Back after Hiatus, Primaris overpowered (internally)?

[xxvaderxx]

So im back after a Hiatus and i find that GW is underhandedly facing out regular marines, i find this troubling.

 

 

For this comparison i took for instance Longfangs vs Hellblasters.

 

In minimal units, of plasma canons vs heavy plasma incinerators are 154 vs 175 points, and while they have comparable damage output depending on the Hellblaster variant, they have DOUBLE the wounds.

 

Am i missing something? is GW simply phasing out regular marines and making us rebuy our armies?.

[Redtoof]

That depends who you ask. It’s fair to say I think pretty much everyone agrees regular marines are currently overcosted. They might drop in points or get a significant buff in chapter approved at the end of the year. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[Panzer]

Honestly if I weren't playing a pure Primaris army I'd take Devastators and Longfangs over Hellblaster any day simply due the Stratagem support they get.

[CaptainMarsh]

Long Fangs, Devastators, Tacticals, etc. are inferior in a direct comparison to their Primaris brothers. What devastators and their ilk have as an advantage is their modularity and ability to adapt. Yes you could go Plasma Cannons, but you also have Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, Grav-Cannons w/Amps, Missile Launchers, and Multi-Melta. Plasma Cannons and Incinerators don't play well, but the Devastators are able to handle vehicles better (LC, hordes cheaper (HB), tear through power armor esque forces brutally (GC), have utility option (ML), or waste points (MM). One of them can hit on a 2+, someone can fire again, and you can have a full squad with ablative wounds. Hellblasters are still awesome.

[mertbl]

So much long range D2 or better primaris aren't- too much better than regular marines.

 

Regular marines shine in there utility. The ability to tailor cant be underestimated/undervalued.

 

Whole codex needs an overhaul though.

[Lord_Caerolion]

As others have said, where standard Marines win is their adaptability. Sure, Hellblasters have 2 wounds, but they're set with their plasma weaponry, as opposed to taking any other heavy weapons. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hellblasters are one of the better units in the SM codex. Long Fangs are better though because of the stratagems.

[Irbis]

Am i missing something?

 

Yes, the fact you're about the only one who thinks they are OP. Everyone else agrees they are really underpowered. Yes, they have two wounds. So what? In the current massive (and frankly stupid) proliferation of D2 on stuff that really shouldn't have it, W2 is really just more expensive W1. Also, show me one Primaris unit that can embark a Rhino, Razorback, or other cheap transport. One Primaris unit with lascannons, heavy bolters, or decent melee capability. One Primaris unit that can deep strike (yes, Reivers technically can if you upgrade them, but then you're paying 100 pts for 5 scouts who unlike SM scouts can't even take something as "threatening" as power sword, never mind anything better). Etc, etc, there is a reason people think only DW Primaris are good (because they are about the only ones with a bit of real bite) but even on those dumb pricing of their rifles pretty much locks them into one suboptimal build...

[Closet Skeleton]

Helblasters make Plasma cannons irrelevant, but Plasma cannons wouldn't be good anyway. Company vets with plasma guns are essentially bad Helblasters while being also in many ways better than plasma cannon devastators. Heavy d3 shots at longer range just has so many disadvantages over rapid fire.

 

Specific heavy weapons jumping around in viability happens every edition change, its not about phasing anything out. Remember when Centurions and their grav cannons phased out other kinds of devastators entirely?

[xxvaderxx]

Helblasters make Plasma cannons irrelevant, but Plasma cannons wouldn't be good anyway. Company vets with plasma guns are essentially bad Helblasters while being also in many ways better than plasma cannon devastators. Heavy d3 shots at longer range just has so many disadvantages over rapid fire.

 

Specific heavy weapons jumping around in viability happens every edition change, its not about phasing anything out. Remember when Centurions and their grav cannons phased out other kinds of devastators entirely?

 

The issue is not the weapon, is the weapon-chasi combination, tomorrow GW comes up with HellBolters and makes your Heavy bolter devastors obsolete.

 

Case in point, there has been not a single regular marine kit released since the first incestors.

 

Infact, compare Storm bolter power fist terminators vs bolter gauntlet aggressors. Their durability is very comparable, melee are the same, Aggresors put out a S$$% load more fire power out there and they are cheaper.

[Lemondish]

 

Helblasters make Plasma cannons irrelevant, but Plasma cannons wouldn't be good anyway. Company vets with plasma guns are essentially bad Helblasters while being also in many ways better than plasma cannon devastators. Heavy d3 shots at longer range just has so many disadvantages over rapid fire.

