuff is not even close to being the same kind of behaviour. That's straight traitor behaviour and a sure way to fall into the hands of Slaanesh eventually (meditating can quickly get twisted into just being lazy and chilling around etc and prioritizing personal enjoyment over duty doesn't need huge knowledge of the warp to see where that leads).

 

tl;dr it's perfectly fine when Marines combine personal believes and preferences with their duty. It's NOT okay when Marines prioritize personal believes and preferences over their duty!

 

 

Yeah marines do all kinds of things. There are canon chapters that care about personal kill counts more than winning, there are ones that only fight if there's something to steal.

There should be two things that the space gator infantry do.  One is that they go massacre enemies even when that's strategically a waste of time. The BA successors definitely go off the leash sometimes and do this, even when it means they get distracted from their real objectives. It's characterful and canonical and it's not much in the way of new ground.
 

That's not even remotely the same. Blood Angels suffer from the Red Thirst and when they do something like that it's not their concious decision, it's the Red Thirst taking over and them acting purely on that.

[Triszin]

so on thinking about this for a little.

 

so Heavy equipment and really heavy infantry* would not be in this chapters arsenal most of the time.

they would use light troops, fast moving troops, and a heavy reliance on grav/airsupport and indirect fire, whether it be artillary, flamers, missiles.

 

so from primaris:

out of 100 marines

- 40 reivers

- 30 inceptors

- 10 flame aggressors

- 20 intercessors

 

vehicles

- Repulsor

 

so from normal marines

-out of 100 marines

- 30 assault (jump pack) marines

- 50 scouts ( veteran and beginners)

- 5 terminators

- 15 ( either devastators of normal marines)

 

vehicles

land speeders

whirlwinds

storm talons and other airsupport ships

 

I think they would have an unsually high number of tech marines and a large amount of Thunderfire cannons

 

 

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I dont think you'd see dreadnaughts, as they are to heavy and they would sink and get stuck in the mud

same reason why i dont think we would see many marine transports, no rhinos, no landriaders

 

----

 

I think tactic wise, they would be "ambush" style.

 

either set traps and set up mock FoB's with the normal marines and heavy troops as the targets, and surround it with its stealthy scouts and reivers, and thunderfires.

 

baiting an enemy to attack

 

 

and when assaulting would use an extreme amount of thunderfire and air support

 

I think this chapter would have a close relationship with the astra militarum and frequently use mortar teams and astras air support for strafes.

[Trevak Dal]

Honestly, since Marines rarely keep fighting on their home planet alone it means they can and should have any units in use other chapters use as well. It makes no sense for a force that fights in multiple different warzones to be restricted to their home planets environment. That's like saying Blood Angels are (radioactive-) desert fighters and Space Wolves only fight where it's super cold and snowy.

 

For a theme tho it's a neat idea and I second what others said about a focus on anti-grav, "sneaky" units like Scouts and Reiver, flyer, flamer and artillery. Basically Catachan but as Marines.

That's one of the hardest things about coming up with lore and background for space marines because at their core, loyalist and traitors alike, they are all able to do the same stuff: rapid theater insertion, irregular special operations warfare.

 

Astartes were made to punk on normal humans and aliens, being big and fast for how big they are. They could be based off a idealistic hive world where there is no pollution or crime or waste at all, based on Bostonians and would still prosecute a planetfall or assault on a entrenched position or defend an area similarly. Loyalists have the excellent Codex Astartes and the Tactica Imperialis (don't know if I'm getting that right...the general military guidelines for The AM and other imperial forces?) To pull from, plus their own commander's experiences.

 

So when I say "the Nightblades specialize in asset retrieval and hit and run operations" I'm saying my guys do what other space marines warbands/chapters can do. It's a product of their training regimine (done like Alpha Legion by teams, mission first, and recruits are mind wiped like Grey Knight recruits before implantation, and squads spend long periods in cryo sleep, and can rapidly replace losses from suitable stock-one of the reason for the mindwipe is so there won't be any lingering personality from their time before.)

 

It had little to do with their homeworld, because they have no homeworld, no culture. .

[Lucien Eilam]

So far you’ve sort of designed the Raptors. What makes this Chapter distinctive from the better known scout-and-speeder heavy, camouflaged ambush Marines?

