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Thousand Sons popularity and usage at different events

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#76
Ahzek451

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I haven't read any TSons novels (only the Gathering Storm stuff with Ahriman tbh) but why do people think Rubrics aren't as good in melee as other Marines (as in giving them easier to handle weapons like maces)? Afaik they still have the same WS as other Marines and while under controle of a Sorcerer can fight just as good as any living Marine.

A lot of it attributes to the fact that for years the Thousand Sons combat doctrine has been to keep the enemy at range and avoid close combat (back in early 3rd, thousand sons were not even allowed to charge into combat, they had to be charged to be engaged). We don't suck at it, as you said we are marines, but were not world eaters or blood angels either. Add in the fact that for years rubrics were considered slow golems at all times and at one point, even would strike at initiative 1. The more recent fluff has changed a tad to say that in the heat of combat they pretty much return to marine status. 


Edited by Ahzek451, 14 September 2018 - 11:41 AM.


#77
Skerr

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Im still in favor of movement shenanigans though if our Rubes are shooting focused jet packs make more sense than jump packs though I overzll agree with Panzer about a disk, maybe one that holds 5 or Magnus sized but might not be practical.

Panzer, good points on cc question, i was under the impression other factions might have better offensive capabilities even though Rubes might have good durability in fight phase.

Having not read the fluff it sounds like there could be precedent for cc focused unit?

#78
Tyriks

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I don't see how a mindless suit of armor would win enough favor for a disc. That would also cause a lot of keyword problems - they would be Daemons and Cavalry, not Infantry. I think either using psychic powers or a rule like Necron Wraiths have (maybe less flavorful but more reliable) would work better for them.

What little I've read that has rubric marines in it does describe them as ponderous and slow, but that might be the exception. I haven't read any books specifically about 40k Thousand Sons, just stuff where they play a supporting role (or books set before the Rubric), so it may be incorrect. I personally prefer the aesthetics of dual wielding some khopeshes, though.

#79
Tyriks

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Ah man, how could I forget the icon of flame! Please change this damn piece of wargear GW. Tzeentch almighty what a rule.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Even just making it roll a d6 for each unit in range would help. Or making casters within 6" have their psychic tests count as being 2 higher than it was if someone tries to deny. I just can't bring myself to spend points on something that might, maybe cause a single wound per game which I can't target very well.

#80
Skerr

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Yes i should have clarified I was speaking more of a large disc platform that could carry a 5 man unit with AS but likley not tabletop practical... keywords also, probably op, but im just humoring the "disc"-cussion (haw haw). I agree 1 automoton should not get a demon mount, lol.

If we were to get increased mobility I would still prefer it to be dubious, deceitful and trixy.

Edited by Skerr, 14 September 2018 - 02:49 PM.

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#81
Tyriks

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I think I started my response before yours was posted, hadn't considered the megadisc. Big disc for a whole squad to share sounds like a nightmare to model, haha. It'd have to have squad size restrictions or something, and essentially be a degrading single model instead of a squad, unless we magnetize all the guys on it to remove when they die.

#82
Skerr

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Yeah, not really practicle for the table top.

Not that he needs it but I love that pic in the dex of Magnus on his massive disc surrounded by his cronies in some weird plane.

#83
Raven1

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Ah man, how could I forget the icon of flame! Please change this damn piece of wargear GW. Tzeentch almighty what a rule.


Easily worst thing in the codex possibly wh40k. Here pay for points for something that wont have an effect in game. Since GW is so fond of porting AoS rules this could easily be word for word. 18" range, MW on closest enemy unit ona 4+ 1d6 for each "Wizard" (friend or foe) with 9" replace Wizard with psyker and you have something worth taking.

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#84
Ahzek451

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Yeah, I debated on which was worse....and I will have to give it to the icon. Since you have to pay points for it. The Athenaean Scrolls artifact has got to be one of the worst pieces of character gear in the game however. 



#85
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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Ah man, how could I forget the icon of flame! Please change this damn piece of wargear GW. Tzeentch almighty what a rule.


