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Thousand Sons popularity and usage at different events

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#26
Skerr

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I agree with much with what i read.

Unless it was all ready mentioned...

Expensive units, i know we are elite though i want to add in some armor but then feel i am short on boots on the ground.

Wish our SO Sorcerers could buff SOTs more diversely.

I don't go to tournaments but keep up online and the cheery picking is ripe.

I am still painting as i play non competitive with bros though Kill Team offers hope as well.

I dont mind the tzangoors at all but agree we dont have enough rubrics and the goats can often outclass rubrics being cheaper. Skyfire really.

Looking forward to a retooling 1 day.

Edited by Skerr, 10 September 2018 - 10:17 PM.


#27
Tyriks

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I agree with much with what i read.
Unless it was all ready mentioned...
Expensive units, i know we are elite though i want to add in some armor but then feel i am short on boots on the ground.
Wish our SO Sorcerers could buff SOTs more diversely.
I don't go to tournaments but keep up online and the cheery picking is ripe.
I am still painting as i play non competitive with bros though Kill Team offers hope as well.
I dont mind the tzangoors at all but agree we dont have enough rubrics and the goats can often outclass rubrics being cheaper. Skyfire really.
Looking forward to a retooling 1 day.

I wouldn't mind if Aspiring Sorcerers and SO sorcerers couldn't pick normal spells but rather picked buffs for their squads.

#28
Kite Senet

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I'd personally rather have Aspiring Sorcerers actually casting spells. They're supposed to represent...well, aspiring Sorcerers, after all, so surely they'd have the same general function.

 

That said, it doesn't seem terribly worth it to use the casting potential of Aspiring Sorcerers currently given the stupidly high cost of their perils, so they're already not really getting used much as Sorcerers anyway (for me anyway).

 

Out of curiosity, since Heliomanes mentioned axes on Sorcerers and SOTs: how much are we able to inherit from Index: Chaos? I myself built an axe-wielding Sorcerer in Terminator Armor (since, you know, the options come in the box) and I don't really understand whether or not he's legally able to be played as a Thousand Sons Sorcerer in Terminator Armor or not. (I fear not, but I hope to be wrong.)



#29
DominikB

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I'd personally rather have Aspiring Sorcerers actually casting spells. They're supposed to represent...well, aspiring Sorcerers, after all, so surely they'd have the same general function.

That said, it doesn't seem terribly worth it to use the casting potential of Aspiring Sorcerers currently given the stupidly high cost of their perils, so they're already not really getting used much as Sorcerers anyway (for me anyway).

Out of curiosity, since Heliomanes mentioned axes on Sorcerers and SOTs: how much are we able to inherit from Index: Chaos? I myself built an axe-wielding Sorcerer in Terminator Armor (since, you know, the options come in the box) and I don't really understand whether or not he's legally able to be played as a Thousand Sons Sorcerer in Terminator Armor or not. (I fear not, but I hope to be wrong.)


Codex is power sword (single or double (+1Att and not in the kit tbh)) or force staff, with force sword an option from the index

Otherwise inferno, plasma or warp pistol and disc as options

#30
Ahzek451

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It really comes down to 3 major issues with our codex that GW needs to address. 

 

Points cost.

Psychic powers.

Lack of 15th legion units (rubricae, warmachines, etc.) vs. monsters and bird people(I don't mind having these units). 

 

At this point I feel if GW were to do anything, it would be points costs and some small power tweeks. It might be 1-4 years before we get a new model. Everything beyond that is probably not likely. 

 

Having said that, one thing I wish GW would do and have been urging them to do to make our vehicles feel more...Tzeentchy and less like generic chaos unit with a T.sons paint scheme, is allowing Daemonic warmachines like the heldrake, defiler, maulerfiend, and forgefiend access to the the Mark of Tzeentch ability Tzeentch daemons have aka +1 invulnerable save. I feel all daemons of "___" should be given access to the default god ability they should have.

 

And I get why the only way to upgrade our guns on vehicles is via command points(it's an easy add-on) so as to not change the datasheet....but I am not sure why this is so much an issue. At the end of the day, it is still a Thousand Sons Rhino in the keywords. And I know it can't be too bad of a modeling issue since they are ok with converting Thousand son sorcerer terminators. They already tweeked the rules by taking away the ability to use a combi-plas, ok then.....give us the option to upgrade any bolt weapon on a vehicle for x amount of points then instead of using command points. Or hell...make it a part of the legion trait...all bolt weapons are -2 ap on thousand sons vehicles.