[Triszin]

So far you’ve sort of designed the Raptors. What makes this Chapter distinctive from the better known scout-and-speeder heavy, camouflaged ambush Marines?

no dreadnaughts, and no heavy tracked tank save 1?

 

it is a good and legitmate question though, perhaps add a dash of out lasting targets. literally wait for the enemy command structure to sink into the swamp?

 

so a mixture of attrition through isolating the enemy and cutting off supply. and terror tactics, where the reivers and scouts, make it look like local fauna and wildlife were responsible for killing squads?

 

then after a few weeks/ months this chapter leaves. and they leave the enemy in such a state of paranoia that they dont realize the marines left for years? starving to death, allowing the catachans to come in and clean up with little to no resistance?

[BitsHammer]

Gator wrestling should be a chapter tradition. Only make the Gators about three times larger, and have teeth that can break power armour and the Marine does it without armour.

 

I feel like instead of being like the Raptors (who like to use sniping as a means of ambush) these guys would be more like actual Gators: ambush predators who grab hold, drag you into combat and then "death roll" you until your corpse is a broken mess. It should be fast, incredibly violent and end with the bodies stashed away somewhere before anyone knows what just happened.

 

EDIT: Also aquatic ambushes and operations could be a specialty. I mean where there is life in 40k there is often water in some fashion or another (even if it's a reclamation facility), taking advantage of that could be a chapter trait.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

 

 

So far you’ve sort of designed the Raptors. What makes this Chapter distinctive from the better known scout-and-speeder heavy, camouflaged ambush Marines?

no dreadnaughts, and no heavy tracked tank save 1?

Heavy armor may be of limited use, but it will be absolutely critical within those limits- as mounts for long-range artillery, as battering rams to break down enemy fortifications, as transports that are simultaneously fast (faster than walking, anyways) and stealthy (stealthier than a flyer blazing through the sky during atmospheric reentry, anyways).

it is a good and legitmate question though, perhaps add a dash of out lasting targets. literally wait for the enemy command structure to sink into the swamp?

 

so a mixture of attrition through isolating the enemy and cutting off supply. and terror tactics, where the reivers and scouts, make it look like local fauna and wildlife were responsible for killing squads?

 

then after a few weeks/ months this chapter leaves. and they leave the enemy in such a state of paranoia that they dont realize the marines left for years? starving to death, allowing the catachans to come in and clean up with little to no resistance?

Great ideas!

Gator wrestling should be a chapter tradition. Only make the Gators about three times larger, and have teeth that can break power armour and the Marine does it without armour.

Should the Marines ride gators into battle, the way Space Wolves ride Thunderwolves? Gators suck as ground transports (see the MythBusters episode where they try and fail to make an alligator/crocodile chase prey out of the water), but they may work as stealthy amphibious delivery vehicles.

I feel like instead of being like the Raptors (who like to use sniping as a means of ambush) these guys would be more like actual Gators: ambush predators who grab hold, drag you into combat and then "death roll" you until your corpse is a broken mess. It should be fast, incredibly violent and end with the bodies stashed away somewhere before anyone knows what just happened.

Such an attack is unlikely to be stealthy or quiet- the targets will likely scream in terror and pain- but it should crush enemy morale quite efficiently and effectively.

[BitsHammer]

The initial attack followed by the disappearance of the now dead target (in likely seconds) would put the fear of the Emperor into the unfortunate Heretic.

 

And yes, riding gators (in aquatic conditions) would be pretty awesome. I mean, imagine raising something like that. Starts off hatching the size of a medium sized dog and by the time it's tamed and trained its the size of a car and a lot tougher (and angrier).

[Panzer]

Sounds like what you want is an army of Reiver lol

[Lucien Eilam]

Imagine a column of renegade guard advancing cautiously through the swamp. An ominous glow beneath the mirrored pools around them. Escaping marsh gas froths the surface, then ignites in a wave of eerie green flame as melta cutters breach and flash-vaporise the water. Officers are shouting orders in alarm, but it’s already too late.

