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Big FAQ 2 discussion


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#151
Schlitzaf

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Sisters can legally be used alongside Primaris, Astropaths and Wyrdwanes. Just for the record.
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#152
Beams

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Sisters can legally be used alongside Primaris, Astropaths and Wyrdwanes. Just for the record.


Ok, so, uh 1 max CP and I have to buy a man to lead my all-female force?

Edited by Beams, Today, 03:25 PM.


#153
Schlitzaf

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Do female primaris pyskers not exist? And interesting by RAW it’s a detachment including a SoS keyword unit needn’t include an HQ. Not one wholly composed of SoS Keyword. So you could take one SoS and two Astropaths as a funny trivia.

Legion of the Damned could do two LoTd squad and any Astartes elite choice.

Edited by Schlitzaf, Today, 03:35 PM.

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#154
kombatwombat

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I think that's likely because GW doesn't see this as a problem. And it isn't. Allies should be in the game. They shouldn't be inherently weaker because people mischaracterize 'pure' armies as somehow inherently superior. The problem is Guard CP batteries, and to a lesser extent, Ynnari. Solve that first before we start outright killing allies.


It think you’re missing the point here because of a core misunderstanding - which is that allied/Soup armies, completely separately from what those armies are or internal balance issues, simply have the massive advantage of being able to plug structural faction weaknesses. The idea here is not to crush Soup because elitist Pure players want their army to be better. It’s to balance the huge fundamental advantage Soup has with either a downside, or giving Pure armies an equivalent advantage.

Us big nasty Pure players aren’t trying to steal your Soup from you!
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#155
Beams

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Do female primaris pyskers not exist? And interesting by RAW it’s a detachment including a SoS keyword unit needn’t include an HQ. Not one wholly composed of SoS Keyword. So you could take one SoS and two Astropaths as a funny trivia.

Legion of the Damned could do two LoTd squad and any Astartes elite choice.


I honestly don't know? I know that the model they sell is an angry bald guy.

#156
Lexington

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It think you’re missing the point here because of a core misunderstanding - which is that allied/Soup armies, completely separately from what those armies are or internal balance issues, simply have the massive advantage of being able to plug structural faction weaknesses. The idea here is not to crush Soup because elitist Pure players want their army to be better. It’s to balance the huge fundamental advantage Soup has with either a downside, or giving Pure armies an equivalent advantage.


Thing is, "Pure" is a somewhat loosely-defined concept that's a result of the player base, rather than the game. There's no inherent reason for "pure" armies to get a boost to make them competitive. "Pure" isn't an army in the architecture of 8th, it's just a way some players choose to play due to how the game used to work. 8th doesn't recognize Codexes in any way - they're a publishing artifact. 8th only cares about Factions and Keywords.

 

In this sense, "Soup" isn't a problem because it's inherently better than mono-Codex, it's a problem because it elevates a narrow fraction of factions and a single army building strategy above others to a pretty ridiculous degree. It's a fine distinction, but it's one that needs to be embraced if we're going to talk about 8th on its own terms.


Edited by Lexington, Today, 04:12 PM.

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#157
BlackTriton

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Thing is, "Pure" is a somewhat loosely-defined concept that's a result of the player base, rather than the game. There's no inherent reason for "pure" armies to get a boost to make them competitive. "Pure" isn't an army in the architecture of 8th, it's just a way some players choose to play due to how the game used to work. 8th doesn't recognize Codexes in any way - they're a publishing artifact. 8th only cares about Factions and Keywords.

In this sense, "Soup" isn't a problem because it's inherently better than mono-Codex, it's a problem because it elevates a narrow fraction of factions and a single army building strategy above others to a pretty ridiculous degree. It's a fine distinction, but it's one that needs to be embraced if we're going to talk about 8th on its own terms.


While you are right that "pure" army is a concept that does not exist in 8ed, its also something that is wished for by what seems to be a large portion of the PlayerBase.
I see no reason not to trow a bone to single codex armies in the form of a few CP or unique stratagem.

But really, unless you play at the highest level of the game, the discrepancies between allies or no allies lists is pretty small. its mostly bad books and unskilled players that makes the games unfair.

#158
Lemondish

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I think that's likely because GW doesn't see this as a problem. And it isn't. Allies should be in the game. They shouldn't be inherently weaker because people mischaracterize 'pure' armies as somehow inherently superior. The problem is Guard CP batteries, and to a lesser extent, Ynnari. Solve that first before we start outright killing allies.


It think you’re missing the point here because of a core misunderstanding - which is that allied/Soup armies, completely separately from what those armies are or internal balance issues, simply have the massive advantage of being able to plug structural faction weaknesses. The idea here is not to crush Soup because elitist Pure players want their army to be better. It’s to balance the huge fundamental advantage Soup has with either a downside, or giving Pure armies an equivalent advantage.

 

And I don't think that's a problem. I also don't think it's a fundamental advantage. It's actually a disadvantage to have to seek answers outside of your army where the bonuses and benefits you've tried to include into your list need to make way for basic things like bubble wrap, board control, and currently CP generation. It isn't a huge issue now because the CP generated gets used by your heavy hitters. Solve that and you all of a sudden need to think about what you're allying in. Solve the troop disparity in Imperium and you'll start seeing a variety different allies, or none at all if the opportunity cost of devoting points to a secondary force's CP pool.