 

 

Hell...I would settle to just adjusting SOT and rubric points cost and fixing the damn scrolls....voted most worthless codex relic ever? 


Edited by Ahzek451, 11 September 2018 - 12:22 PM.

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#31
Skerr

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I'm with you on the vehicles... when 8th lost the old vehicle damage table and crew shaken and stunned went bye bye, demonic possession lost utility.

#32
Tyriks

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I'd personally rather have Aspiring Sorcerers actually casting spells. They're supposed to represent...well, aspiring Sorcerers, after all, so surely they'd have the same general function.
 
That said, it doesn't seem terribly worth it to use the casting potential of Aspiring Sorcerers currently given the stupidly high cost of their perils, so they're already not really getting used much as Sorcerers anyway (for me anyway).
 
Out of curiosity, since Heliomanes mentioned axes on Sorcerers and SOTs: how much are we able to inherit from Index: Chaos? I myself built an axe-wielding Sorcerer in Terminator Armor (since, you know, the options come in the box) and I don't really understand whether or not he's legally able to be played as a Thousand Sons Sorcerer in Terminator Armor or not. (I fear not, but I hope to be wrong.)

I didn't mean the buffs wouldn't be spells. Just that they're not from the normal pool, and probably only target their squad. But then you'd have to make an exemption to the one spell per turn rule.

#33
Black_Star

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I think that there are two main reasons we don't see more Thousand Sons armies at events.

 

1) This edition punishes players for taking lists from one codex. There is absolutely no benefit to it, and when you have an army like Thousand Sons with a clear strengths and weaknesses why wouldn't you just cherry pick the good stuff. 

 

2) Marines in general stink, and probably the worst marine units are tactical marines and terminators.... which are the only two options that Thousand Sons have. I do think that Rubrics are better but they're expensive point wise.

 

In my opinion the 1st reason contributes more to their apparent lack of popularity. It just feels like most codex are reduced to two or three units in this edition, because you can choose to just take the HQs, or the troops, or whichever other slot you value. Taking these auxiliary detachments should come with drawbacks instead the CP system rewards you for it. Hopefully they plan on introducing some benefits to playing from a single codex, or we start to see single codex tournaments because I do miss that game dynamic. 


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#34
Skerr

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Are there any other marine factions that are cherry picked as much as we are and deemed not really popular? Aside from new codex do yall see any single factions.out there?

I know i said i keep up with tournaments though not in the last few months.

I think your 2nd point is a strong one as well since those are our bread and butter lore wise.

#35
The Blood Raven

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My group plays mono dex for the most part.

I believe the mono dex players aren’t as concerned about competitive play but that’s an anecdotal assumption by me.

I’ve played a long time and have large army collections. Yet I’m not really into running lists with different factions unless it’s a large apocalypse type free for all.

I’m just getting bored and Knights aside, I want more variety. I felt the same way in 3rd and 4th with Dark Eldar, 4th with Tau, and 5th with codex marines.

Some more unit options or synergy with what we have might inject some excitement for me.

#36
Skerr

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I think your assumption is relevant to others in a similair situation.

I have a small group of about 5 non competitive friends all who have played a long time with a few large armies, like yourself, or 1 really really big one and we all pretty much run single faction as well.

Edited by Skerr, 12 September 2018 - 12:34 AM.


#37
Tokugawa

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My group plays mono dex for the most part.

I believe the mono dex players aren’t as concerned about competitive play but that’s an anecdotal assumption by me.

I’ve played a long time and have large army collections. Yet I’m not really into running lists with different factions unless it’s a large apocalypse type free for all.

I’m just getting bored and Knights aside, I want more variety. I felt the same way in 3rd and 4th with Dark Eldar, 4th with Tau, and 5th with codex marines.

Some more unit options or synergy with what we have might inject some excitement for me.

Casual players would lose more games, no matter the format.

"They play soup so I lose! if only monodex played I will have chance to win."such self-comfort thought is common.

But the truth hurts:if there really come a monodex tournament, mono Raven and mono Taranis would beat them harder.

#38
Black_Star

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Are there any other marine factions that are cherry picked as much as we are and deemed not really popular? Aside from new codex do yall see any single factions.out there?

