Panzer Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Reroll hits isn't all that exciting on a dedicated melee unit where everyone only has a single attack base... *when it's unlikely for them to make the charge in the first place. FTFY :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Not shocked we have seen the same pattern with IW this is a low effort release. Management most likely denied any requests for a larger rewrite and push that off to a magical day known as "Some Day" and re-tasked the manpower to another project. It still shocks me how even game store owners use the excuse "well it was not selling", and most of us gamers reply, "You never gave us a good reason to buy it as it functioned poorly in my games". I doubt writing rules that are actually useful would require any more ressources than writing crap rules. It's not the ressources, manpower or some decision from the higher ups at fault here ... it's just the incapability of the team that got tasked with writing the rules this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balordazul Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I'm curious do you really believe that the team just is very much at fault on this and that would mean they have a lot more control with little oversight. Personally in my job when I'm given a project or a re-write for a plan I'm expected to evaluate faults and shortcoming of the current model, review the market's expectations and provide a new model that has taken these into account to generate a positive user experience. If I did not achieve those goals I would not be looked favorably by management and likely be relegated to minor tasks until they pushed me into a dead end location or I redeemed myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I firmly believe the rules team's remit is to write rules for open & narrative play, not for matched play...meaning they don't worry so much about things like the Warp Time restriction or soup-CP-batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I'm curious do you really believe that the team just is very much at fault on this and that would mean they have a lot more control with little oversight. Personally in my job when I'm given a project or a re-write for a plan I'm expected to evaluate faults and shortcoming of the current model, review the market's expectations and provide a new model that has taken these into account to generate a positive user experience. If I did not achieve those goals I would not be looked favorably by management and likely be relegated to minor tasks until they pushed me into a dead end location or I redeemed myself. Yeah I really do believe that. As for the oversight ... if it's Cruddace who looks over things I'm not surprised at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Brotherhood Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I firmly believe the rules team's remit is to write rules for open & narrative play, not for matched play...meaning they don't worry so much about things like the Warp Time restriction or soup-CP-batteries. This is absolutely correct. I've been listening to voxcast more recently, particularly the episode with Robin Cruddace and basically when it comes down to it the rules team write rules that are for narrative/thematic/fluff/open play/lolz and not for the competitive side of the game at all. So from that stand point yes these rules are super thematic and do indeed fit Night Lords perfectly narratively, it's just that the rules themselves are weak mechanically. I myself would have much preferred to see something akin to +1 attack on the charge or even +2" to charge results or something like that, something more tangible. I'm kind of getting sick of re-roll buffs as it's just making dice rolls of failure and success very meaningless now and not the cliff hanger feel that they used to give (anything but a one...!). Part of me thinks maybe GW should have communicated what Vigilius Ablaze and this expansion is about more effectively. They really should have stressed that this is a narrative expansion a lot more, but as it is they are doing faction focus articles and using language as if we should be really pumped for these rules in matched play when the whole book is supposed to be about a narrative and theme. This statement below is definitely aimed at matched play players and a matched play mindset because it sure as hell isn't a thematic or fluffy Night Lords combination, it's just looking to purely stack LD debuffs to the max a.k.a competitive mindset. "That’s -6 to enemy Leadership, even before you factor in other Leadership-reducing allies like Be’lakor, the Noxious Blightbringer, or butcher cannon-armed Contemptor Dreadnoughts…" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 This statement below is definitely aimed at matched play players and a matched play mindset because it sure as hell isn't a thematic or fluffy Night Lords combination, it's just looking to purely stack LD debuffs to the max a.k.a competitive mindset. "That’s -6 to enemy Leadership, even before you factor in other Leadership-reducing allies like Be’lakor, the Noxious Blightbringer, or butcher cannon-armed Contemptor Dreadnoughts…" They unfortunately forgot though that they did everything to prevent LD debuffs to be meaningfull by making MSU and moral immune hordes a thing again. They could give my -30 to enemy Leadership for free and stackable and it wouldn't make Night Lords any better lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Brotherhood Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 This statement below is definitely aimed at matched play players and a matched play mindset because it sure as hell isn't a thematic or fluffy Night Lords combination, it's just looking to purely stack LD debuffs to the max a.k.a competitive mindset. "That’s -6 to enemy Leadership, even before you factor in other Leadership-reducing allies like Be’lakor, the Noxious Blightbringer, or butcher cannon-armed Contemptor Dreadnoughts…" They unfortunately forgot though that they did everything to prevent LD debuffs to be meaningfull by making MSU and moral immune hordes a thing again. They could give my -30 to enemy Leadership for free and stackable and it wouldn't make Night Lords any better lol Yep it's very sad to put a lot of effort into trying to make the legion trait work for you, especially if you focus fire / attack something and then in the morale phase all of your effort is denied for 2CP Insane bravery. Or in some cases just not caring at all - orks, Tyranids, Commissars and guard etc. At least the claws relic and midnight clad strategem