Captain Idaho Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Count as is my only capacity there because my modelling potential is very limited and magnets are clearly sorcery. I reckon we'll see a few lists running Heavy Bolter Centurions now. Particularly Imperial Fists with Bolter Drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justicarius6 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Magnetising these suckers is deceptively complex as I found out to my chagrin when I tried mixing the assault and devastator loadouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Sorcery I tells thee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Sorcery I tells thee! Is not! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Firepower, must dabble in sorcery to suggest magnets are not sorcerous in nature. Which is heresy in his parts, so to speak. Dang man, you are double-dipping today! Back OT, I'm reading a lot about Dev Cents, so I have the impression Assault Cents are still on the fringes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Well they are really slow melee guys without proper deliver system. Terminators at least have deep strike. I see them about as appealing as DG Deathshrouds (read: not at all). ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptix Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Man, if there's one thing I don't miss about 7th it would be salvo. I want to use assualt centurions as my Assault Termie equivalent for my Primaris but they still need a good transport. If only Spartans weren't relics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Isn't the Spartan a Low? If it is you can just take it without any restrictions or requiring additional units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Assault Centurions didn't really get a discount. I suspect they compete too much with Aggressors and GW didn't want that... They need an expensive transport and so my opinion is still out on this one. I'm sure someone will win a tournament with 6 Flamers and 36 Bolter shots out of a Storm Raven or something but it feels expensive for the pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Assault Centurions didn't really get a discount. I suspect they compete too much with Aggressors and GW didn't want that... They need an expensive transport and so my opinion is still out on this one. I'm sure someone will win a tournament with 6 Flamers and 36 Bolter shots out of a Storm Raven or something but it feels expensive for the pleasure. If true (likely) that ould suck becuase I have 10 Aggressors (in the to do pile) and I'd buy a LRC and as many Assault Centurions that would fit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Assault Centurions are ok, considering that they have their Siege Drills baked in to their cost. They're a pretty similar cost to Heavy/Hurricane Bolter Devastator Centurions but with tank-mashing melee capabilities. Their damage output vs infantry is pretty comparable if both are taken at their optimal ranges (12" for DC; 8" for AC). So Dev Cents are best for infantry removal with less risk of retaliation, but Ass Cents are good for linebreaking infantry to get to the nougat-y tank centre! Honestly, they'd probably work reasonably well in concert: DC can add firepower to clear off chaff that the AC failed to remove; AC present a pretty brutal counter attack threat to anything looking to close on the DC/characters. AC compared to Aggressors is a mixed bag. AC are far better at shooting at 1.1-8"/18.1-24", with Aggressors being better (considering the relative costs) at 12-18". Aggressors are better at leveraging their full firepower (and firing twice can make hordes evaporate) but aren't nearly as effective against tough enemies (2 4+ 8/-3/d3 attacks each vs 2 3+ 10/-4/3 attacks each). Some Mathhammer, for those that care: 6 Aggressors (222) 3 Assault Centurions (243) We'll assume we're shooting GEQs, just cause they're easy to calculate. Thankfully their weapons are all very similar. NB: since we're taking anti infantry at range, I'll throw in the Devastator Centurions too, for reference. Ranged: 0-8" Agg: 36+6d6 [avg. 21: 57] shots - 57*0.66*0.66*0.66 = 16.4 dead AC: 36+6d6 [avg. 21: 57] shots - 36*0.66[+21=44.7]*0.66*0.66 = 19.5 dead DC: 36+18 (Heavy Bolters) or 12 (Grav) - Hurricanes: 36*0.66*0.66*0.66 = 10.3 - Heavy Bolters: 18*0.66*0.66*0.834 = 6.5 (16.8 w/ Hurricanes) - Grav: 12*0.66*0.66 = 5.2 (15.5 with Hurricanes) Functionally equivalent volume, but autohitting and ignoring cover makes AC more potent. 8-12" Aggressors and Devastator Centurions: same as above. AC: 36 Hurricane Bolter shots - 36*0.66*0.66*0.66 = 10.3 dead The Assault weapons of the Aggressors gives them the edge over the Assault Centurions as they have no fall off as distance increases. 12-18" Aggressors same again. Again. AC: only 18 shots - 18*0.66*0.66*0.66 = 5.2 DC: 18+[18/12] - 5.2+[6.5/5.2] = 11.7/10.4 Assault Centurion shooting is pretty ineffective at this range, with the Aggressors still at max damage. Devastator Centurions have fallen a significant amount (approximately 30-33% less kills) as the Hurricanes fall off. >18.1" Agg: 0! (But they can advance and fire with a higher base movement...) AC: 5.2 DC: Same as 12-18" (11.7/10.4) The results are fairly obvious: Assault Centurions massacre hordes at spitting distance, with Aggressors maintaining a great kill count at medium range, and the Devastator Centurions being ok at long range but still preferring to be up in the <12" range band to get full Hurricane Bolter effectiveness. So for horde killing firepower, it very much depends on how close you're comfortable with. Aggressors