I know i said i keep up with tournaments though not in the last few months.

I think your 2nd point is a strong one as well since those are our bread and butter lore wise.

 

Well currently I'd say blood angels mainly because a lot of players are running their captains as count as BA with guard/IK. That said I think most of the loyalist marines have a bigger following in part because they had codex in editions like fifth.  



#39
The Blood Raven

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@Tokugawa: my point is casual players are less likely to play in tournaments. I wasn’t making any claims about wins in tourneys. I do believe soup for imperial and chaos could be a design decision too, just like preferring large, cheap units over expensive elite units appears to be.

@Skerr: I’m glad I’m not too different. Let’s get a game in someday. :)
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#40
Sonoftherubric21

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Overall I think we have a solid codex, both in casual and semi-competitive. I rarely play a game where I am just straight steam-rolled by my opponent, even fighting against "competitive" lists. 

 

"Top level tourney play" has always been abusive in regards to what is taken, I think were in a solid overall spot. 

 

That being said; If you play in a meta which is hyper competitive at all times (A Meta that I personally would not be involved in!) then you will be frustrated taking the same units over and over again. So I can see where some are coming from in that regard if that's the only local meta you have access to. 

 

I regularly take Rubrics or Scarab Occult (either or mind..) and rarely ever take daemon princes, almost always 2-3 exalted or Ahriman + Exalted. I think offhandedly I win about 50% of my games, give or take. Never really had to many issues, we have incredible versatility due to our spell list, great damage output with little care for armor (-2 AP on most guns + easy smite access) but as said above we suffer due to generally being more "elite." which can be offset with liberal application of Goats and Cultists. 
 


Edited by Sonoftherubric21, 12 September 2018 - 01:12 PM.

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#41
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Overall I think we have a solid codex, both in casual and semi-competitive. I rarely play a game where I am just straight steam-rolled by my opponent, even fighting against "competitive" lists. 

 

"Top level tourney play" has always been abusive in regards to what is taken, I think were in a solid overall spot. 

 

That being said; If you play in a meta which is hyper competitive at all times (A Meta that I personally would not be involved in!) then you will be frustrated taking the same units over and over again. So I can see where some are coming from in that regard if that's the only local meta you have access to. 

 

I regularly take Rubrics or Scarab Occult (either or mind..) and rarely ever take daemon princes, almost always 2-3 exalted or Ahriman + Exalted. I think offhandedly I win about 50% of my games, give or take. Never really had to many issues, we have incredible versatility due to our spell list, great damage output with little care for armor (-2 AP on most guns + easy smite access) but as said above we suffer due to generally being more "elite." which can be offset with liberal application of Goats and Cultists. 
 

Having played the "Ru-Brick" into the teeth of competitive Alaitoc and come out OK, I agree. There are also occasional anecdotes that pop up here on B & C of people winning local ITC events with dust bunnies. It can happen. It just takes more work than DP Spam + Ahriman + Goats.


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#42
Grendaxe

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Overall I think we have a solid codex, both in casual and semi-competitive. I rarely play a game where I am just straight steam-rolled by my opponent, even fighting against "competitive" lists. 

 

"Top level tourney play" has always been abusive in regards to what is taken, I think were in a solid overall spot. 

 

That being said; If you play in a meta which is hyper competitive at all times (A Meta that I personally would not be involved in!) then you will be frustrated taking the same units over and over again. So I can see where some are coming from in that regard if that's the only local meta you have access to. 

 

I regularly take Rubrics or Scarab Occult (either or mind..) and rarely ever take daemon princes, almost always 2-3 exalted or Ahriman + Exalted. I think offhandedly I win about 50% of my games, give or take. Never really had to many issues, we have incredible versatility due to our spell list, great damage output with little care for armor (-2 AP on most guns + easy smite access) but as said above we suffer due to generally being more "elite." which can be offset with liberal application of Goats and Cultists. 
 

 

I don't disagree that the TS codex does not hold it's own in casual and competitive gaming environments. My point is, and i think i see some others with a somewhat similar opinion, is that the codex for is dull. Yes you can field 3 rubric units and 2 scarab units + 3 exalted sorcerers and i'm sure you'll do reasonably fine in a game. But i ask you is that the only requirement for a solid codex? If we win >50% of the time is it then, that we have a great codex? Because i'm sorry but for me that does not make a solid codex.

