Lemondish Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Hey everyone! Thought I'd open up a topic to discuss some of the post FAQ big tournament list results for fun. First up, SoCal Open results! Deathwatch lists placed 27th, 46th, 47th, 162nd, and 163rd out of 171 lists. Top list was from Mr. Evans with a bunch of mixed Veteran squads all with storm bolters, a couple Terminators in each, a Vanguard Vet too, and a bunch of storm shields. Nothing we haven't seen before regarding Vets, but the allies were unique with a Supreme Command Space Wolves detachment with Njal, a couple Rune Priests, and Murderfang (!!!) alongside an allied DA battalion with scouts, a Librarian, and a Lieutenant. Another list was piloted by Mr. Woods: a heavy focus on Primaris with one Kill Team packing full Aggressors and another with Plasma Inceptors. This was attached to a Dark Angels Batt with a Talonmaster, Sammy, scouts, and a DA Plasma Inceptor squad. Mr. D'Amore's list was fun: Xiphons, Assassins, DW Terminator Hammer squad, and Primaris Kill Teams. This list had the most points committed to DW than any other list, and had some unique unit choices, particularly a Terminator squad sporting Thunder Hammers and a couple Xiphons. Went 4-0 to begin the tournament, and was the one I was following the closest. Out of the lower placed guys, only one had a list on BCP - Mr. Bratcher, sporting a Guard CP Battery, a single Culexus, and a couple really eclectic mixed Veteran squads. Also brought a Corvus, a Ven Dread, and a Bike squad. Seriously, this list had a lot of fun and cool looking units, even if they weren't too effective or points efficient. It was the only list with Frag Cannons, for instance. Not only that, but it sported a neat heavy weapon Vet team with a Cyclone Terminator, stalkers, and missile launchers. Another Vet team rode in the Corvus I assume with a bike, a Terminator, and some Frag Cannons (the only list to bring frag cannons, seriously I'm surprised). Also no Storm bolters on vets, very few storm shields at all, and definitely appeared to be a list curated out of love and favourite models rather than waac, I feel. A rambling summary... This is a small sample size, but Primaris seem to do good work with the common builds folks have discussed around these parts for awhile. That being said, the storm bolter/shield Vet squads with Terminators to tank low AP shots did great in the matchups I followed for Mr. Evans. Mr. Bratcher unfortunately finished really low, but I think it's important to note his list had a huge focus on traditional ranged anti-armour firepower exclusively from DW sources, relying heavily on missiles from the Corvus, the Dread, and the heavy weapons vet team. I imagine in a meta where everybody needs to be able to kill a Knight, the Corvus and Dread were probably dead early on, and the extra points spent on the heavy weapon infantry meant less boots on the ground, meaning it wasn't as efficient...but it was an attempt to fill a weakness using only DW units and I will always applaud that. Everyone else found different anti-armour solutions, usually through allied psykers and allied strats/weapon options in place of DW solutions. Allies are definitely common to plug DW weaknesses even if the choices aren't consistently the same here. There was also only one Guard CP battery, and no Knights, though the scout battalions in a few of the lists could qualify as batteries even if they often included other key pieces. Mr. Evans, who placed highest, brought a unique mix of allies I don't think we see often. Not quite soup - more like meat and potatoes. Us Astartes need to stick together, after all ;) Going DA instead of BA was an interesting choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 What I take from this is that soup is the way to go with Deathwatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewatch Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Very interesting, thanks for info Lemondish. It's great to see that Deathwatch army can be used competitively too. That said, I'm surprised of that Termiehammer squad, very cool :) I guess there was Captain with jumppack and TH with them, right? Was that termie squad and pair of Xiphons the only AT he had? What about assassins, Culexus and what else (I have assassins vanguard detachment in my most recent list but so far only Culexus seems to work reliably)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 What I take from this is that soup is the way to go with Deathwatch.Soup is the best way to go for everyone that can, but especially true for DW that lacks about half of the most important unit types for this edition lol Very interesting, thanks for info Lemondish. It's great to see that Deathwatch army can be used competitively too. That said, I'm surprised of that Termiehammer squad, very cool :) I guess there was Captain with jumppack and TH with them, right? Was that termie squad and pair of Xiphons