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Random questions about Codex: Chaos SM


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#1
Indefragable

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NO MY TOE IS NOT IN THE WATER.

 

<Picard maneuver> Ahem!

 

Dear Chaos Space Marine forum,

 

Couple random questions:

 

1. only units with the <Daemon Engine> keyword are eligible for the Daemonforge strategem, correct?

 

2. is there any game mechanic stopping a Chaos SM player from bringing an Allied Imperial Guard Detachment? Obviously there would be no positive interaction between units with <Imperium> vs <Chaos> in your own army, but there's nothing legally stopping you from doing so, correct?

 

3. ....before you mention Renegades and Heretics, A. where can one find rules for Renegades and Heretics B. is there any major apples-to-apples advantage to GEQ bodies being RH instead of IG?

 

4. Is Tide of Traitors able to be used on a unit that is locked in combat?

 

5. Iron Within, Iron Without: can be used on on <Iron Warriors> unit, so it does not have to be a multi-wound single model, correct? So you could use it on a Chaos Space Marine or Cultist squad so long as they have the <Iron Warriors> keyword. Likewise, you could use it on something like a Fellblade as long as it has the <Iron Warriors> keyword

 

6. Let's say your <Black Legion> <Word Bearers> <Iron Warriors> or some other non-aligned Heretic Astartes force. Fluff aside (I know, I know!), is there any game mechanic that could stop say a <Black Legion> Sorcerer from casting Diabolic Strength on a <Black Legion> Chaos Lord with a Mark of Khorne?

 

7. Daemon Princes are awesome, because to piggy back off of #6 above, you could take say a <Black Legion> Daemon Prince with a Mark of Nurgle and thus give re-rolls of 1 to both a unit of Plaguebearers as well as a <Black Legion> Biker squad with a Mark of Tzeentch because both the DP gets to double-dip with both <Nurgle> and <Black Legion> 7b. Is there any reason not to abuse the :cuss out of this not do this?

 

8. Exalted Champions provide the ability re-roll all To Wound in combat...but is there any way to get any sort of re-roll To Wound for Shooting?

 

9. Chainaxe vs Chainsword. Axe gives you +1S and AP-1 while the sword gives +1A. Seems like the Chainaxe is a remarkably efficient way to give Sgts of all stripes a little (chain-toothed) edge in combat. Am I missing something or is there some math hammer reason to stick with a Chainsword besides saving some points?

 

Thank you all.

 

-Indy


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Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#2
Mekhitar

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I can’t answer everything, but here is my starter rundown...

1. Yes. Maulerfiends, forgefiends, defilers, heldrakes, and a few big beasties.

2. Your army has to have a keyword in common. Imperial guard and csm don’t share any keywords. You could do I narratively I suppose, but not in matched play.

3. Not my wheelhouse...

4. You can indeed use tide under these conditions.

5. Correct also.

6. You can go ahead and cast powers on khornate units. Prescience on zerkers is truly awful, for example, especially when targeting a Imperium units, as dttfe triggers on 5s. Add in the Black Legion trait and it actually goes off on 4s.

7. Your DP can indeed buff both, but it is harder to pull off than it looks - and you will need to take daemon hqs anyway, which can often be DPs too. (Unless you are summoning?) To be honest I have only used it the other way around - giving rerolls to possessed and daemon engines wth a daemon DP, since they have some nice relics (witstealer, skulltaker).

8. No. Sadly. Actually it makes me pretty mad. But we DO have VotLW, the game’s best strat, and daemonforge is pretty cool too.

9. The only reason I don’t give everyone a chain ax is lack of bitz. :P All of my zerkers are equipped with both, and I’ve heavily raided every other bitz bin to make that happen!

Hope this helps :)

Edited by Mekhitar, 23 October 2018 - 05:17 PM.

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#3
micahwc

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3: Renegades and Heretics are in the Forgeworld Forces of the Astra Militarum index for some strange reason.


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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#4
N1SB

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Hi Brother, as someone phasing out the R&H elements within his army, I'll just answer this:

 

 

2. is there any game mechanic stopping a Chaos SM player from bringing an Allied Imperial Guard Detachment? Obviously there would be no positive interaction between units with <Imperium> vs <Chaos> in your own army, but there's nothing legally stopping you from doing so, correct?