 

A rain of precision artillery and quad mortar fire sows chaos as Marines disembark from their Termites and stalk through obscuring clouds of billowing steam, auto-senses lighting up their targets. The fog-muffled, rippling thunderclaps of bolter fire, hissing meltaguns, and screaming chainswords herald the traitors being cut down, while the bark of Astartes shotguns marks camo-cloaked Scouts concealed in the undergrowth, executing any who try to flee.

 

It’s over in seconds. Native scavengers drag the corpses under, as pooling blood is swirled away into muck by the Termites’ withdrawal. Scouts ghost away to their next waypoint. Only burning transport hulks remain to indicate anyone was ever there.

 

Riding alligators are silly. Termite Assault Drills are awesome.

 

I think, like the Space Sharks, alligators and cod Latin is going to be an uphill battle to make cool. Maybe put a mythological spin on it. The Marines Behemoth?

[BitsHammer]

Termites would be a good way to give them that "ambush from below" feeling.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Imagine a column of renegade guard advancing cautiously through the swamp. An ominous glow beneath the mirrored pools around them. Escaping marsh gas froths the surface, then ignites in a wave of eerie green flame as melta cutters breach and flash-vaporise the water. Officers are shouting orders in alarm, but it’s already too late.

 

A rain of precision artillery and quad mortar fire sows chaos as Marines disembark from their Termites and stalk through obscuring clouds of billowing steam, auto-senses lighting up their targets. The fog-muffled, rippling thunderclaps of bolter fire, hissing meltaguns, and screaming chainswords herald the traitors being cut down, while the bark of Astartes shotguns marks camo-cloaked Scouts concealed in the undergrowth, executing any who try to flee.

 

It’s over in seconds. Native scavengers drag the corpses under, as pooling blood is swirled away into muck by the Termites’ withdrawal. Scouts ghost away to their next waypoint. Only burning transport hulks remain to indicate anyone was ever there.

This is quite imaginative. I commend your writing skills.

Riding alligators are silly.

I disagree. There are rare situations where riding an alligator/crocodile would make sense. Imagine Primaris Reivers using Machimosaurs the way US Navy SEALs use SEAL Delivery Vehicles, to stealthily infiltrate a beachhead- and succeeding, as the sensors intended to alert the defenders to such infiltration, are optimized against Chimeras and other conventional (metal) amphibious vehicles, not against wildlife.

I think, like the Space Sharks, alligators and cod Latin is going to be an uphill battle to make cool. Maybe put a mythological spin on it. The Marines Behemoth?

I suggested "Machimosaurs Astra," after an extinct crocodyliform whose name is derived from the Greek word Makhimos, "fit or ready for war" (according to Wikipedia).

 

While we're focusing on alligators/crocodiles, how about giving the Chapter a nemesis with a metal hook replacing his hand- an Ork Freebooter named "Kaptin Hook," or a Chaos Space Marine (from the Iron Warriors or the Emperor's Children) named "Captain Jaime Garfio"- who secretly fears the Chapter's "pets"?

[Panzer]

I somehow doubt the viability of a heavy drill in a swamp area. Drills are more fitting for proper ground that doesn't collapse and flood while you are beneath it. :D

[BitsHammer]

I somehow doubt the viability of a heavy drill in a swamp area. Drills are more fitting for proper ground that doesn't collapse and flood while you are beneath it.

While true, it doesn't mean they can't have them as a means of ambush in theaters of war where they can't take advantage of swampy terrain.

 

And I could see these guys having modified power armour that allows them to move through water and the like more effectively. Maybe something like the Reiver armour were it's less bulky.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, power armour is meant to be air-tight. Wasn't there fluff in an old White Dwarf about a Chaos warband where one of its notable battles was entirely at the bottom of an ocean?

[Panzer]

Marines can even fight on the outside of a space ship if they maglock on to the hull. So yeah it's air-tight.

[Brother Casman]

Well, power armour is meant to be air-tight. Wasn't there fluff in an old White Dwarf about a Chaos warband where one of its notable battles was entirely at the bottom of an ocean?

 

 

Marines can even fight on the outside of a space ship if they maglock on to the hull. So yeah it's air-tight.

Two vastly different pressure gradients there, power armour is quite impressive!

 

That said, given that the proposed Marines are expected to be fighting in the shallows, I expect that air-tight is probably good enough for most operations.