shanewatts Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 So with the flowchart that GW put out months ago, units can still take options from the index entries. Example is a Space Marine Dreadnought with double autocannon. This in mind, looking at the Custodian Guard index dataslate, can we still take the Vexilla in the squad that grants +1 attack for the unit? Friend brought this to my attention and I agree this seems do-able, but weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 The intent of the flowchart ruling is to allow you to continue to use models that no longer have rules in the main Codexes. This doesn't apply here, because what was previously a squad of 5 Custodians including a Vexilla is now considered to be a squad of 4 Custodians and a separate Vexilus Praetor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Agreed it’s no longer legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 So following the flowchart I think this is the argument. Custodian Guard is the model/unit in question. Does it have a datasheet in a codex? Yes Are there wargear options that only appear in the index version of this data sheet? Yes (Power dagger and vexilla, neither of which are the same name as current options.) (PS I think this is semi-abuse of RAW, and against RAI.) Use the codex version of your datasheet (Custodian Guard), But you can choose to use the index version for its wargear options. Note that if the wargear has rules in the codex, these replace the index rules. (So taking a Vexilla on a Custodian guard model and/or power dagger.) I really think this is silly, but want to be able to prove it one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I would advise against taking a vexilla in a Guardian squad - you will probably get some funny looks. I have seen several TOs ruling against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 I am not going to haha, friend is trying to do some craziness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I am pretty sure the ITC doesn't allow it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 I haven't seen anything in writing the explicitly deems this illegal, not even from ITC. Its certainly something that would need to be brought to a TOs call right now I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I wouldn’t do it - seems shady. I have been to itc events where it wasn’t allowed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynnean Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 What was the base for the decision, if i may ask? RAW there isnt anything really stopping one from pulling this off right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 What was the base for the decision, if i may ask? RAW there isnt anything really stopping one from pulling this off right? The thing is, TOs can (and have done at the recent Nova open in the case of a disagreement about split fire rules and the rotate ion shields stratagem) make a ruling based on the rules intent rather than RAW. It is a misconception that they must rule based on RAW. In this case it is pretty clear that GW did not intend the squad to be able to take the vexilla. Therefore a TO would be within their rights to rule against it. You cannot approach it with the mentality that ‘Nothing specifically forbids what I’m doing.’ As that’s going way beyond being ‘that guy’ to being a munchkin player instead. The other principle to look at is that you are only allowed to use the index version for things that do not appear in the codex. However the vexilla does appear in the codex, it’s just on a different unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 The option hasn't been omitted. The rules and units have been updated. The answer is no. PS: I really dislike the stink of WAAC attitudes in the question, in effect trying to unlock a cheaper Vexilla. Shameful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 This is suuuuuuuuper janky. The reason the index flowchart exists is to let people have rules for models that are no longer produced by GW. For example, the "Chaplain on Bike" is a model that is no longer produced or there is no official mode for a "Librarian with Jump Pack" without a kitbash. The Vexilla model however, still exists and has had it's function changed entirely - therefore the index option is no longer valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 Ishagu I truly hope you aren't referring to me. It isn't even good, so how that would be WAAC is beyond me. As I said earlier, I think this is silly and just wanted to clarify the situation. This isn't something I want to do or utilize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Oh I can think of several advantages. Definitely shows a desire to try and bend the rules for WAAC purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 So lets break down what this would do. One guardian from a squad would give the rest of the squad +1 attack. Each guardian has 3 attacks base, so in a 3-4 man unit there would be no net gain (lose the spear on the vexilla bearer.) So you would need to make this squad large to get some benefit, and a large squad needs 1-2 storm shields. Extra swings for sentinel blades are nice, but not great, so you need to make sure that you have enough spears to still benefit. So truly to maximize you are looking at a 10 man unit. 1 vexilla, 2 shield/blades, 7 spears. You are only netting 4 spear attacks that you wouldn't get if the vexilla was carrying a spear instead. And this is a 552pt unit, that you have to put into reserve to get into combat before it gets shot up. Also missing a spear on vexilla loses attacks on a Avenge the Fallen stratagem. This unit will suffer the same problem as a normal 10 man guardian unit, once it is placed, it is not going very far from that point and is a big point investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 It makes the Vexilla much more survivable and frees up an elite slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 And it's a single drop. And it means you can teleport the squad AND Vexilla for 1CP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted October 18, 2018 Author Share Posted October 18, 2018 Sure, but that vexilla only gives that squad +1 attack. It is not even good. Do you have problems with too many drops as Custodes? And running out of elite slots? Not something I have really ran into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Why do you keep trying to defend this WAAC ploy ? Sure, but that vexilla only gives that squad +1 attack. It is not even good. Do you have problems with too many drops as Custodes? And running out of elite slots? Not something I have really ran into. Not everyone runs mono Custards bruh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 It's not about it's actual effect in-game. It's about dishonesty, rules bending and being against the spirit of the game (even though the last one is a personal measure). I'd say that the caveat that "Note that if the wargear has rules in the codex, these replace the index rules" applies here. That Vexilla option no longer exists because the model is now used for the other Vexilla options in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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