Q's about BT armor scheme and faction relations

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Didn't the BT also believe in the imperial truth instead of the imperial cult. It feels as though there was a huge leap in much lore from 1/2ed to 4th.

Yes. That was probably more recently than 4th however.

The fluff expansion happened in 3rd, for me the genesis of the Black Templars is the 3rd edition cover itself. Everything is there, tabards, individual heraldry, the whole religious Knight theme. All from one source.

The fluff then developed more formally in later 3rd with the Index Astartes article, (where our colour scheme was based off dwarfer Matt Hudson's own army,) and then codex Armageddon, where Librarians were removed, Armageddon led to the codex and the rest is history.

 

That 2nd edition picture has me thinking however, somewhere there must be a picture of a 2nd/early 3rd edition BT army which had a Librarian, because they weren't banned back then. Has anyone ever seen one? I'd love to use it to trigger the BT Facebook group!

[Ciler]

It's actually from 6th edition onward that that particular aspect was reconed, but :

- it's straying into off-topic territory

- it's a particularly nasty can of worms around here

[Phantomzero17]

 

After saving Brother Tyler's image I made this album of the scheme guides I could remember from the books in my room.  If there are any others ya'll can think of I can add them to the album.

 

3rd, 4th, 7th, Primaris, and 8th ed accounted for.

Just for the sake of completeness, here's the 2nd Edition scheme for the Black Templars:

 

**snip**

(Click on the image if you want to see it biggerized!  )

Yes, brothers, the Black Templars were originally conceived as a Codex Chapter. I'm sure that many of you would like to pretend that never happened.

 

 

Gracias.

 

It appears uploading it to the gallery was a mistake as I can't edit it.  So v2 up but not to the gallery so things could be potentially added in the future.

[Sete]

After saving Brother Tyler's image I made this album of the scheme guides I could remember from the books in my room. If there are any others ya'll can think of I can add them to the album.

3rd, 4th, 7th, Primaris, and 8th ed accounted for.

Just for the sake of completeness, here's the 2nd Edition scheme for the Black Templars:

(Click on the image if you want to see it biggerized! )

Yes, brothers, the Black Templars were originally conceived as a Codex Chapter. I'm sure that many of you would like to pretend that never happened.

And crimson fists were the original fists. :P

That horrible tastless arrow on the shoulder pad. Terrible, Just terrible.

[Arganias]

To answer your question about factions they get along with.

 

I believe they have a relatively close kinship with their Brother Chapters (Those from Dorn's line). They also seem to get requested by the Ordo Hereticus since they both really are not fans of psykers and mutants. So long as outside Imperial factions respect their autonomy and don't covet witches and the impure they tend to get along relatively well with most; they just need to have the same goals.

 

I could be wrong, but that is my take on it.

[Marshal Rohr]

The old formula I followed was:

 

Initiates: White Field with Black Cross

Assault Initiates: White Field with Black Cross and red armor trim

Sword Brethren: Black Field with Red Cross

Castellans: Black Field with Red Cross (since they are selected from the sword brethren and not permanent ranks in the old fluff)

Marshals: Black Field and Gold Cross

Chaplains: Black Field and White Cross

High Marshal: Gold Field and Black Cross

[Closet Skeleton]

Didn't the BT also believe in the imperial truth instead of the imperial cult. It feels as though there was a huge leap in much lore from 1/2ed to 4th.

 

No Space Marine chapter has ever believed in the Imperial Truth, which is a Horus Heresy novels retcon that no mainline 40k codex has ever referenced, the first Heresy novels came out in 2006 while the BT codex was 2005 (4th edition itself was 2004). Space Marine chapters have individual cults that have evolved over thousands of years and are therefore incredibly distant from any heresy era creed.

 

Black Library fluff and Codex fluff have always been developed out of sink with BL stuff only sometimes drifting back into the wargame.

 

 

Didn't the BT also believe in the imperial truth instead of the imperial cult. It feels as though there was a huge leap in much lore from 1/2ed to 4th.

Yes. That was probably more recently than 4th however.

The fluff expansion happened in 3rd, for me the genesis of the Black Templars is the 3rd edition cover itself. Everything is there, tabards, individual heraldry, the whole religious Knight theme. All from one source.

The fluff then developed more formally in later 3rd with the Index Astartes article, (where our colour scheme was based off dwarfer Matt Hudson's own army,) and then codex Armageddon, where Librarians were removed, Armageddon led to the codex and the rest is history.

 

The first expansion for the BT fluff was the 3rd edition Space Marine Codex which introduced The Emperor's Champion and the updated colour scheme (based off the John Blanche cover). The fluff differed only in that it mentioned that the position of Emperor's Champion was not unique to the Templars, only most notable among them (the rules said Templars only, a restriction that was briefly lifted in errata).

 

The Black Templars Index Astartes article was in White Dwarf 249 (September 2000) which actually included two articles from that series, the other being an overview of Third Armageddon War chapters. The Third War for Armageddon campaign itself was launched in the preceding issue and the codex would have been released at the same time (so before the Index Astartes article).