are good, but apart from that we've got nothing special going on and I still play out of love for the legion rather than the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 It is very disappointing because the models are absolutely amazing. But it really does feel like they have done the laziest thing possible and aren't even going to bother with fixing the issues. The fact they don't design for competitive/matched is obvious, but they could at least give some care to that since matched play is, I'd wager, the most commonly played variant of 40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I'm not experienced with these specialist detachments. I know the relic and warlord trait are not revealed, but is it likely the Host Raptoral comes with more stratagems? I have to admit that as a returning player with a long absence Warp Talons....still seem pointless. Also the article mentions buffing them with Daemonkin stuff but....how do you get anything close enough to them that quickly to help out if you deep strike the Raptors? That's an honest question, I'm still learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I'm not experienced with these specialist detachments. I know the relic and warlord trait are not revealed, but is it likely the Host Raptoral comes with more stratagems? I have to admit that as a returning player with a long absence Warp Talons....still seem pointless. Also the article mentions buffing them with Daemonkin stuff but....how do you get anything close enough to them that quickly to help out if you deep strike the Raptors? That's an honest question, I'm still learning. Clearly they don't intend for you to deep strike them, I suppose... honestly, nobody is sure. GW's advice is usually dubious at best or just nonsensical at worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Irony: Renegades get unique traits that seem better than what the traitor legions get: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/20/20th-mar-vigilus-ablaze-previews-renegade-chapters-and-fallengw-homepage-post-3/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balordazul Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Really interesting thoughts and opinions guys thanks for the feedback and the interesting insight to the Voxcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Now I'm just pissed. They gave you a way to not need Cultists... IF you play Red Corsairs. Screw the Legions, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 The Renegade stuff is just insult to injury for Night Lords players right now as the stuff seems pretty useful in comparison lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scourged Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Irony: Renegades get unique traits that seem better than what the traitor legions get: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/20/20th-mar-vigilus-ablaze-previews-renegade-chapters-and-fallengw-homepage-post-3/ Yeah, kinda seems that way. Crimson Slaughter feels pretty darn good... Since it's the only way to regen CP we'll have without allies. And Red Corsairs found a clever way to incentivise taking csm over cultists. I guess that's the trade for not getting to use VotLW (assuming that restriction stays). But I'm happy with the Scourged rules so far. Fun and Tzeentchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyD4rkPassenger Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 The Renegade stuff is just insult to injury for Night Lords players right now as the stuff seems pretty useful in comparison lol Tell me about it. Kinda soured my excitement, but I guess it's incentive to finally move forward on a Crimson Slaughter project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 I'm not going to lie, this almost removes any excitement I had for all the new models. It's insulting and a slap in the face to Traitor Legions players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlover Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 No, it's Games Workshop putting more effort into the brand new project than into updating old stuff. I get that it's annoying, but let's not get dragged into hyperbolic declarations of negativity. Dragonlover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Expected. We saw early on that they didn't plan on fixing or improving any existing bad rules, just tacking on new additional rules. That was clear from the the shadowspear leaks. So then the choices are 'make the new rules just as useless as the old rules' or 'make the new rules blatantly better than the existing stuff'. I think we can all agree that the decision not to meaningfully rewrite the rules for existing units like chaos marines and possessed and existing faction/subfaction rules like the legion traits was a bad and terrible choice, but once that choice was made, stupid as it is, I'm personally glad they let the new stuff be better instead of holding it back just to keep it in line with the existing stuff. It does kind of highlight, however, that even the devs can see the existing rules aren't very good. So yeah, the decision not to revise them in any meaningful way is super frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearson73 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 The new renegade stuff seems good, as the owner of a Slaanesh warband, I'm keen to see more of what the Flawless Host are getting, plus their role on Vigilus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreaterChickenofTzeentch Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 As a note, all of the new reroll hit abilities we've seen so far are the better variety that just says "reroll" not "reroll failed." So even succeses that are converted to failures via modifiers can be rerolled with these like AdMech can do with Cawl. Quite helpful. Not going to change the world, but helpful against modifiers or when fishing for certain values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furnace Lord Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Come what may, I am still Black Legion to the core. I am dissapointed by some things but it does nothing to shake my conviction. Death to the False Emperor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayniac Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 New Dark Apostle was spotted, with two henchmen: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearson73 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Big fan of those two acolytes/slaves, but not liking the Apostle so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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