 

3. ....before you mention Renegades and Heretics, A. where can one find rules for Renegades and Heretics B. is there any major apples-to-apples advantage to GEQ bodies being RH instead of IG?

 

2. As above, we took R&H instead of IG because the lack of the <Chaos> faction keyword is what stops us legally from taking IG.

 

3A. R&H rules are in Forgeworld's Imperial Armour - Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.  It also includes some FW specific vehicles/artillery that R&H can get.

 

3B. No, there are no major advantages to GEQ.  In fact, Cultists may be better off than R&H because of Legion Tactics and buffs you mentioned later in your post.  There is a minor advantage as one of the Elite R&H units, Renegade Marauders, are the only Chaos unit that can take Sniper Rifles.

 

+++

 

R&H was a neat "loophole" for Chaos to get some IG stuff, but now it became kinda obsolete because since its release in early 8th, better stuff has come out AND the really cool things in R&H got nerfed hard by points cost hikes in the 1st Chapter Approved.  I myself am phasing out things like FW artillery units in favour of Renegade Knight Armiger Helverins due to both reasons.

 

Keeping this short for clarity.  Happy to help because it looks like you got some cool ideas.


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#5
40kChris

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3B. No, there are no major advantages to GEQ.  In fact, Cultists may be better off than R&H because of Legion Tactics and buffs you mentioned later in your post.  There is a minor advantage as one of the Elite R&H units, Renegade Marauders, are the only Chaos unit that can take Sniper Rifles.

 

 

 

I agree with this.  

 

I used to run larger blobs of mutants and militia but why would you now when a standard Cultist can can fill that roll better and get Legion Traits?  I was collecting for a mutant rabble themed army but then 8th came along and R&H changed dramatically plus you can no longer get the Giant Chaos Spawn as a unit... and I have 3, which you could do in the LoW slot.

 

Now I just use my R&H for a HS Detachment of all the big guns and HW teams.  A Punisher Russ with HB sponsons and a hull mounted HB can put out a lot of shots with Grinding Advance  Also, I think their Chaos Spawn is still cheaper.


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#6
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Next set of questions:

 

10. Veterans of the Long War can be used with Cultists?

 

11. Chaos Familiar: a Sorcerer has <Mark of Tzeentch>. Turn 1 you can then cast Weaver of Fates and Warptime.  Next Turn you use this to drop Weaver of Fates power and pick up Prescience instead. You cast Warptime + Prescience, then pop The Great Sorcerer...how do you determine what "free" power you get to cast?

 

12. Chaos Terminators: besides the ability to build-a-bear with combi- and melee weapons, the thing that makes these fellas so potent is your ability to add the Chaos <Marks> to get even more mileage out of them.

-Slaanesh: can shoot twice with Endless Cacophony (the notorious double-tapping overcharged plasma)

-Tzeentch: roll around with a 4++ ala Weaver of Fates and maybe throw out a free MW with the Icon

-Nurgle:  throw some Miasma of Pestilence on them, pop Iron Within, Iron WIthout (if you're IW) to save a few wounds, then use Grandfather's Blessing in your turn to revive a dead one. That's some hardy dudes: -1 To Hit 2W 2+/5+++/6+++

-Khorne:  drop in Turn 2, re-roll charges with Icon of Wrath, then fight twice ala Fury of Khorne....but there's probably better units for that, from Berzerkers to Warp Talons/Raptors even.

 

13. The Chaos Daemons listed in the Troops section....how do you take them as Troops in a Chaos: Space Marines detachment? They don't have <Legion> Keyword...


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Call me Indy. It's less syllables.

 

 

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#7
Leonite

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Next set of questions:

 

12. Chaos Terminators: besides the ability to build-a-bear with combi- and melee weapons, the thing that makes these fellas so potent is your ability to add the Chaos <Marks> to get even more mileage out of them.

-Slaanesh: can shoot twice with Endless Cacophony (the notorious double-tapping overcharged plasma)

-Tzeentch: roll around with a 4++ ala Weaver of Fates and maybe throw out a free MW with the Icon

-Nurgle:  throw some Miasma of Pestilence on them, pop Iron Within, Iron WIthout (if you're IW) to save a few wounds, then use Grandfather's Blessing in your turn to revive a dead one. That's some hardy dudes: -1 To Hit 2W 2+/5+++/6+++

-Khorne:  drop in Turn 2, re-roll charges with Icon of Wrath, then fight twice ala Fury of Khorne....but there's probably better units for that, from Berzerkers to Warp Talons/Raptors even.