Easily worst thing in the codex possibly wh40k. Here pay for points for something that wont have an effect in game. Since GW is so fond of porting AoS rules this could easily be word for word. 18" range, MW on closest enemy unit ona 4+ 1d6 for each "Wizard" (friend or foe) with 9" replace Wizard with psyker and you have something worth taking.

 

Yeah. In AOS, the Icon-based "Tzaangor Bug Zapper" list is actually frightening. It gets stuck in and things just melt around it.



#86
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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I haven't read any TSons novels (only the Gathering Storm stuff with Ahriman tbh) but why do people think Rubrics aren't as good in melee as other Marines (as in giving them easier to handle weapons like maces)? Afaik they still have the same WS as other Marines and while under controle of a Sorcerer can fight just as good as any living Marine.

A lot of it attributes to the fact that for years the Thousand Sons combat doctrine has been to keep the enemy at range and avoid close combat (back in early 3rd, thousand sons were not even allowed to charge into combat, they had to be charged to be engaged). We don't suck at it, as you said we are marines, but were not world eaters or blood angels either. Add in the fact that for years rubrics were considered slow golems at all times and at one point, even would strike at initiative 1. The more recent fluff has changed a tad to say that in the heat of combat they pretty much return to marine status. 

 

We're also missing some of the melee units that existed that haven't been ported over yet. Namely, Indomitus-pattern Rubric Terminators with Power Fists. They existed in 3.0 (where they could even have combi-weapons) and the old CCG, as well as in the color plates in Index Astartes. We also had units of marines (likely Aspiring Sorcerers) on Discs that appeared in the CCG and a few other places.

 

Finally, we had Possessed in 3.0 and 3.5. In 3.0 they got a speed boost. In 3.5, they were all Psykers. They could bring them back using the same rationale as Helbrutes: "students" from outside chapters duped into participating in the wrong ritual. :)

 

Just giving us the variant terminators (Indomitus and the Cataphractii that the Sekhmet are sometimes pictured wearing in older art) and making them appropriately hard would fix melee issues. So would giving us (and all Chaos, frankly) Contemptor access in mainline GW publications. Would be the best place to put our "Librarian Dread" as many have already stated. Possessed would be a bonus.

 

I could hope for the return of Rubric Dreadnoughts from 3.0/Forge World, but I think that fluff may have been redone.


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#87
Ahzek451

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I haven't read any TSons novels (only the Gathering Storm stuff with Ahriman tbh) but why do people think Rubrics aren't as good in melee as other Marines (as in giving them easier to handle weapons like maces)? Afaik they still have the same WS as other Marines and while under controle of a Sorcerer can fight just as good as any living Marine.

A lot of it attributes to the fact that for years the Thousand Sons combat doctrine has been to keep the enemy at range and avoid close combat (back in early 3rd, thousand sons were not even allowed to charge into combat, they had to be charged to be engaged). We don't suck at it, as you said we are marines, but were not world eaters or blood angels either. Add in the fact that for years rubrics were considered slow golems at all times and at one point, even would strike at initiative 1. The more recent fluff has changed a tad to say that in the heat of combat they pretty much return to marine status. 

 

We're also missing some of the melee units that existed that haven't been ported over yet. Namely, Indomitus-pattern Rubric Terminators with Power Fists. They existed in 3.0 (where they could even have combi-weapons) and the old CCG, as well as in the color plates in Index Astartes. We also had units of marines (likely Aspiring Sorcerers) on Discs that appeared in the CCG and a few other places.

 

Finally, we had Possessed in 3.0 and 3.5. In 3.0 they got a speed boost. In 3.5, they were all Psykers. They could bring them back using the same rationale as Helbrutes: "students" from outside chapters duped into participating in the wrong ritual. smile.png

 

Just giving us the variant terminators (Indomitus and the Cataphractii that the Sekhmet are sometimes pictured wearing in older art) and making them appropriately hard would fix melee issues. So would giving us (and all Chaos, frankly) Contemptor access in mainline GW publications. Would be the best place to put our "Librarian Dread" as many have already stated. Possessed would be a bonus.

