How the Emperors finest take down errant Imperial Knights

[FallenSoldiers]

The Shadowsword will be BS3+ vs a knight at least. However that Knight will shrug off most of its shots.

 

Avg of 6 shots, 4 hits, say they all wound you’ll MAYBE get 2 shots through the rotated ion shields for 12ish damage. That knight will then murder you next turn.

[Tirak]

The Shadowsword will be BS3+ vs a knight at least. However that Knight will shrug off most of its shots.

 

Avg of 6 shots, 4 hits, say they all wound you’ll MAYBE get 2 shots through the rotated ion shields for 12ish damage. That knight will then murder you next turn.

 

Rotate Ion Shields does make a knight fairly tough, but not enough to murder you. There's a few things working against him. First and foremost he has to get to you, and that's not easy to march across the board to make it. If he has Turn 1, then he might make the charge by Turn 2, but I doubt it for a few pretty simple reasons. Every turn, if you come packing Vostroyans, you're going to average 6 shots per turn, hit 5 of those 6 shots, and then you need to roll 2s to wound, but rerolling 1s because of the Volcano Cannon's special ability which lets it reroll failed wounds against Titanic. That works out to wounding 4.861. Now the Rotate Ion Shields forces that to hit an Invuln of 4+, so 2.43056 gets through that. Times 7 because damage is 2d6, and the average on a D6 is 3.5, and that deals 17.01389 damage on average from the Volcano Cannon alone. That means that of 24 wounds he had, he now has 7. Bottom Bracket on a Knight is 6, so if you slip 1 more wound by that knight, he's toast. But it gets better, let's assume melee is joined, well in that case with Crush Them, a Shadowsword dishes out 6.67 wounds per turn, and he doesn't get to Invuln save that because Ion Shields only affect ranged weapons. So in total, you've just dished out 23.68 wounds, of 24 wounds. The Shadowsword can crush a Knight all on its own.

 

But that scenario is incredibly unlikely to happen, because you're going to have a screen. The Shadowsword is going to be back in a corner and bubble wrapped, so Mr. Knight is going to have to stomp his way through the whole army to actually get to you, easily giving you the 2 turns you need on average to completely take his lunch.

 

Now of course everyone and their cousin is going to be focusing on your Shadowsword, but the joke is that the Shadowsword is cheaper than most of the Knights, so while they blitz through two turns of all their anti tank shooting to murder your Shadowsword, you're using the rest of your armor to take out his centerpiece and carve up whatever you can.

[FallenSoldiers]

Tirak:

 

A few notes:

 

1) I was discussing specially vs the Castellan since it’s “the” knight right now, so it doesn’t care about getting to you, it has 48” range on most of its guns and 28 wounds.

 

2) Rotate Ion shields will likely take it to a 3++ because if it’s “the list” that knight will have a 4++ from Ion Bulwark and then rotating to a 3++.

 

3) that 1 CP stratagem to function at your top tier means if you don’t take it out, it’s coming back at you at full strength!

 

4) thanks for crunching “actual” numbers, I’m always far too lazy and do what I can in my head. Would you mind running them numbers using the provided scenario?

 

 

Duz_

Knights are a hot army to play against now with tons of tricks, great stratagems, and buckets of ways to play them. I don’t get discouraged, I just try new tactics! I’m hoping to keep this on topic with discussion of beating knights with some of our units! If you’d prefer a new topic for that, I’d be happy to oblige!

[duz_]

Topic split from Wassa's thread to specifically address AM vs IK's

[FallenSoldiers]

Thanks, Duz!

[Tirak]

Tirak:

 

A few notes:

 

1) I was discussing specially vs the Castellan since it’s “the” knight right now, so it doesn’t care about getting to you, it has 48” range on most of its guns and 28 wounds.

 

2) Rotate Ion shields will likely take it to a 3++ because if it’s “the list” that knight will have a 4++ from Ion Bulwark and then rotating to a 3++.

 

3) that 1 CP stratagem to function at your top tier means if you don’t take it out, it’s coming back at you at full strength!

 

4) thanks for crunching “actual” numbers, I’m always far too lazy and do what I can in my head. Would you mind running them numbers using the provided scenario?