 

13. The Chaos Daemons listed in the Troops section....how do you take them as Troops in a Chaos: Space Marines detachment? They don't have <Legion> Keyword...

 

I'll let others answer the others, but these two are my specialty

 

12. Pretty much yeah on all points, although I'm not so sure about the Tzeentch one. About all that Khorne Terminators would have over Warp Talons is that they're more durable. Mind you, that can still be useful given Overwatch

 

13. Summoning. They're probably in the codex for ease of reference.


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#8
40kChris

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10. Yes because of the keywords, but I would not be surprised if that goes away at some point.

 

11.  NA

 

12. Overcharged Plasma Slaanesh Termies seem to be the go to anymore, but I usually opt for MoS Oblits in that roll.  Berserkers are gross... if you want really gross go World Eater Berserkers.  If you want a higher mobility Khorne Termie don't forget the Renegade trait... DS, Advance, and Charge with re-rolls on the charge is larger threat range.

 

13. As Leonite pointed out... summoning.... which is not a good mechanic right now as it forces your characters to be static.  If you want them in your list you will break the Legion trait if they are in the same detachment.  If you want to use demons just using another detachment out of the Demons codex would probably be better, you could get some more synergy out of it(i.e. Heralds and demonic CSM units... like Oblits), and you could DS some of those units down instead of summoning.

 

Some of this is covered in the appropriate FAQs as well.



#9
RobWrath

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12. But you can't advance on the turn you deepstrike, can you? I thought that the DS counted as the movement phase so all you can do is shoot or charge?

#10
sfPanzer

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That's right. When you arrive from reserves you can't move at all that turn aside from making a charge.
 
 

NO MY TOE IS NOT IN THE WATER.
 
<Picard maneuver> Ahem!
 
Dear Chaos Space Marine forum,
 
Couple random questions:
 
1. only units with the <Daemon Engine> keyword are eligible for the Daemonforge strategem, correct?
 
2. is there any game mechanic stopping a Chaos SM player from bringing an Allied Imperial Guard Detachment? Obviously there would be no positive interaction between units with <Imperium> vs <Chaos> in your own army, but there's nothing legally stopping you from doing so, correct?
 
3. ....before you mention Renegades and Heretics, A. where can one find rules for Renegades and Heretics B. is there any major apples-to-apples advantage to GEQ bodies being RH instead of IG?
 
4. Is Tide of Traitors able to be used on a unit that is locked in combat?
 
5. Iron Within, Iron Without: can be used on on <Iron Warriors> unit, so it does not have to be a multi-wound single model, correct? So you could use it on a Chaos Space Marine or Cultist squad so long as they have the <Iron Warriors> keyword. Likewise, you could use it on something like a Fellblade as long as it has the <Iron Warriors> keyword
 
6. Let's say your <Black Legion> <Word Bearers> <Iron Warriors> or some other non-aligned Heretic Astartes force. Fluff aside (I know, I know!), is there any game mechanic that could stop say a <Black Legion> Sorcerer from casting Diabolic Strength on a <Black Legion> Chaos Lord with a Mark of Khorne?
 
7. Daemon Princes are awesome, because to piggy back off of #6 above, you could take say a <Black Legion> Daemon Prince with a Mark of Nurgle and thus give re-rolls of 1 to both a unit of Plaguebearers as well as a <Black Legion> Biker squad with a Mark of Tzeentch because both the DP gets to double-dip with both <Nurgle> and <Black Legion> 7b. Is there any reason not to abuse the censored.gif out of this not do this?
 
8. Exalted Champions provide the ability re-roll all To Wound in combat...but is there any way to get any sort of re-roll To Wound for Shooting?
 
9. Chainaxe vs Chainsword. Axe gives you +1S and AP-1 while the sword gives +1A. Seems like the Chainaxe is a remarkably efficient way to give Sgts of all stripes a little (chain-toothed) edge in combat. Am I missing something or is there some math hammer reason to stick with a Chainsword besides saving some points?
 
Thank you all.
 