 

Specific heavy weapons jumping around in viability happens every edition change, its not about phasing anything out. Remember when Centurions and their grav cannons phased out other kinds of devastators entirely?

 

The issue is not the weapon, is the weapon-chasi combination, tomorrow GW comes up with HellBolters and makes your Heavy bolter devastors obsolete.

 

Case in point, there has been not a single regular marine kit released since the first incestors.

 

Infact, compare Storm bolter power fist terminators vs bolter gauntlet aggressors. Their durability is very comparable, melee are the same, Aggresors put out a S$$% load more fire power out there and they are cheaper.

 

 

Well, the first part is actually something to worry about (if this type of stuff concerns you) considering heavy bolter devastators are part of the higher end competitive lists - particularly for MW fishing. Stratagem support is still superior for the squat frowny marines, though, and unless these "HellBolters" count as heavy bolters for stratagem use, you'll still miss out on that. 

 

The second one really isn't that bit of a deal. Aggressors still aren't all that great - taking the place of a very bad unit while doing that job just a tad bit better doesn't really make them overpowered. There are still a variety of things Primaris just can't do right now, like their character game being pretty weak. Character units (not just named characters, but all characters) are superior with the frownsters because of their adaptability and flexibility in wargear options. Transports are also superior for squats. The sheer selection of vanilla marine units means you have a unit to do any role you can dream of. 

 

Just sucks that every marine choice is subpar at doing it lol In any case, the units Primaris replace right now, like your Aggressor/Terminator example, don't include a lot of the best units marines can bring. There's no Razorback equivalent, or scouts, or scout bikers, or devastators outside of a good plasma heavy option, or Primaris characters that aren't just flavourful Lieutenants.

[Panzer]

There already are "heavy bolter" primaris even. It's called Inceptors. While strong they still don't properly replace the odd Heavy Bolter in a Marine list due lack of Stratagem support tho.

 

And about the chasis being so much better ... naked Primaris do cost more than naked regular Marines and if you face lots of D2 and D1d3 weapons you traded a lot of points and support for +1A.

 

So yes, it really is about the weapon, not the chasis.

[Ishagu]

I personally think Primaris are indeed better, and as they look better it wasn't hard for me to switch my focus to them.

 

I understand that we are in a period of transition, and as such the rules don't support Primaris as fully as I would like. They lack options, some key unit roles and stratagems. This will change in future and I'm really looking forward to it!

[Closet Skeleton]

 

The issue is not the weapon, is the weapon-chasi combination, tomorrow GW comes up with HellBolters and makes your Heavy bolter devastors obsolete.

 

I built my sole heavy bolter devastator after Inceptors were released and my missile launcher devastators have been obsolete for 6+ years. My assault marines are also still obsolete and nothing has actually come along to replace them; they're just inefficient compared to the death company and vanguard veterans who have been around the whole time.

 

Its not just internal balance that makes things obsolete. A unit can be points efficient and yet also sub par because its optimal targets fall out of the meta. My entire Black Templars army was never especially great and is now essentially obsolete because it can't deal with the amount of shooting you can put in an army these days.

 

Primaris might indeed make your army obsolete but that was going to happen anyway.

 

 

There already are "heavy bolter" primaris even. It's called Inceptors. While strong they still don't properly replace the odd Heavy Bolter in a Marine list due lack of Stratagem support tho.

 

 

They also have short range and a not especially relevant fly move that hikes up the price. Inceptors have made heavy bolter attack bike squadrons pretty useless but were they ever that great? On that same note, seen any landspeeders recently?

[Schlitzaf]

Black Templars are best place we have been in years; best been sense mid 5th Edition. That is not saying very much admittedly. But we have been best place we have been in awhile. And in terms of Primaris v OldAstartes. Crusaders are more or less on par with Intercessors.

 

I said this elsewhere, but Crusaders and Grey Hunters in the past we’re just better than Tacticals. And the former (Crusaders) were mechanically the main reason to take Templars as a chapter over other Chapters. What happened this edition is that, Intercessors are a generic better tactical troop equivalent unit. Like bluntly Tacticals are just terrible. And most units are defined how they are Tacticals but better.

 

But have been Templars been obsolete or Primaris power creep old Marines? Beside Intercessors to Tacticals. Not really.