 

 

Duz_

Knights are a hot army to play against now with tons of tricks, great stratagems, and buckets of ways to play them. I don’t get discouraged, I just try new tactics! I’m hoping to keep this on topic with discussion of beating knights with some of our units! If you’d prefer a new topic for that, I’d be happy to oblige!

 

Sure thing. So the average Castellan Knight is weighing in at 604 points. The 604 one is going to shove 1 Plasma Decimator, 2 Shield Breaker Missile, Two Twin Melta Guns, 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon and a Volcano lance, meant to be the discount version of the Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword.

 

With that he's bringing a BS3+, degrading at 14 and 7. Assuming maximum power she'll average a burst of:

 

Plasma Decimator (Normal Mode): 1.296

Plasma Decimator (Overcharged): 3.89

2x Shield Breaker Missile: 3.12

2x Twin Meltagun (Ran): 3.5

2x Twin Meltagun (Walked): 4.67

2x Twin Meltagun (Melta Range): 5.959 (Avg Damage on 2d6 take the highest is 4.47)

2x Siegebreaker Cannon: 3.56

Volcano Lance: 12.43 (Yes I included the rerollling failed wounds)

 

So from this we see the total average damage on a given round can be a number of things:

First Turn Scenario (No Meltaguns)(Normal Plasma): 20.406

First Turn Scenario (No Meltaguns)(Overcharged Plasma): 23

Full Alpha (12-7in)(Normal Plasma): 25.076

Full Alpha (12-7in)(Overcharged Plasma): 27.67

Full Melta Alpha (Normal Plasma): 26.365

INTENSIFY THE FORWARD FIREPOWER!: 28.959

 

 I get what you're saying about the Castellan Knight Fallen, as the amount of firepower she's bringing to the table is pretty astonishing for a 604 point unit. She will drop the Shadowsword down to a single wound with just one round of normal shooting from maximum range, meaning the Tallarn Option quite frankly is the only option if you're going to fight this thing. I'll fully admit my emphasis on the Vostroyan Accuracy was made without fully realizing this kind of crunch potential. If you get a first turn shot on it you'll be fine, but considering that you'll only have a 50% change of that happening ((2/3+(1/6)) Normal roll with them have 1+ advantage and the Seize the Initiative Roll) that's a bad idea to balance a strategy on.

 

So with that in mind, it's clear we have to run our calculations using a Tallarn Shadowsword, otherwise it's just too risky. Luckily the Shadowsword is much simpler to calculate because it only has 2 weapons, and their range is effectivly board wide and I don't have to worry about over charging and the like. We'll be shooting at the Castellan Knight and assuming he's running it in a fashion as to give himself a round of 3++, however I'd like to note that using it is a 3CP cost, at least according to the version I read where it specifies Dominus Class units cost 3cp to charge up. It doesn't affect the crunch much, but I figured I'd mention it.

 

Twin Heavy Bolter: .44

Volcano Cannon:  9.07

 

So the Shadowsword will deal 9.51 damage to the Castellan, which is significantly less good than before with many thanks given to that 3++. Sadly, that's not enough to drop him a bracket, meaning your second shot will be made at your bottom bracket if it's made at all. The follow up becomes a measly 7.14. Assuming both turns fire into that 3++ you're looking at 16.65 damage output, which will drag him to mid bracket, but now you're looking at that one shot potential, if he even bothers with it. On the bright side, it will take him about two turns of shooting to kill you if you start throwing in -1s to hit, and even the +1 armor from Psychic shield helps by taking the teeth out of the Plasma.

 

So yes, it would seem that if they're running a Castellan, then my earlier calculations, which were running off the assumption of a more point comparable knight, were not applicable to this monster, and woe betide the tanker who stands in the way of it. Running a quick back of the note calculation, assuming 4 Catachan Russes against this thing, they'll come out at about 3 wounds dealt to it combined. A 3++ is a hell of a kicker.

[librisrouge]

Since I play both knights and IG, I like to imagine I have some insight on this topic. Insight that has caused me to adore the Shadowsword.

 

First, the shadowsword is cheaper than a knight, especially a castellan. While it will very rarely take that castellan out in one shot, the castellan will often struggle to return the favor, unless it has a relic or somesuch to help it out. That means CPs are being spent and knights often struggle to maintain those.