the only AT he had? What about assassins, Culexus and what else (I have assassins vanguard detachment in my most recent list but so far only Culexus seems to work reliably)? Yeah, a TH watch captain and one each of Calidus, Eversor, and Culexus. I've personally been tooting the Xiphon's horn for awhile in DW, but fear it'll get the FW Chapter Approved treatment (along with the Levi) soon :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriade Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Anyone have the deathwatch lists from the iron halo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 Anyone have the deathwatch lists from the iron halo? Can't pull it up just yet, but iirc the Iron Halo was preFAQ so it was mostly all dominated by the old meta of infinite CP for the Knight/Smash combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azaiel Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Interesting bit of info, thx for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriade Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Anyone have the deathwatch lists from the iron halo? Can't pull it up just yet, but iirc the Iron Halo was preFAQ so it was mostly all dominated by the old meta of infinite CP for the Knight/Smash combo. Yes it was but DW took second best I can see so while it may be slighly out of date I would still like to know what he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I don’t see DW being adversely affected by the FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 I don’t see DW being adversely affected by the FAQ. Sorry, my bad. My purpose wasn't so much to highlight DW being affected directly by the FAQ, but rather to highlight a bit of how the competitive meta is shifting and use it as a baseline of how effective (or ineffective) certain DW builds may be. It's also great to see some of the more odd picks and choices made. Mr. D'Amore's use of hammer Terminators is a good example of a non-standard unit being used pretty effectively (he was 4-0 in the first day, and had a few things gone his way, could have easily been top 15). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriade Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Right but given how knight heavy the tourney was and i cant seem to find the list there is something to be gleamed from this list actually doing well. Because all my current list concepts basically involve how much forgeworld can i crutch on atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 Right but given how knight heavy the tourney was and i cant seem to find the list there is something to be gleamed from this list actually doing well. Because all my current list concepts basically involve how much forgeworld can i crutch on atm. From what I can see, the highest Deathwatch list at Iron Halo placed 51st, piloted by Mr. Kiser, with a second list placing 58th by Mr. Evans (who placed 27th at the SoCal open, as mentioned in detail in the first post). The second overall was Mr. Merker with Ynnari, and went 6-0-0. Mr. Kiser used a standard Knight/AM CP Farm/BA Assault build, but swapped the Knight for a DW Battalion at 811 points with a jump Libby, watch master, two frag cannon 5 man vet squads, and 1 vet squad equipped with storm bolters and chainswords that included a biker, a blackshield, and a vanguard veteran. He went 2-3-0 with this list. Mr. Evans played a similar, but slightly different list than the one he would later bring to SoCal. Looks to be the same Deathwatch components - 3 mixed 8 man Vet squads with storm bolters, storm shields, two Terminators, and a VV in each, and 1 mixed Vet squad nearly identical to the other 3 but without the Vanguard Vet. HQs were Jump Libby and Watch Master. At Iron Halo, he brought an Auxiliary Support Detachment of a DA Librarian and a Space Wolves Battalion with Njal, a Rune Priest, two squads of Blood Claws, one squad of Grey Hunters, and a Long Fang squad with Lascannons. Like Mr. Kiser, he went 2-3-0 with this list. Looks to me like he kept the exact same DW build between events, but swapped to a Supreme Command Detachment with Njal and two Rune Priests instead of the Space Wolf Battalion and swapped the Auxiliary DA detachment for a DA Battalion with scouts, a DA libby, and a Lieutenant. Quite the improvement it seems, as his performance at SoCal was 4-2-0. Shameless plug even though I get nothing out of it - if you're interesting in analyzing the meta and seeing how your favourite factions fare in major tournaments, check out the BCP app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteySödes Posted November 3, 2018 Share Posted November 3, 2018 I’m seeing that DA/DW/SW combo popping up more recently and it’s interesting. I’m curious as to how it plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 3, 2018 Author Share Posted November 3, 2018 I’m seeing that DA/DW/SW combo popping up more recently and it’s interesting. I’m curious as to how