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Chapters still making standard Space Marines


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#151
Xisor

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It's almost like Reivers are just Intercessors armed differently.

That would appeal to me in the sense of differentiating Space Marines in general.

That is there isn't really a difference, person to person. It's their outfit and intended survivability and role and resource investment on the day that's different.

I like that.

If you're not a Scout, you're next in line for Chapter Master, just like everyone else.

Reinforce the hyper-training and hypno-psychic jiggery-pokery, dismiss the internal contortions needed for Marine A I a Hellblaster and good at X, whilst B is a Reiver and good at Y.

Both can do both, but for any given day you need a little bit of column A superhuman outfit, a little bit of column B superhuman outfit.

#152
sfPanzer

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It's almost like Reivers are just Intercessors armed differently.

That would appeal to me in the sense of differentiating Space Marines in general.

That is there isn't really a difference, person to person. It's their outfit and intended survivability and role and resource investment on the day that's different.

I like that.

If you're not a Scout, you're next in line for Chapter Master, just like everyone else.

Reinforce the hyper-training and hypno-psychic jiggery-pokery, dismiss the internal contortions needed for Marine A I a Hellblaster and good at X, whilst B is a Reiver and good at Y.

Both can do both, but for any given day you need a little bit of column A superhuman outfit, a little bit of column B superhuman outfit.

 

That's literally what the Codex currently is. They are all the same apart from their equipment and some being veterans with +1A.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#153
Xisor

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On datasheets, yes - but we often get bogged down in thoughts of Chapter progression - Scout, Dev, Assault, Tactical - reserve companies and so forth.

I'm proposing that that's broadened - that Captains aren't especially notable relative to Joe the Devastator (marginally better, person to person, but gets the fancier
machine spirt in the armour and sword).

And indeed, the old progression is mostly disregarded. It seems to have been for Primaris. If the learning can be cut for both, then the nature of *being* a 9th Company Devastator versus a 1st Company Terminator might be a lot less abut the individual and capability, a lot more about deployment, configuration, support assets (fleet vs rapid strike vessel).

Thinking aloud, so to speak.

#154
Kinstryfe

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On datasheets, yes - but we often get bogged down in thoughts of Chapter progression - Scout, Dev, Assault, Tactical - reserve companies and so forth.
I'm proposing that that's broadened - that Captains aren't especially notable relative to Joe the Devastator (marginally better, person to person, but gets the fancier
machine spirt in the armour and sword).
And indeed, the old progression is mostly disregarded. It seems to have been for Primaris. If the learning can be cut for both, then the nature of *being* a 9th Company Devastator versus a 1st Company Terminator might be a lot less abut the individual and capability, a lot more about deployment, configuration, support assets (fleet vs rapid strike vessel).
Thinking aloud, so to speak.


I think with previous lore you had two sorts of facts at odds with each other. One is that every Astartes is a hero in his own right with a list of accolades and victories. The other is that every Marine is trained to an incredibly high standard on everything, with only the occasional Astartes standing out as exceptional. The two just don't mesh very well. I do like a similar interpretation to you, and think that there's enough supporting it for it to make sense. In fact, i think it makes more sense for Captains to be simply those who are slightly better at tactical thinking I'm certain ways, rather than those who excel in combat, but I get that for a game they're played up differently.

I do really like the idea though that every Marine is an army unto himself, and has enough training to handle whatever he needs to. The scout to devastator to assault to tactical to elite works insomuch as there has to be some order they're trained in, but I can't imagine that you're a devastator until someone dies to free up a space, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are more than a few brothers in the IXth company who have already done a tour of duty as an assault marine and are just waiting to move up. Similarly I don't see why they wouldn't just move on the training at a certain point regardless of everything else. So I imagine dropping a naked Marine from orbit turns into a montage of him killing an Ork, skinning it for clothes, stealing it's weapons, and eventually ending with the Marine firing off missile launchers while steering a landspeeder with his knees. So woe unto anyone who thinks they'll have an easy time facing the IXth company because I doubt they're less capable than the IInd, they just play a little looser with their organization since they're usually seconded elsewhere.

Carrying that over into Primaris makes sense too. Issue whatever is needed, just like how a tactical line Marine can fight as a tactical, assault, heavy weapon, support weapon, driver, biker, or likely kitchen staff.
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#155
Xisor

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Well put.

I think I'd be keen to shift that into my own headcanon - that the Codex format is almost the 'parade deployment' - configuration for an unknown threat, in the absence of any guiding knowledge save that you have a Chapter of Marines on hand!

---

Tangentially, that reminds me of a prominent downside for Primaris.

Food.

We used to have a long distance cyclist come holiday at my dad's house for a few days or so each summer. 60-100 miles a day. Very pleasant guy.

Ate us out of him house and home whilst hardly noticing!

Meals that would normally leave us generous leftovers for days would be gone in the first pass - no chance for seconds.

I've a suspicion Carl might have been similarly cavalier where nutrition was concerned.

If they're just a bit more damn hungry and fussy than the old guard, with a more efficient programme of diet, then I could see that being a huge and annoying factor.

You can deploy Primaris from any old ship, to almost any apocalyptic warzone with a good chance of success...

But you'd better have an unholy supply chain of Universe-class cargo haulers brimming with ultra-calorie grox-approximation steaks arriving nearby, or that reconquered planet will rapidly feel like it's been devoured by Tyranids rather than rescued by Primaris Marines!

#156
sfPanzer

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You know, nothing is stopping you to use that philosophy with your own successor chapter. However for established chapters that's simply not the case and saying "this will be my headcanon now" is basically just lying to yourself lol

 

Food isn't really a concern for Marines. They can eat basically anything and they can go for long times without any food at all.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#157
Kinstryfe

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I think some of the confusion is in what the Codex Astartes is intended as, and how we tend to see it presented to us. The codex arrangement we see of a battle company consistently is 60 Tactical Marines, 20 Jump Pack Assault Marines, and 20 Devastators including 8 heavy weapons. It's often left out though that this is basically a generically optimal arrangement for typical encounters involving a whole company. By the time an Astartes is part of a tactical squad it's legit canon though that they've served as a Scout, Bolter Devastator, Heavy Devastator, Assault Marine (probably jump pack and mechanized), Biker, Speeder Crew, and finally Tactical Marine. So it's not even headcanon that Marines have all of these specialties to wear. We also know that the Codex Astartes includes best practices to warfare, even including tactics pioneered and perfected by later traitors. I don't think it's any stretch to say that the Codex not only allows for but advocates for these tactics to be used when they are the most optimal path to victory. So if Brother Cassiel is man 6 in a Tactical Squad but the circumstances call for him to get on a Speeder and go to town, it's totally within canon to expect that that is what will happen. Figure as well that 700*/1000* Marines are trained as Tactical Marines, and you get a scenario where the majority of most chapters should be comfortable doing whatever is called upon of them. It's just a shame that we don't see more of that in the fluff, because they really ignore how flexible Astartes really are.
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#158
Captain Idaho

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There's actually only 440 Tactical Marines in a Space Marine Chapter..

But your point is still valid - Marines are supremely flexible.

#159
Morovir

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Yes, but technically those in the battle companies have had to go through 9th, 8th and either 7th/6th beforehand, and so all marines in 1st-7th companies should theoretically have had training as Devastators, Assault Marines and Tactical Marines, no matter which type of squad they currently occupy.


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