 

Next is target prioritization. Often, half the fun and strategy of facing knights is forcing your opponent to decide when they want to use Rotate Ion Shields. Do they blow it now, while you're targetting their warden with a leman russ demolisher or a DS'ing scion squad with 4 order enhanced plasmas? Do they wait for you to go after their castellan because they just KNOW you're going to? Heck, target that warden again to finish it off!

 

The hard part for IG is the lone knight supporting an enemy. They'll always rotate, and its the clear target. If you have a shadowsword and they don't have any other big targets, you'd still be a fool to drop that sexy volcano cannon shot anywhere else. You just need to hope it adds up.

 

Lastly, we get our own strategems and regimental traits. BS3+ is great and all but Cadians should also be getting re-roll 1s to hit. Catachan should be getting re-roll 1s (you did take Harker, right?!?) and more shots. Valhallans can endure the attrition match better. Tallarn will almost always get first shot. Armaggedon and Mordian don't have much and Tempestus would be AMAZING...if we could use it (Shadowswords can commando, right?!?) but I suppose they have their place, such as when a knight charges your shadowsword 

[duz_]

Also you can get nearly 2 Shadowswords for the price of 1 Castellan  

[Tirak]

I started doing a quick crunch of wound efficiency, and at the max damage mark the Castellan is nearly twice as efficient in terms of damage per point spent, even though it's 200 points more.

[FallenSoldiers]

Tirak: thanks for the number crunching!! I’ve used the Tallarn SS a few times as a way to survive round 1.

 

The idea of baiting them into using Rotate Ion shields early is so good (I had an opponent do it when I first targeted his Armiger... leaving his Castellan open to eat some shots!) sadly a lot of 1 knight lists exist! I’ve also had some luck with 3 Russes (Pask, TC, and reg Russ) with crippling a knight. Thankfully I also got the -2 to hit off on Pask and -1 on everyone else so 2/3 survived the turn!

 

Theyre a challenging opponent for sure, but what good General doesn’t love a challenge!!

[H311fi5h]

When doing your math, don't forget the knight will run Order of Companions (rerolling EVERY 1, including number of shots and damage rolls), will always operate in the top bracket, and will use Cawl's Wrath instead of the regular Plasma Decimator. 

I've run both the Shadowsword and the Castellan in tournaments and have found the Shadowsword to be rather underwhelming in comparison unfortunately. 

[MARK0SIAN]

To be fair, the Shadowsword is a LOT cheaper than the Castellan. I don’t think we can really complain that a model can’t one-shot another model that costs 200 points more than it. The shadowsword is only not great against a model that costs 600+ points, has relics, a warlord trait and has had at leat 3 or 4 CP pumped into it.

 

They are tough to take down, particularly for guard as we lack the heavy hitting melee units which are kryptonite to a knight. If you are using a shadowsword against multiple knights then I would say fire the shadowsword last. They’ll be waiting to rotate ion shields based on where that thing fires. That means they will be forced to accept all the other shots from your other units without rotating. That 200 point discrepancy between the SS and the Knight is enough for a fair few scions to drop in carrying melta guns :)

 

The other technique is to use the lager base size of the knight to your advantage, the can step over infantry but still have to finish more than an inch away. Try to deny them that space. I’ve also seen scout sentinels used to good effect against single knights. They can’t really damage it but the player I saw used the scout move and then advanced them in the movement phase and it was enough to put a barrier that he can’t step over between the knight and where it needed to go.

[librisrouge]

I started doing a quick crunch of wound efficiency, and at the max damage mark the Castellan is nearly twice as efficient in terms of damage per point spent, even though it's 200 points more.

As others have noted, thanks a ton for doing the math. I've been meaning to for this exact scenario but haven't had the time. 

 

I'm hopeful that the castellan will be hitting 'balance' (insert picture of mafia reference here) with the new CA coming soon^tm  . Even a small points adjustment will bring its performance much more in line.

 

I've lately tried a list, but only a few times, with a SHD of IG tanks, specifically a baneblade and two shadowswords. So far, its been particularly effective against knights. All of the tanks are dangerous to a castellan, so they save the rotate for it. That means my baneblade and one of the shadowswords get to pick on the other knights by themselves. Humorously, I've found that the best course of action for a multi-knight list is often to rotate the 2nd most important knight up to a +4 and use the WL trait to make the Castellan a +4. Two +4s are often more frustrating than a +3 and +5. If they're down to just one knight, I can play the objective game with my infantry swarm.