it plays. One key part you'll notice is Librarians as the common denominator. Tempest's Wrath for Rune Priests and Aversion for Dark Angel Librarians force an enemy unit to subtract 1 from hit rolls on a WC value of 6, and they stack. Being able to neuter a powerful offensive unit for a turn is a massive boon, especially against things like Knights. A Castellan on 5+ to hit isn't nearly as scary. The psychic phase is also a great source of mortal wounds, which helps fill that anti-tank gap DW has. Not to mention scouts still bring really important early board control for marines. It's no surprise to see them as a common addition at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAetherick Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Just want to share my experience with the astartes DA/SW soup. tempest's wrath and aversion (the -1 to hit powers) are amazing. They also synergize incredibly well with Culexus assassins. Basically as long as something cannot fall back and shoot/charge, you can -1 to hit a strong unit (DP, blobs of infantry, smash captains, etc) and then charge with a culexis for a no risk, barring overwatch way to shut off your opponents strongest units (with -1 and WS 6 they cant hit you) . Having them stack against things like knights is also incredibly strong. Culexus assassins also help in stopping your powers from getting denied, and gives you tons of defense vs one of DW's bigger weaknesses. Mortal wounds in the psychic phase. Losing 20 point storm bolter veterans to a WC 5 smite is probably one of the worst feelings playing DW. Scouts from the astartes battalions also help in catching smites and making sure your characters can't be targeted in the shooting phase. The best part is, it's also fairly fluffy. Assassins would be working with deathwatch, and having librarians that know powers from the other schools (honestly, this should have been a thing in our codex...). I don't really like bringing the loyal 32 and having the small scout battalion with the psykers gives me the CP I want and the psychic defense I need. Now if only we could put inquisitors in the assassin vanguard... GW why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Some more tournament breakdowns! Brothers - since last we spoke, there have been a few Majors in the ITC with some minor news on Deathwatch... WARNING: Lots of rambling text about Tournament results for DW players incoming. You've been warned First up, Warzone Atlanta. Two Deathwatch players placing 53rd and 77th. Mr. Kuuti at 53rd ran a Veteran heavy list with Knight allies. The DW battalion HQs consisted of two Watch Captains with storm bolters and power weapons - one with a jump pack (no smash captains here). This was accompanied by a 400 point (!!!) Intercessor squad of 5 Bolt Rifle Intercessors and 5 Plasma Inceptors - sarge was carrying a power sword. The rest of his list was filled with boring yet extremely effective storm bolter/chainsword Vet squads. Two 5 man squads, one 8 man with a Vanguard Vet and a Terminator, and one 10 man also with a Terminator and a Vanguard Vet. His Knight allies were a House Mortan Crusader and two Helverins. No transports for the Vets, so I imagine Teleportarium was his main way to get most of these units into the thick of it. The smaller Vet squads probably screened for the Knights a bit since the change to Fly makes that viable, though I still don't find it beneficial to stick such expensive 1 wound infantry out front to soak fire/charges. In any case - with 119 People placing in the tournament, a 53rd place finish is legit middle of the pack, so well done Mr. Kuuti! Mr. Hudgins placed 77th with essentially a full mono-DW force. The list consists of a Watch Master and a plasma pistol, jump pack, xenophase toting Watch Captain. Then two 9 man Intercessor units consisting of 5 bolt rifle Intercessors, an assault bolter Inceptor, and 3 Hellblasters with rapid fire plasma. Rounding out the Battalion is a 10 man stormbolter/chainsword Veteran squad. Here's where his list gets relatively unique compared to other DW players in the ITC so far - he brought a ven Dread with twin las and combat weapon w/heavy flamer, alongside two 3 man bike squads and a 3 man Plasma Inceptor squad. Rounding out the list is a couple of Xiphon Interceptors. I've been really high on the Xiphon for a long time as it does a pretty good job of anti-tank work for Deathwatch and looks ace while doing it. I fear it may see a price adjustment in CA, but the other rumours surrounding our overcosted AT options suggests that this may not hurt as much. The next ITC Major was this past weekend at the Renegade Open. High placements for Deathwatch this time around. Mr. Gonyo placed 20th with his DW list and Mr. Payne placing 35th out of 74. Mr. Gonyo, a pretty recognizable name in ITC 40k circles, ran a Battalion with a jump pack, thunder hammer, storm bolter captain and (gasp) a jump pack Chaplain. These two led 4 extremely