maintain their damage output at a decent range and with the double tap they can clear out cons blobs incredibly quickly. Melee: We'll assume T8/3+, as that's a pretty good benchmark: Knights, Leman Russ, Plagueburst Crawlers, etc are all reasonably common units, with Knights being a particularly important one. Aggressors: 13* 4+ 8/-3/d3 - 13*0.5*0.5*0.833*2 = 5.4 damage [NB. I'm going with the averaged 2D for the damage, as I have no other way to calculate a d3. If someone knows how, please enlighten me!] Assault Centurions: 7* 3+ 10/-4/3 - 7*0.66*0.66*3 = 9.1 damage Assault Centurions, despite their much lower volume of attacks, cause more damage thanks to their higher accuracy, S, AP and flat 3D. What about T7/3+? Aggressors: - 13*0.5*0.66*0.833*2 = 7.1 Assault Centurions: - 7*0.66*0.66*3 = 9.1 The gap is much smaller here as the major difference now comes down to accuracy. 4s vs 3s to hit is still a factor but wounding on 3s with the greater attack volume makes up for it quite a bit. Overall, the Assault Centurions are more potent than the Aggressors in melee, but they are more vulnerable to casualties, each of which strips 2/7ths of their damage out, compared to each Aggressor costing the unit much less individually. I'm not going to Mathhammer resilience, as I simply can't be bothered right now! But it's a difference of basically +1W/+1 Sv for the Centurions. The Centurions will shrug off light arms (AP0) fire massively more effectively than the Aggressors, since one dead Centurion is the equivalent of two dead Aggressors (statistically speaking, anyway). I wouldn't underestimate Assault Centurions, is what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Well, this thread turned interesting with CA. The points reduction has me looking at grav/hurricane devs. Heavy bolters might be nice, but I've already got plenty of those on tarantulas to take care of chaff (3x37p = 111p, 18 shots HB at BS4+). Lascannons seem a bit expensive for the platform, but grav/hurricane sounds just right as fire support for my midfield skirmishers. I've used grav devs extensively with my Issobomb, and can say that it does wound vehicles too unreliably, that might work but might not. But they're gold against infantry/heavy infantry, with S5 wounding reliably, AP negating most armour and in case of tougher targets switches to multi-wound (how convenient). With chaff clearing hurricanes and elite-killing grav, 1+ armour (in cover) and -1 to hit (Raptors), those might just become viable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Beta Bolters just changed the dynamic of Centurions in a big way eh. [Heavy Bolters] Now we can get 54 shots for 3 up go 24" (28" threat range) without fear of being charged. This unit just jumped up in effectiveness and it makes Marines more competitive vs hordes. All for 210pts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Beta Bolters just changed the dynamic of Centurions in a big way eh. [Heavy Bolters] Now we can get 54 shots for 3 up go 24" (28" threat range) without fear of being charged. This unit just jumped up in effectiveness and it makes Marines more competitive vs hordes. All for 210pts! The Beta doesn't do anything for Heavy Bolters though. It only affects Rapid fire Bolt weapons like the Hurricane Bolter. It's still a nice buff though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Yeah I know that, never said otherwise ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Grav Centurions with Hurricane Bolters are now very interesting for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CausticCossack Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Someone at GW who loves Imperial Fists firing masses of bolters seems to have recently come to power. First we got the one-two punch of the massive drop in Centurion Devastator cost and addition of the specialist Vigilus detachment, and now a significant improvement in bolter performance overall. The Fists can now sport a squad of 6 Centurion Devastators that spits out 72 bolter + 36 HB shots at 24" for 420 points that can be backed by a single Captain that grants automatic cover anywhere on the table plus functions as a Lieutenant simultaneously. With the mortal wound to vehicles plus Bolter Drill stratagems this unit can melt anything from massive hordes to Knights. Want more maneuverability? Take one Centurion away and the unit plus the Captain / Lieutenant fit perfectly in a LRC (which has even more awesome bolter goodness!); seems almost like this detachment was planned exactly for that. Certainly an exciting time for the sons of Dorn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I'm glad to hear the Imperial Fists getting some mileage out of these changes. It would be hilarious killing vehicles with that many bolter shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I really want to see a Marine list focussed on Bolter rocking some tournaments lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Yeah totally me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero88 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Since it's already agreed upon that Dakka Cents are a thing now, so what are thoughts on Lascannon Dev Cents with Hurricane Bolters now? My thoughts are that the bolter beta rule now makes this decent, as now you aren't having to invest in expensive and useless missiles. Is it still too expensive? A squad of 3 plus the obligatory Apothecary is a 355 point investment, but assuming you have them camped in cover (which you probably should) with IH or Salamander tactics that's a pretty hard to shift unit with some scary firepower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.