Like i said earlier i feel i have 2 options of engaging the opponent with our bolters or with smite (or something that looks like smite). I became bored with this somewhere after my 3rd game this edition. I had hoped the codex to bring in some variation in this respect but honestly it hasn't.

 

Personally I would have liked non mortal wound powers. Some people don't, because of the 7th edition, which i can understand but i think in moderation it can be fun.

Others would have liked CC rubrics or havoc rubrics. Which in my honest opinion might make TS a bit too similar to other legions but all ideas i can get behind at the end of the day. As long as i don't have to fire AP-2 bolters and smite every censored.gif  game, every censored.gif  round with every censored.gif  TS unit.



#43
Skerr

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I cant argue with you there.

I get that our legion is now represented by the decline of our past glory. Sorcerers with Rubric retinues, hoards of goats, demons and demonic armor or beasts which i actually love. But i do agree i would like to see some more synergies or something a bit more than ap -2 and smite spam.
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#44
Ahzek451

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Have to agree with the above. It's so much about the success of the army. Where we sit now is pretty solid. We are a nice mid, upper level-ish codex when it comes to power which is a nice spot to be in to avoid the nerf batt but also not completely unusable. It just comes down to flavor and fun. And the following isn't even a hard complaint about the book, more like a "it would be nice if...". 

 

The codex def feels like it was scrambled together moreso than some. A nice point of reference is looking at death guard. And army that was created under a new edition, has lots of new models and you can tell there was a tad more organization and time put into it. For the sons part of that has do with having an army that was born at the end of 7th with only a handful of models. So GW slaps 3 tables of powers together and goes "look what you guys get!". But....2 of them already exists and one was designed more for daemons with some lackluster powers. And the 3rd new table also felt rushed. I have been playing thousand sons since the start and with every edition I yearn for some actual powers that deal with manipulation, deceit, and trickery. And every edition I felt that other armies get a spell or ability that would fit perfect for the sons. 

 

Simply put, when it comes to powers, thanks for 3 tables GW but there were quite a few missed opportunities and it feels like the codex was cheated on the amount of effort that went into this book. Not by a lot....but at least a bit. Slapped together powers and units thrown in from other games to build an army. 

 

And maybe it was hard for GW to put as much effort into a full psychic army (besides grey knights), under time constraints. Which could be why overall, this army is kind of mediocre. And who knows, I feel like a lot of people are turned off by psychic power mechanics. And with an army that uses a bunch of them with no clear dominating power(s), I can see why. Which I don't mind, an army that is complex to use but extremely rewarding when you pull things off is great! Tomb kings people!


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#45
yergerjo

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As an aside, I rarely find myself using Smite...maybe once a turn because I actually use my AspSorcs for powers...and I rarely run out of powers to use, except with Ahriman just because of range...
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#46
Sonoftherubric21

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I have to disagree with the line of reasoning; while we do have some definite missed opportunities, I don't feel that GW really shortchanged us. 

The flying goats + Shaman should have been part of the initial 40k release for thousand sons, it should always have been in both games, so I don't even consider this when discussing GW giving us those models.  I mean im not sure what else people want other then a melee rubric unit (or havoc equivalent) and a psyker dread. The only thing that made me tilt my head was the Mutalith, which to be fair turned out pretty well, basically a Daemon Engine in all but keyword. (yes; I get it regarding that model being shoe-horned in) 

Thats basically all were missing, im not sure what else people want....we've got a full codex that is almost entirely fleshed out barring 1-2 options, More tanks, daemon engines, and troop options then most other codexs this edition.... are we sure this isn't just a case of "the grass is always greener!" going on here?  We have an excellent HQ section with a plethora of great options, we have 3 solid troop slots, ALL the CSM tank, walker, and daemon engine options, as well as a decent Elite and Fast slot sections.... 

 

As for powers, the whole "Smite with every unit thing" is of course an option...but I rarely find myself ever doing that, I usually slap a 6/7 cost spell on the aspiring and then go from there and many times that single damage smite means almost nothing, of course this is entirely dependent on game and situation.... I will however agree that the lores could have been...perhaps more about "trickery" as said above, but we have some of these things with Warp Time, -1 to hit, and +1 invul save. These things are somewhat abstract concepts and hard to design without breaking a game that is already precariously balanced. (though I understand the flaw in my own logic on this) 

I played 1k sons in 7th edition: psychic powers with "Hit and Wound" mechanics SUCK. Out of a list of almost 50 spells last edition that thousand sons had access to....(of course these were RANDOM ROLLS for spells....) there were possibly 2-3 damage spells of actual use and note. I suffered with that long enough thank you, lol. 