 

The 2003 Index Astartes collection included both the Black Templars article and the rules from Codex Armageddon.

 

So there's no gap in development between Index Astartes and Codex Armageddon, one was essentially an advert/expansion of the latter.

 

 

 

I believe they have a relatively close kinship with their Brother Chapters (Those from Dorn's line).

 

BT take part in the Feast of Blades along with other sons of Dorn but BT don't get along well with anyone so I'd expect them to be actually pretty unpopular, they'll receive formal respect but won't actually make any friends.

[Brother Tyler]

I disagree with the assertion that they "don't get along with anyone." They may be arrogant, but official lore definitely portrays them "getting along" (i.e., cooperating) with plenty of other Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. The High Marshal coordinated the efforts of the Adeptus Astartes fleets during the Third War for Armageddon, an act that wouldn't have been possible without being able to get along. The Black Templars cooperated with a Dark Angels force on at least one occasion (perhaps to their doom ). Grimaldus showed a great deal of respect for the Celestial Lions and, by extension, all scions of Rogal Dorn.

"Making friends" is quite different for the combat-focused Adeptus Astartes, and the Black Templars and their attitudes are largely representative of the majority of Chapters. They are aloof and autonomous; they are (rightfully?) convinced of their transhuman Adeptus Astartes superiority; they are zealous in their mission and intolerant of those they find lacking. There are some Chapters that are more "friendly" such as the Salamanders and Ultramarines, but I don't recall any Chapters that are anywhere near the My Little Pony level of friendship. The overwhelming majority of Chapters could be described as "unfriendly" in normal human terms. The Black Templars might be a touch more extreme than the average Chapter (at the institutional level), but they are far from the most extreme. Chapters such as the Iron Hands (explicitly described as insular), Carcharodons Astra (appear to relish combat against wayward Adeptus Astartes forces), the Unforgiven (will apparently go to any lengths to protect their secret, up to and (possibly) including attacking forces of the Imperium, including Adeptus Astartes), and Firehawks (bellicose, even against other Chapters) come to mind. Don't get me wrong, there are some nuances to the Black Templars, and fans of the Black Templars are quick to promote those nuances. In the aggregate, though, the relative level of "cooperation" that the Black Templars have demonstrated isn't significantly lower than that of other Chapters. At the very least, Grimaldus's aid to the Celestial Lions demonstrates that the Black Templars do "make friends" (insofar as that term might apply to the Adeptus Astartes).

[Jarl Caldersson]

Well Sons of Dorn, I started up a Lt (Sword Brother). I think I got the steel/silver metal down on the eagle, and used a dark slightly brown tinted metal on the joints. I think it preserves the extraordinary black and dark colors while still standing out. Waiting on some edge highlighy paints and reds from Vallejo model air line to paint the rest. Let me know what you guys think so far.

 

http://imgur.com/QNMxp72

 

PS anyone know a good site to upload pics without losing detail?

[Marshal Rohr]

BnC gallery has never let me down.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Up

 

I have troubles with BnC gallery and uploading on my phone's so hopefully this works.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I like the paint job so far and I think bot overly converting primaris is good Idea Do introduce a heterogenous look in the army. For a Temlar Officer I feel like more purity seals or some form of knightly decorations are in order. Maybe just chains to the sword and bolt pistol or a shield at the shoulders. Or just some purity seals.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I like the paint job so far and I think bot overly converting primaris is good Idea Do introduce a heterogenous look in the army. For a Temlar Officer I feel like more purity seals or some form of knightly decorations are in order. Maybe just chains to the sword and bolt pistol or a shield at the shoulders. Or just some purity seals.

 

Thank you, I wanted to do chains but couldn't find any in this part of the world. I do have some Black Templar bits I was going to place on later so I wouldn't obscure and details. 

 

I am thinking of just  highlighting with just grey but not sure how that will turn out. Getting anxious for this paint to get in.

[Brother Tyler]

...I wanted to do chains but couldn't find any in this part of the world...

Have you tried an Internet search for "model railroad hobby shops" or similar? Worst case scenario - you might order some chains through an online store.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

...I wanted to do chains but couldn't find any in this part of the world...

Have you tried an Internet search for "model railroad hobby shops" or similar? Worst case scenario - you might order some chains through an online store.

I am in Korea and I don't know the Korean language. Found a place that sells stuff and they didn't know where to get things like that. Korea stikes me as a place where you don't really do/build things with your hands. Wanted to build a bedframe, however nowhere to get lumber. From my understanding ding manual labor is a sign of being poor/lowly/uneducated. Which is a vast difference from how I was raised, "Want something your way, going to have to do it yourself".

 

If I get around to a captain I will have to get some chains for sure.

[Canadian_F_H]

I follow the 3rd edition "scheme" - some combination of red, black, and white, at least one Maltese cross, and personal litanies:

...believe their place is below a BT.