 

I would love to have these options internally for every army, but some weren't designed that way, and that was intentional and acceptable.

 

My concern with all these suggestions for handling allies in such a heavy handed way is that they all disproportionately harm pure armies that do not have valid internal options. Some factions have all the answers internally while other factions are built to seek them via allies. I see absolutely zero problems with that and believe it should be encouraged, not discouraged. I'd rather some units in a book be viable rather than the entire book, in itself, being worthless. I don't want to go back to that. I don't want to see people punishing certain pure armies by imposing additional disadvantages than they already face before we actually tackle the real problem - undercosted units that perform better than a majority of your other options while generating CP for your elite gem munchers. 

 

The problems we have are with outliers and CP generation. I have said it a few times already, but soup is not a problem. Being able to grab allies is not a problem.

 

But I think at this point I'm just rehashing the same position over and over again. I sincerely hope to not see any change that kills ally use by forcing penalties for doing so because I feel that disproportionately harms Knights, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, et al - factions that do not have the ability to supply the kind of troops you need in 8th edition 40k.



#159
Trevak Dal

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I’m not a fan of the fly changes at all. If you’re worried about 0 inch charges just set a rule saying 3 inch is the minimum charge distance possible. This new rule stops units charging over screens which is exactly what things like assault marines should be able to do.

Or measure base to base, vertical distance counting.

I'm not holding my breath or anything but I'm going to walk away if the next thing coming doesn't do a lot of good for my Greyknights and my crisis suits.

Edited by Trevak Dal, Today, 06:45 PM.

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#160
Dark_Master

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Anyone here ever been in actual hand to hand combat? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could land via parachute or disembark from a APC, let alone some damn flying motorcycle and be vaguely effective in hand to hand until their momentum was adjusted and got their feet bearings under them. Shooting yes, but a knife fight? Forget it.


I always imagine Jump Pack assault happening like approx 59 seconds in.



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#161
Lord Raven 19

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I sent this email to the GW faq team:

I think that an alternative fly rule could be they are only able to charge over infantry and swarms but take overwatch from what they charge over as well.
Also, a space marine points decrease would be very welcome.
As well, I think that maybe the damage on a plasma decimator and cawl's wrath could be increased by one, especially if the castellan goes up in points.
To be fair, I think that all volcano weapons should have the no invulnerable saves rule to bring them more in line with their background.
Also, considering they were made by a primarch, the raven's talons need a serious buff and I would suggest something along the lines of Strength+2 Ap-4 Damage3 and no invulnerable saves but maybe changing Kayvan Shrike to 200 points.
Please consider my points.

Any ideas or improvements?
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#162
Black Orange

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Here is an example why horde is so good...
Take a maximum squad of Trzangors. Take Dark Matter Crystal. First turn use DMC to reposition them 9” from enemy line. Next use psy powers to make them -1 to hit, +1 invul then warp time them up into the grill. This is mostly psy power and only requires one relic. Even if you can deny warp time they need an 8” charge with a reroll.
Space Marines have nothing close to this level of buffing.


That's not a great example to show why hordes are so good. It's a great example of something TSons are capable of. They can (and do) pull the same thing with a huge blob of Rubric Marines as well. I don't think we need yet another example to showcase why hordes are good tho. Nobody is even trying to deny it at this point except for Schlitzaf. ^^

Nobody would use Tsons because they cost a lot more points. You missed the point. A lot of units that lend themselves to horde level size inherently have access to buffs that make them much better than a Space Marine .

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#163
sfPanzer

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Here is an example why horde is so good...
Take a maximum squad of Trzangors. Take Dark Matter Crystal. First turn use DMC to reposition them 9” from enemy line. Next use psy powers to make them -1 to hit, +1 invul then warp time them up into the grill. This is mostly psy power and only requires one relic. Even if you can deny warp time they need an 8” charge with a reroll.
Space Marines have nothing close to this level of buffing.


That's not a great example to show why hordes are so good. It's a great example of something TSons are capable of. They can (and do) pull the same thing with a huge blob of Rubric Marines as well. I don't think we need yet another example to showcase why hordes are good tho. Nobody is even trying to deny it at this point except for Schlitzaf. ^^

Nobody would use Tsons because they cost a lot more points. You missed the point. A lot of units that lend themselves to horde level size inherently have access to buffs that make them much better than a Space Marine .

 

 

You mean nobody except for those who use blobs of 20 Rubrics?


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#164
Ficinus

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I think the pure/soup/ally debate really is just a way of dancing around the problem that competitive armies don't look fluffy most of the time. Seeing Magnus, Ahriman, and three daemon princes leading a horde of cultists just doesn't feel like the Thousand Sons army I should be seeing. Actually, I don't think I've ever seen a non-character chaos space marine in my (limited) tournament experience, despite seeing lots of chaos space marine armies. Of course that's the tactical choice and one can come up with fluff reasons, but I doubt all those people were trying to make Lost and the Damned style armies.

#165
Black Orange

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@ sfPanzer

My observation is in regards to top tier tournament armies - I was giving one example.

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https://greenblowfly.../alan-seds.html - Terminus Est - Ultramarines 247
wc.jpg

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