 

TL;DR  I just don't see it the way some in the community do. I think at the moment overall were good and have a decent selection. And in reality that's all we need... for the moment...


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#47
Tyriks

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As an aside, I rarely find myself using Smite...maybe once a turn because I actually use my AspSorcs for powers...and I rarely run out of powers to use, except with Ahriman just because of range...


I find myself smiting often, though I also use Aspiring Sorcerers for 'real' spells. Their output is pretty much always better than baby smites. If baby smites were Warp Charge 3 or 4 I might be tempted to use it just for reliability, but now even if I only want damage I'll use a real spell and save Smites for better casters who will get the full d3.

#48
Kite Senet

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Thats basically all were missing, im not sure what else people want....we've got a full codex that is almost entirely fleshed out barring 1-2 options, More tanks, daemon engines, and troop options then most other codexs this edition.... are we sure this isn't just a case of "the grass is always greener!" going on here?  We have an excellent HQ section with a plethora of great options, we have 3 solid troop slots, ALL the CSM tank, walker, and daemon engine options, as well as a decent Elite and Fast slot sections.... 

I agree with most of what you said, but I do think the Thousand Sons could have used more options. The entire specifically T-Sons aesthetic rests on five units: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted, SOTs, and Rubricae. More options within that aesthetic would be desirable--in particular, more varieties of Rubric would be desirable, especially sword-wielding Rubricae as depicted in the book The War of the Fang.

Basically, the problem crops up most consistently if one wishes to maintain a unified Thousand Sons aesthetic with their army. The codex doesn't give much room to build a mechanically diverse, interesting army without dipping into the more generically Tzeentchian units of Tzaangors and MVB's or the more generically Chaos units of tanks or Daemon Engines or Cultists.

It's not so much that the codex isn't itself diverse, but the distinctively Thousand Sons part of the Thousand Sons codex spans only a very small subset of the game's features--essentially just Elites, Elite-esque Troops, HQ Sorcerors, and one Lord of War, with nothing distinctively T-Sons to fill out the remaining battlefield roles.


Edited by Kite Senet, 12 September 2018 - 11:18 PM.

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#49
Sonoftherubric21

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Thats basically all were missing, im not sure what else people want....we've got a full codex that is almost entirely fleshed out barring 1-2 options, More tanks, daemon engines, and troop options then most other codexs this edition.... are we sure this isn't just a case of "the grass is always greener!" going on here?  We have an excellent HQ section with a plethora of great options, we have 3 solid troop slots, ALL the CSM tank, walker, and daemon engine options, as well as a decent Elite and Fast slot sections.... 

I agree with most of what you said, but I do think the Thousand Sons could have used more options. The entire specifically T-Sons aesthetic rests on five units: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted, SOTs, and Rubricae. More options within that aesthetic would be desirable--in particular, more varieties of Rubric would be desirable, especially sword-wielding Rubricae as depicted in the book The War of the Fang.

Basically, the problem crops up most consistently if one wishes to maintain a unified Thousand Sons aesthetic with their army. The codex doesn't give much room to build a mechanically diverse, interesting army without dipping into the more generically Tzeentchian units of Tzaangors and MVB's or the more generically Chaos units of tanks or Daemon Engines or Cultists.

It's not so much that the codex isn't itself diverse, but the distinctively Thousand Sons part of the Thousand Sons codex spans only a very small subset of the game's features--essentially just Elites, Elite-esque Troops, HQ Sorcerors, and one Lord of War, with nothing distinctively T-Sons to fill out the remaining battlefield roles.

 

 

That's entirely fair. Id love to see a Psyker dread, or even a psyker robot like the HH line has updated for 8th and playable. 

but who knows given FW's erratic behavior, and GW's working on other stuff currently so thatll be a bit lol. 



#50
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Do rubrics ever use jump packs in the fluff? Because a squad of them with something like tzaangor blades would be AWESOME. And I'd love to see some TS style jump packs!




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