Strategem for going 2nd

[Skerr]

Maybe some of you caught the latest Batrep on YT from Mini wargaming.com where 1000 Sons were basically wiped by turn 2 against Sisters of Battle.

 

Sisters siezed the initiative with the 1000s player having points in Magnus and trying a summoning strategy (which he got off turn 1 going 2nd bringing 3 DPs, though it was too late). With a unit of scarabs in reserve the 1000 sons had minimal points on the board to begin with.

 

Granted it was a short deployment zone with minimal terrain or los blocking and sisters had vast amounts of models in comparison. The 1ksons player conceded before his second turn

 

Though it made me wonder how effective would the new defensive strat be (+1 cover?) be in similar situations? Has anyone used it?

[WarriorFish]

It's a beta rule so not everyone is using it, but I think it'll be good. Such that I'm not sure why you wouldn't use it going second. Maybe you could save the Command Points if you're up against a less shooty opponent or can hide well enough? Otherwise it'll help a lot to reduce the potential disadvantage that comes get not getting your licks in first. It also means that it's more viable to start on the table, rather than having to hold units off the table (which I'm not keen on, less so in number).

[Panzer]

I haven't used the beta Stratagem yet, however I've been using the Dal'yth Sept tenet for T'au which gives free cover for not moving units (so turn 1 everyone) so I already have some experience with soaking up alpha strikes with help of cover bonus on the whole army.

So let me say it like this ... the better a units armour save is, the more they profit from it. Pathfinder with a native Sv5+ barely got more durable. They still die in droves even with cover bonus. Fire Warriors with a native Sv4+ got a satisfyingly increase in durability but nothing to brag about. Anything with a native Sv3+ got a LOT more durable (Tanks and Battlesuits mainly) and everything with a native Sv2+ was more or less impossible to shift since even against Lascannons they'd have a 4+ save.

 

So yeah the new beta Stratagem will help a lot to survive turn 1 going second. Going first will still be better but it won't be as game deciding anymore. However I honestly think the cover bonus should be a default bonus for going second without costing 2CP since almost everyone who's going to go second will spend those 2CP anyway.

Daemons are the clear loser here since they don't benefit from cover as much (or at all in most cases) and they also don't have anything to force their opponent to spend those 2CP on that Stratagem due lack of ranged pressure.

[Skerr]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I expect it to be an autoinclude in most cases as well.

[Prot]

I think if Quirk was playing no Thousand Sons, I have trouble taking too much to heart from those games. That said I think the Strat should be 1 CP. it reminds me of old night fight. The thing is going first is so strong, why don’t we just make it one CP? As mentioned some armies hardly benefit ( for multiple reasons).

 

With Thousand Sons on a decent table, I shouldn’t need it, but if I’m playing on planet bowling bowl, then yes it’s pretty darn good with All is Dust.

[FirstSonofHorus]

Tbh it should be -1 to hit, does not stack with other modifiers. 

 

For TS it won't affect Tzaangors, has limited effect on Rubrics and Terminators. Might be nice for vehicles. For most it is almost a no-brainer but for us it is very situational.

[Raven1]

Honestly, i dont think its near enough to help out people who go 2nd. It should be 1cp if not free.

 

I also think 8th edition should use advantsge and alternate shooting like Kill team. That would severely hamper someones ability to destory another side first turn.

[Prot]

I agree there are some attractive things I've noticed about Kill Team and often thought about the You go, I go system. It works well in a small game like Kill team, but I can't help thinking it's going to be too slow for 2K games.

 

I also agree they needed to do something to help the second player. This is at least a start. Not a great one, a good one. It is also negated by many units in the game, and some traits like Iron Warriors, Imperial Fists. Units like Centurions, Tau, AdMech, etc. 

 

But it's a start. I don't like the total kill on Deep strike in T1 and saw absolutely no problem with it working in your own zone.  But anyway the going second strat is a start. It shows they recognize the disadvantage is a bit much when playing pure shooty armies which dominate. (Let's hope Orks change that.)

[Gabocius]

Imho, main interest of this new stratagem is to offer new opportunities during deployement. 

Before, you had to totally hide or at least get cover for most of your army to sustain first turn.

Now you'll be able to deploy more agressively and still benefit from cover. Quite situationnal but still an option if needed...must admit that TS may not be the army to benefit the most of this new stratagem.

[Raven1]

@Prot I dont see how it would slow the game down, execpt more units might get to shoot in the shooting phase as opposed to just pack up your models. Probsbly like most others here i have been on the recieving and delivering end of a game over Turn 1 and it just isnt fun. If your are at a tournament and its cut throat competitive sure, but otherwise it just isnt fun. That is my other complaint about it. It doesnt help every army. Elite armies now have even less CP if they go second, some armies/units ignore any benefit it would have provided, some armies would gain no extra benefit since it doesnt stack or rather dont have to waste the extra CP. I honestly have only played one game of 40k since killteam came out. I like the ruleset and speed a whole lot better.

[Prot]

It’s just the nature of people Raven. People aren’t always ready. Going back and forth will reset their strategies depending on their opponents’ responses. I guarantee it would be unplayable in a tournament setting.

[Quixus]

It's a beta rule so not everyone is using it, but I think it'll be good. Such that I'm not sure why you wouldn't use it going second. Maybe you could save the Command Points if you're up against a less shooty opponent or can hide well enough? Otherwise it'll help a lot to reduce the potential disadvantage that comes get not getting your licks in first. It also means that it's more viable to start on the table, rather than having to hold units off the table (which I'm not keen on, less so in number).

The problem is the wording. Anything that ignores cover also ignores the stratagem. A straight up +1 to saves would be a lot better to mitigate alpha strikes.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

 

It's a beta rule so not everyone is using it, but I think it'll be good. Such that I'm not sure why you wouldn't use it going second. Maybe you could save the Command Points if you're up against a less shooty opponent or can hide well enough? Otherwise it'll help a lot to reduce the potential disadvantage that comes get not getting your licks in first. It also means that it's more viable to start on the table, rather than having to hold units off the table (which I'm not keen on, less so in number).

The problem is the wording. Anything that ignores cover also ignores the stratagem. A straight up +1 to saves would be a lot better to mitigate alpha strikes.

This. And because so few armies get to ignore cover it might be overlooked and released as is...