-Indy


Next set of questions:
 
10. Veterans of the Long War can be used with Cultists?
 
11. Chaos Familiar: a Sorcerer has <Mark of Tzeentch>. Turn 1 you can then cast Weaver of Fates and Warptime.  Next Turn you use this to drop Weaver of Fates power and pick up Prescience instead. You cast Warptime + Prescience, then pop The Great Sorcerer...how do you determine what "free" power you get to cast?
 
12. Chaos Terminators: besides the ability to build-a-bear with combi- and melee weapons, the thing that makes these fellas so potent is your ability to add the Chaos <Marks> to get even more mileage out of them.
-Slaanesh: can shoot twice with Endless Cacophony (the notorious double-tapping overcharged plasma)
-Tzeentch: roll around with a 4++ ala Weaver of Fates and maybe throw out a free MW with the Icon
-Nurgle:  throw some Miasma of Pestilence on them, pop Iron Within, Iron WIthout (if you're IW) to save a few wounds, then use Grandfather's Blessing in your turn to revive a dead one. That's some hardy dudes: -1 To Hit 2W 2+/5+++/6+++
-Khorne:  drop in Turn 2, re-roll charges with Icon of Wrath, then fight twice ala Fury of Khorne....but there's probably better units for that, from Berzerkers to Warp Talons/Raptors even.
 
13. The Chaos Daemons listed in the Troops section....how do you take them as Troops in a Chaos: Space Marines detachment? They don't have <Legion> Keyword...

  • That's wrong. It says DAEMON VEHICLE so the target unit needs to have the <DAEMON> and the <VEHICLE> keywords. With no word are <DAEMON ENGINE> mentioned.
  • The core rules for matched making. Each unit in a detachment your army needs to share at least one faction keyword.
  • I blank there. I don't really use Forgeworld stuff.
  • Yes.
  • Correct. If it doesn't say it has to be a unit with multiple wounds per model then that's not the case obviously.
  • No, nothing is stopping you from doing that.
  • That's right and one of the reasons why Daemon Princes are the best HQ in the Codex.
  • Sadly not but VotLW is better anyway.
  • Chainaxes are mathetmatically better. You aren't missing anything, it's just GW not doing a very good job at balancing again.
  • It doesn't differentiate between Marine and not-Marine units so yes of course you can.
  • The one you have left. A Chaos Sorcerer knows Smite + 2 powers but can normally cast only two of those. "The Great Sorcerer" allows you to cast all three that turn. So in your example it would be Warptime, Prescience, then pop "The Great Sorcerer" for the Smite.
  • Not sure what your question there is. Seems more like an observation. Yes Chaos Terminators are a lot better than imperial ones. Mostly due their ability to take multiple special weapons in the same unit tho. The Marks are a nice bonus to that.
    • Especially Slaanesh Plasma Terminators got used a lot before people switched to Slaanesh Obliterators which will be less seen with the new reserve rules again
    • Tzeentch: The Icon sucks a lot, don't waste points on it. The 4++ is neat tho.
    • Nurgle: Nice but most Nurgle players are now Deathguard players and there Blightlords are simply better. Also you can't combine two FnP-like abilities for quite a while now. If you have two of them you have to decide which one you use to try and prevent the damage.
    • Khorne: They're fun but not as fun or efficient as Berzerkers in Rhinos. Tho I'd say they are better than Raptors by far.
  • They are just there for reference in case you want to summon them. You are better off just taking a small Daemon Patrol detachment in that case tho. That way you get all the benefits from the Daemon Codex and if you want a little bit more than a Patrol detachment then you even get some CP. Literally the only benefit of summoning is that you can theoretically get in "reserves" after turn 3. A comparable small benefit tho, especially since most games should be decided after the third turn anyway ... same reason why it makes not much sense to hoard CP into late game.

Edited by sfPanzer, 26 October 2018 - 08:52 AM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#11
Trevak Dal

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Wait...if you have a chaos detachment and a Tau detachment, doesn't that satisfy the qualifier for having everything in a detachment share a keyword, or is it that all detachments of an army need to share a keyword?

Guard and Tau and arguably orks and Genestealer cults should be available for everyone to Ally with.

