The units left behind aka The Benchwarmers

[Are Verlo]

Out of curiosity I´m putting out a list of guard units that I´ve yet to see on the field or I rarely see. Since I´m a "the glass is half-full"-guy, I will keep it as constructive and positive as I can.

 

Leman Russ Vanquisher

The cannon looks great, but I could really need some boost. As of now it works like a slightly worse lascannon vs many targets. I guess vs T7, 3+ save (or worse) it will, like the lascannon, wound on 3+ and it has the same save mod as the lascannon. Make it one-shot-that-hurts.

 

 

Veterans

As much as I love the vets, they rarely get to ride along. I´m not sure what would help them and still keep it simple and streamlined. Am I out of my mind when I suggest 5pts per model. Infantry at 4 pts/model generate lots of CP and they field cheap plasma and can be the target of consolidate squads. The vets pay premium for their bs 3+ plasma/melta and cant generate CP like the troops do.

 

"Basic" Ogryns

The bullgryns are awesome and their counterpart, the "regular" Ogryns see little action. How about 25 pts per model? Or increase their CC-capacity by a slight touch? What would work to make them more worthwhile and give them more time in the spotlight?

 

Master of Ordnance

Great name for a datasheet/Unit, but it stops there. Point decrease or rework his "aura". How about giving +1 to hit to a single basilisk/wyven when targeting units over 36" away. Or just get rid of the "blindzone"? Rerolling 1s to hit and wound?

 

So gentlemen. Got any ideas how to get the bechwarmers back on the field?

[domsto]

There are so many more units who i would but in this List. But to answer your question:

 

Vanquisher should be D3 shot S9/-4/D6 like the Neutron Laser from the AdMechs

 

Veterans could need a point degrease. 5ppm would be great i think now the BS3+ isn't worth the 2p more per model.

 

Master of Ordnance would be great if he lets you reroll all failed hits for the units in his Aura even if he would go up in points i ques he would be useful.

[WarriorFish]

I would love Vets to get some character back, something like the old doctrines would go a long way to making them stand out from line infantry. Ogryns suffer from being too bland, their gun is ok but Guard hardly needs more basic shooting. Maybe something like a buff to the weapon, including a bayonet or something to let them hit a little harder in combat? Then they'd have a bit more of a place I reckon.

 

I'm not sure what the Vanquisher needs, other than not being all-or-nothing single shot. It would be nice if Eradicators had something that made them unique, I liked the idea someone had of making them ignore all to hit penalties. Not major, but would make it different and have a niche :)

[duz_]

I would love Vets to get some character back, something like the old doctrines would go a long way to making them stand out from line infantry. Ogryns suffer from being too bland, their gun is ok but Guard hardly needs more basic shooting. Maybe something like a buff to the weapon, including a bayonet or something to let them hit a little harder in combat? Then they'd have a bit more of a place I reckon.

 

I'm not sure what the Vanquisher needs, other than not being all-or-nothing single shot. It would be nice if Eradicators had something that made them unique, I liked the idea someone had of making them ignore all to hit penalties. Not major, but would make it different and have a niche

 

 

I think Ogryns have a place, unfortunately its more defensive in nature vs Bullgryns

I do want to get mine on the table, they're definitely at a TT standard, but I wanna finish them off properly and varnish them first (damn metal models ;) )

 

Vanq' definitely needs some mortal wound shells ;)

I was thinking the same as you about the Eradicator, ignores cover is nice... but negative modifiers to hit are far more common and troublesome, I'd rather ignore that too

Especially since its only D6 shots

[USNCenturion]

I like using vets in a chimera. They’re typically my melta delivery system since scions can’t utilize them effectively if they DS. I wouldn’t be opposed to a return to the old specialist rules for them but they do get the job done for me. They are far more durable than command squads and have better BS and wounds than the SWSs, which I use as snipers or flamers.

 

Ogryns are a fun choice for me. Obviously 3 maulgryns have better defense and assault, but I like the gungryns for plugging holes in my line and you should never discount the effectiveness of the ripper gun and some grenades.

 

The Vanquisher needs to be improved, absolutely.

 

When I play my Cadians the MoO is useless. For my Steel Legion he’s alright but not really competitive or game changing.

 

Armored sentinels could use something more somewhere, as the scout move and go recon strat are just too valuable for the scout sentinel to ever consider the armored version.

[Halfpint100]

vets were all about customization in previous editions. Bringing back  doctrines would be a good start to make them useful again IMO

[Wassa]

Master of Ordnance is severely gimped by the "has no effect within 36 inches" rule.

As an alternative, Catachans tend to use Sergeant Harker for their artillery, rather than have him up in the field.

Removing this limitation would make me field them.

 

The Vanquisher was amazing back in 3rd edition I believe.

It was a standard LRBT but also had the option to fire an Anti Tank shell instead.

 

If you want a Vanquisher now, you have to use the Ryza or Stygies variant. 

These have two changes:

1) It has a coaxial bolter, which then allows you to reroll all failed hits with the main gun.

2) If it doesn't move you can +1 to the hit roll, essentially hitting on 3+.

[RaEndymion]

 

The Vanquisher was amazing back in 3rd edition I believe.

It was a standard LRBT but also had the option to fire an Anti Tank shell instead.