 

I could hope for the return of Rubric Dreadnoughts from 3.0/Forge World, but I think that fluff may have been redone.

 

I built a few possessed models, but I never used them. possessed were so damn expensive at 1 wound. I think they could get up to 50 points a model. You could roughly do the same thing with chosen, but they too were waaay too expensive.  

 

Yeah I was super upset to read the helbrute fluff retcon rubric dreads. Basically said that the spirit of a rubric marine was too weak to pilot a dread. But...fluff has been retconned before and GW is known for doing some zany stuff. Watch....

 

"introducing the new rubric mega walker!"

 

"But you said rubric souls were too...."

 

"This one is piloted by 3 souls!"

 

"ohhhh totes makes sense now"


Edited by Ahzek451, 14 September 2018 - 07:15 PM.


#88
sfPanzer

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Psyker Dreads for TSons would be awesome. As awesome as it is to have such a unique unit in 40k as Blood Angel I wouldn't mind sharing it with you traitors. :P


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#89
Raven1

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Psyker Dreads for TSons would be awesome. As awesome as it is to have such a unique unit in 40k as Blood Angel I wouldn't mind sharing it with you traitors. :P


I still have hope it will happen. FW just released rules for some 30k. I dont understand why not if FW is doing actively porting 30k to 40k and its something people want why not just do it?

I think an elites choice of just aspiring sorcerers could work.

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#90
Tyriks

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Rubric or psyker dreads would be awesome.

#91
Zodd1888

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How about some conversions between the Rubric and Exalted boxes. Gimme a special unit like that.

#92
Skerr

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GW has been inundated with the dread request and knownthere is overwhelming support for this. They could certainly write lore to retcon or say a lost ritual recently rediscovered and make something cool, hell they could write a datasheet (Chapter Approved beta rules maybe) repack a dreadnaught with a 1k sons sprue of somekind and I would be happy.

#93
GreaterChickenofTzeentch

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GW has been inundated with the dread request and knownthere is overwhelming support for this. They could certainly write lore to retcon or say a lost ritual recently rediscovered and make something cool, hell they could write a datasheet (Chapter Approved beta rules maybe) repack a dreadnaught with a 1k sons sprue of somekind and I would be happy.

Or just release a general Thousand Sons upgrade kit that we can apply to anything.....including the plastic Contemptor. Give us some quick rules with just the Kheres/Multi-Melta/Combi-Bolter and the option for a force sword....that would be in the upgrade kit and conveniently sized for both Contemptors and Daemon Princes.

 

Elite unit of only Aspirings would be pretty cool and address MANY issues. Low hanging fruit given that you get enough stuff in every Rubric box to build multiple Aspirings.


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#94
Raven1

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GW has been inundated with the dread request and knownthere is overwhelming support for this. They could certainly write lore to retcon or say a lost ritual recently rediscovered and make something cool, hell they could write a datasheet (Chapter Approved beta rules maybe) repack a dreadnaught with a 1k sons sprue of somekind and I would be happy.


I dont care if its just stays a FW sorcerer contemptor thing i just wants it.

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#95
Heliomanes

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You can get a lot of ideas just looking at the Thousand Sons during the Heresy and ask what happened to the different units over the millennia. Like the various terminator versions, Osiron psyker dreadnoughts, Khenetai occult bladesmen, Amon's Ammatara occult scouts and seekers, the cybernetica constructs bonded to the Cult of Ruin and so on. They shouldn't be unchanged by any means, far from it, but it seems weird if they just all died or put on power armor and picked up a bolter when they got changed by the Rubric of Ahriman. If anything, the fluff seems to hint that the rubricae enact the duties and tasks they had in life - like ghosts or automatons, so there should be some variety there. And at the very least a sorcerer lord that was once a pyrae adept, a master of machines and initiate in the order of ruin - should be quite different from a master of occult bladesmanship or an adept walking the hidden pathways of the Amitara occult. It would be grand if we had rules that would reflect that. And just imagine how awesome the models could look, to represent what groups of Khenetai Occult could become with ten thousand years of unfettered access to the warp, past strictures and prudence cast to the wind.


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