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#12
sfPanzer

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Sorry I meant in the army of course. All units have to share at least one faction keyword in your army. My bad. sweat.gif


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#13
40kChris

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RobWrath and sfPanzer, thanks for pointing that out... I haven't played enough since the FAQs to get everything cemented in place.  I edited my previous post for it, thanks again! sweat.gif



#14
RobWrath

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RobWrath and sfPanzer, thanks for pointing that out... I haven't played enough since the FAQs to get everything cemented in place.  I edited my previous post for it, thanks again! sweat.gif

 

Neither have I but I've thought about it a bit as being able to advance as well as DS would make it MUCH more likely you could make a T2 charge.


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#15
Mekhitar

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Regarding the Great Sorcerer...

Your best use is to take a tzee Sorcerer with, say, warptime and prescience. (You can list any 2 powers here.) Then, you use Chaos Familiar to swap out smite (one of the powers he knows) for, say, Death hex.

Now you have a Sorcerer who knows warp time, prescience, and death hex, but not smite. Since he has a Tzeentch mark, on any turn you can pop The Great Sorcerer to cast an additional power, and then cast all 3 dark hereticus powers.
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#16
Closet Skeleton

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12. Chaos Terminators: besides the ability to build-a-bear with combi- and melee weapons, the thing that makes these fellas so potent is your ability to add the Chaos <Marks> to get even more mileage out of them.

 

Chaos Terminators are not potent in any sense. With nerfs to warptime they're just over-priced regular terminators with the option to be even more over priced.

 

Slaanesh terminators are bad obliterators, nurgle terminators are bad blightlords, tzeentch terminators are bad scarab occult. None of the non-cult legion traits are good for terminators.



#17
Midnight Brotherhood

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Slaanesh terminators are still pretty potent, I deck mine out with power fists and give them delightful agonies for the 2+ / 5++ / 5+++. They may not be as shoot as obits but they mulch stuff in melee on the turn they come in.

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#18
sfPanzer

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Yeah if you happen to make the 9" charge which is unfortunately not very likely to happen.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#19
Mekhitar

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I like slaanesh terminators for when I'm playing less competitive games.

(And I like my converted grey knights :P)


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#20
RobWrath

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Yeah if you happen to make the 9" charge which is unfortunately not very likely to happen.

 

 

Well, it's 28% likely to happen, which isn't great odds. If you play 4 games and do it each time, you'll make that charge once.

Using a re-roll one one of the dice should boost the probability up a bit.

 

If I have the banner of Wrath I can re-roll a failed charge - can't work out what that would to to my chances.



#21
sfPanzer

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Yeah if you happen to make the 9" charge which is unfortunately not very likely to happen.

 

 

Well, it's 28% likely to happen, which isn't great odds. If you play 4 games and do it each time, you'll make that charge once.

Using a re-roll one one of the dice should boost the probability up a bit.

 

If I have the banner of Wrath I can re-roll a failed charge - can't work out what that would to to my chances.

 

 

It's not just not great odds. It's terrible odds. 50% is already bad odds because it's not reliable. Using the Banner of Wrath will increase the odds but unless both your dice are 3 or less you want to use the re-roll Stratagem. With the re-roll Stratagem you still get only to about 40%. You want odds >50% for your rolls. Everything else is gambling. 


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#22
Indefragable

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Are Chaos SM able to use things like Medusas and Basilisks in 40k?

 

If so, which rulebook are they in? I have the Imperial Armor: Index Forces of Chaos, but don't see anything in there.


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#23
Daemon Prince Marbas

Daemon Prince Marbas

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Marines cannot. However, Renegades and Heretics can, but their book is Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

#24
Indefragable

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I'm sure this question has been asked a thousand times already, but with Prescience's +1 To Hit, does that mean that you can never burn your fingers overcharging plasma?

 

Similar interactions have yielded inconclusive answers (such as a Space Wolves character with BS2+ getting +1 To Hit on the charge or a Dark Angels/Space Wolves character with BS2+ getting +1 WS due to the Lion and the Wolf Stratagem).


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#25
Mekhitar

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As the rules stand now, a character who hits on a 2 with prescience (or a similar ability) giving him +1 will miss, because natural hit rolls of 1 always fail.

A model who shoots plasma and rolls a 1 to hit, +1 for prescience, will miss, because 1s always miss, but he won’t splat himself, because the final total is a 2.

Unless he is shooting something with a minus to hit - or unless GW changes the rules to “natural” 1s causing death, th way it is in Kill Team.
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