mixed but identical Veteran Kill teams consisting of... 1 Watch Sergeant with Storm Bolter, Chainsword 2 Veterans with Storm Bolter, Chainsword 3 Veterans with Storm Bolter, Storm Shield 1 Black Shield with Storm Bolter, Chainsword 1 Biker with Chainsword and Teleport Homer 1 Vanguard Veteran with double Chainsword 1 Terminator with Power Sword and Storm Bolter I imagine the tactical flexibility, durability, and boatload of bonuses here made these units a blast to play. The rest of the list was allies, with a Mordian Loyal 42 (one extra Infantry squad on the CP battery) and an Imperial Knight Castellan. If I'm understanding the placings correctly for this tournament, Mr. Gonyo's 2 and 1 record was only 4 to 6 points off what was needed to make it into the top 16. Field looked fierce, and he did quite well considering. Mr. Payne at 35th ran a Battalion Detachment with jump pack Librarian, Watch Master, and mostly standard storm/bolter chainsword Vet squads with one FC heavy one. The vets consisted of 10 men with a VV, a Black Shield, and a Terminator while another Vet squad was simply a 5 man with 4 Frag Cannons. Rounding out the Battalion was the addition of a 3 man Bike squad, a Rapier Carrier quad launcher, and a Relic Leviathan. A Rhino accompanied this detachment. Allies included an aux support detachment with a single Inquisitor psyker, and a Loyal 32 boosted with 2 full plasma command squads and a Chimera. Sorry for the text dump - lots of DW action in the tournament scene the past few weeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Was that Andrew Gonyo? If yes he won NOVA this year . What does the biker do for vet squads besides soak wounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistscourge Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Allows the vet squad to fall back and still charge. Works nicely when coupled with the VV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanewatts Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Also gives him the teleport homer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Was that Andrew Gonyo? If yes he won NOVA this year . What does the biker do for vet squads besides soak wounds? Others have already mentioned, but it allows you to fall back and charge in the same turn. You also gain the teleport homer, which lets you do some really fun, sometimes situational redeployment shenanigans midgame as long as its still in play and you still have a Terminator in each squad. Bike doesn't need to be alive to do it, either. As far as the bike itself goes, it's essentially a two wound storm bolter/chainsword Veteran at a 9 point premium. So basically, at 9 points over that sb/cs Vet, you get an extra wound on the squad, the ability to fall back and charge, and a teleport homer. I'd love to hear him talk about the list a bit to see what worked and what didn't. I think the efficacy of that added bike probably depends a lot on how effective you are with playing around that homer, which means those 9 points seem pretty expensive on average if you don't find lots of uses for it. I think we'll likely see a point drop for bikes in general in CA, so if that's the case, bikes in Vet squads may be more common... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I can't wait until CA comes out so I see how many points I have to play with... really would like the terminator in my vet squads. My Fortis Kill Team is pretty much sorted now . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 I can't wait until CA comes out so I see how many points I have to play with... really would like the terminator in my vet squads. My Fortis Kill Team is pretty much sorted now . Yeah, any shift to Primaris costs that affect my Fortis plans will just encourage me to maybe pull the trigger on adding that Reiver without cringing at the slight premium. But major shifts to weapon costs, delivery options (like the Corvus coming back into the discussion), and just straight up model costs will absolutely spur me into planning out a whole bunch of Vet squads. I just hate the storm bolter/chainsword meta for 'em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qui-Gon Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Point to be made Lemondish, you only have to run storm bolters if you want to. I get a LOT of work done with my 5 man frag cannon teams. They aggregate more damage than the storm bolters over the course of the game. Storm bolters drop and die. Frag cannons are annoyingly difficult to remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Because my other two detachments are Blood Angels (two Smash Captains) and Custodes I don't need to make my Deathwatch more punchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I don't get why first guy didn't add even a single blackshield. Were they detrimental somehow for him or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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