 

Back then you could at least kill a tank in a single shot. Yeah, its problem now is that with only 1 shot (2 because leman russ) you are lucky to even strip half the wounds from tanks/monsters. Regular battle cannons do more on average now. It needs to be like a neutron laser now to have any kind of viability.

[Phubar]

There is a discussion on how meking the all LR variants viable again, i suggest to take a look at the ideas written there :)

[noigrim]

My comissar is doing colonel job nowadays

[Imperator Deus]

Personally, I think the way to fix vanquishers is to have them cause mortal wounds. Even with a points increase, it would finally have a role on the battlefield, that isn't being a crappier version of the basic Russ.

[Slasher956]

Or take a page from the Imp. Knights.... give the Vanq main gun a rule that benefits targeting a unit with the Monster or Vehicle keyword so something like "If the target unit has the Vhicle or Monster keyword then roll 3D6 and discard the lowest instead of 1D6"

[Exilyth]

Vets would be more usefull if they were a troops unit again.

[-Nemesis-]

I think standard bearers should have the character keyword, so you can take command squads and not have them die immediately. They are a very characterful (and cool-looking) part of the guard, and it's a shame that they are only used as suicidal special weapon caddies, or not at all. 

 

Masters of Ordnance should probably drop the range minimum for their buff, or at least reduce it to 12" or something. 36" is pretty much within all the relevant engagement ranges.

 

Regular Ogryn do suck.

 

Sniper rifles maybe need to have some kind of battle shock component (maybe +1 to tests?).

 

Anyway, a lot of great ideas being discussed. I hope everyone submits their thoughts to 40kfaq@gwplc.com

 

They are clearly reading it, and if they keep getting emails about the same thing over and over again, we have a major FAQ and Chapter Approved where it can see changes.

[ProminusIV]

I really enjoy veterans from a modeling/kitbashing perspective, but they are average on the battlefield. I usually drop a squad and a commander with ambush behind enemy lines. But they are never really successful tbh. Still. guards need their veterans to look up to!

[duz_]

I had been doing similar with my vets

However now I find a full plasma command squad with platoon commander is better bang for the buck and its smaller foot print makes it easier to outflank :ermm:

 

Giving vets doctrines or something more than just BS3+ (which they then pay extra for weapons) would give them more utility

[Mr4Minutes]

Vets getting doctrines again would be great. Either a points decrease or allowing them to take the cheaper plasma/melta instead of the expensive scion options would also help. They get a double bs 3+ tax, which doesn’t help.

 

Chimeras are also less appealing in 8th, so mech vets aren’t a great option anymore.

 

Ratlings are another unit that could use some love. I bought a box and then they received a point increase in chapter approved that was a real head scratcher.

[noigrim]

My command squad is yet to see a game, enginseer could use some love too

[domsto]

Sadly there are many Units in the Codex that are not worth leaving the Bench to see the Table.

Wyrdvane Psykers for example, still one of the worst Units in the Book.

[Shamansky]

Chimera was lost for my troops when they added -1 BS for moving and removed top hatch fire point. The last nail into the Chimera's coffin was the new order of disembarking. With the price of 2-3 HWS or infantry squads it really does too little for the points. 2 HF variant is even more pricy and wants Catachan doctrine. Armageddon stratagem does not help too much as long as orders can give the same for free. Spending CP for Command vehicle strtagem every turn to keep one commander inside has doubtful amount of sense. They are not the transports to pay THAT amount of points, they are not that much of a gun platform, their slot is not needed to build any special detachment. Honestly I used to think that i'd done something wrong if i did not take at least one Chimera to the list during previous edition, I do not really know what to do with my APCs now. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Vets need their doctrines back. Would I take them now? No. But would I take them if they had a stealth doctrine for +2 saves in cover included in their current price? I would definitely consider it.

 

As for the Vanquisher, they need to take a page from the old IA books. Give it different shell options, like the old beastslayer shells (man, I miss that FW tank commander...:() or an option for a co-axial stubber to re-roll hits.

 

The LR eradicator should be able to shoot without Line of Sight. There's niche for you.

Exterminator need 6-8 shots or make it like the Helveris or Predator ACs.

No idea what to do with the Demolished. Its3a confused tank.

 

Vendettas and Valks need Strafing Run to balance out their movement penalty when flying.

 

ROUGH RIDERS NEED TO BE BACK IN THE BOOK!!!

 

Chimera transports need a point drop or allow models to fire while embarked. Make Mech great again!

 

 

Yarrick needs a small drop to bring him in line with the SE nerf and Lord Commissar point drop.

 

Ogryns are too soft compared to Bullgryns. I'd say, combine the entries, make Bullgryn plate an option, like with the Bodyguard. Same for the weapon choices. Now you can make some cool mixed units and the shooty bois are covered by armoured and shielded bois.

 

Hydra needs a point droo, considering how niche it is. Give it also a rule to ignore negative modifiers against Fly units instead of the usual +1. It will be an answer against Eldar.

 

Wyvern and Mortars need to be brought in line. Probably make mortars pay premium for no-LOS shooting. Make them cost 6pts and the HWS 7pts per model. Drop the AC and LC for BS4 as well. This will make the Taurox more attractive.

 

Manticore should do 3 damage.

 

Finally, the MoO needs an overhaul. The MW afe pointless and shooting outside of 36" barely happens. Besides, people have access to Cadia Doctrines and Harker for Catachan, which fill his rule and much more than that.

 

Did I miss something?