After all, doesn't that apply to everybody? ;)

I think I remember the article this was with. Or maybe a different article bit Indo remember whatever I had read basically said, BT do whatever the heck they want with their heraldry.

There was little rhyme or reason according to the author. From the simple versions elsewhere in this thread to tons of script, small crosses, multiple crosses, other icons in conjunction with crosses... Siloettes of crosses. Any combination of black, white and red.

I know because I started painting a few of my BT up different at the time because of it... Wish I still had that and all the other BT articles and things from WD back in the day.

Oh and as for BT being codex compliant prior to the armageddon book. There was a bat rep in WD of black templars VS dark eldar and they were played straight out of the 3rd edition vanilla marine codex!

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Do you know which WD that was? I don't recall it, I'd love to see if they had a Librarian!

[Brother Tyler]

Do you know which WD that was? I don't recall it, I'd love to see if they had a Librarian!

The (first) image I posted was from the Index Astartes article, released in concert with Codex: Armageddon that included the rules and army list. This was when the Black Templars were retconned from a Codex Chapter (second picture I posted) into the Chapter we now know. There were definitely not any librarians for the Black Templars from 3rd edition onwards (unless we count the 6th/7th edition retcon where they once had psykers long ago, but through the grace of the Emperor and Dorn no longer have them blah blah blah...).

The blurb that Canadian_F_H mentioned about the (3rd edition) Black Templars not having a "Chapter Approved" scheme (my words) was from neither the Index Astartes article nor Codex: Armageddon. It was actually in a White Dwarf article about painting the Black Templars. I may have the article somewhere in the garage, but there's a chance that it was purged when I was down-sizing. Regardless, I basically summarized it in my first reply in this topic - Black Templars of the 3rd edition era would have the basic black and white scheme, and battle-brothers would individualize their armour decorations with the Chapter badge (as many as they want!) and lots and lots of personal litanies.

Here are some pictures from way back when, also from two White Dwarf articles and showing Matt Hutson's army (one article was about his army and the second was actually a Third War for Armageddon batrep in which Matt Hutson's Black Templars army boarded an Ork Space Hulk):

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I was referring to the battle between BTs and Dark Eldar Canadian was referring to. I've never seen it and I have most of the 3rd edition WDs.

[Canadian_F_H]

Now that I think of it... It is entirely possible it may have been in a pamphlet? It was clearly meant to accompany the launch of 3rd edition because of the BT vs D-eldar match-up

On a side note... Back when I started playing at the launch of 3rd edition I ended up starting BT a while before the armageddon codex... I... I had a librarian... Sorry...

I repainted him as soon as I got the armageddon codex. Used him as an inquisitor straight from the BRB. it allowed the agents to be attached to any Imperial army, and there were no real ally rules yet so BT weren't explicitly forbidden from having a psychic ally... But I never remember using him... Oh well.

This is him now...

Reclaimed for the Imperial fist expansion IV event.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

That sounds more likely. The 3rd edition starter box had the new tactical squad kit and the new dark Eldar warrior kit, plus the first plastic Land speeder. I did a quick check through the early 3rd edition WD archives and the early 3rd battle reports were IF v Orks and Dark Eldar v IG. Shame, I'd love to see a codex compliant BT army. It would be so weird!

[Brother Carpenter]

The third ed colour sceme is the one i still use. White pouldrons w black crosses and black helmet for initiates. White pouldrons no crosses for neophytes and black pouldrons with white or red crosses with white helmet for sword brothers.

I started as a codex compliant chapter with devs and whirwind.

After a year or so codex armageddon came out and i had to do some reshuffeling.

[Canadian_F_H]

Yep. I actually was about to pickup a pair of devastator squad boxes and a pair of whirlwinds when my codex armageddon came in... Lol.

 

 

As for color schemes. I kind of always took it as varying from one crusade to another.

 

So to me, the color scheme from codex armageddon is the scheme used by the armageddon crusade for example...

 

So long as the scheme is primarily black and white with red as an accent color, and you use the Templar cross profusely You? Can do whatever you want so long as it doesn't mimic a codex complaint scheme.

 

Note the example army in the armageddon codex doesn't do the red trim on its assault squads. They are just crusader initiates with jump packs. There is a comand squad in another picture. the apothecary is all white with a black cross and white trim. the marshal is the same as an initiate. the comand squad memebers are black pauldrons black trim and red crosses.

 

 

I feel silly. The image describing painting BT with unique spins on their heraldry from initiate to initiate is IN codex armageddon...

 

[ChaosRising]

I was referring to the battle between BTs and Dark Eldar Canadian was referring to. I've never seen it and I have most of the 3rd edition WDs.

I am 99.9% certain I still have this WD in my collection. If you guys still want pictures, I'll be happy to help.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's most definitely a white dwarf campaign. Before the old Librarium was lost to history I had an up to date list of every picture of BT in white dwarf. Cephian IV is the name of the campaign, iirc?