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After years of waiting...


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#451
Wayniac

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Liking the sound of those Rotor Cannons *tries not to get hopes up*

Do we know if there are two in the kit?

Don't know yet, the sprue we've seen only has one but people have noticed it only has 3 bodies so are guessing there's another part we haven't seen.


- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#452
Midnightmare

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I am thinking either two auto/two rotor cannons or all rotor cannons now - it all depends on what is in the kit. I was always going to buy them as my next squad, with these new rules leaks (move and fire and T5) then I am sold

#453
sfPanzer

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I'll definitely go for all rotor. That's 32 shots or 64 via cacophony. Together with VotLW and one of the Dark Apoatle Prayers and maybe even some psychic buff they'll shred everything lol
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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#454
Sception

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Hrm. Havocs didnt need to move & fire heavies without penalty. And it sounds like they're possibly losing their special weapon options, though I suppose chosen can do that well enough. Don't much like the loss of ablative wounds on them, especially since if the rumors are true their points are probably going up.

On the other hand... interesting stuff, and if true would make them more distinct and specialized than just 'csms with more heavy weapons', and I like that.

The one thing I really want, and don't at all expect, is for *defilers* to get to move & fire heavies without penalty. That would be nice. Way too many of their points are wrapped up in their melee abilities for them to sit still, but as soon as they budge an inch their accuracy drops off the cliff it was already hovering on the edge of. And they really don't have enough firepower to justify burning a cp to nullify that penalty.

But as the model isnt changing, i dont expect the rules to, at least not this time around.

That rotor cannon does look pretty nasty. Even if it only comes one per box, it looks like it shouldn't be too hard to convert suitable stand ins from the new heavy bolters by giving them a rotary barrel, either stolen from other bits (spare heldrake hades cannons?) or press molded from the actual rotor cannon, much as some people used to convert autocannons from out old heavy bolters by adding a long barrel.

Edited by malisteen, 23 March 2019 - 12:33 PM.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#455
MaliGn

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Was that the noctileth crown's aura grows through the game so by turn 4 you are looking at like a 15" aura? So you aren't as penalised for moving away from it as you might be and with move and shoot havocs that's pretty cool.

#456
Sception

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Yeah, but it's a "wholly within" aura, and starting at only 6" that's just too small to justify the points, at least imo. Especially in formats with limited detachments, as already pointed out.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#457
Wayniac

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Havocs seem to be 14 points.

 

Honestly, even with the Lord Disco being 12 wounds, I think he has merit.  Just you have to play with a lot of threat saturation, which seems to be something that Chaos can do a lot of.  A lot of these things seem really good; certainly not as good as they could be, but not bad.  Like Sun Tzu says, If the enemy prepares to defend many places, then his forces will be few in number.

 

Cultists apparently lose legion traits and are capped at 30 models.


- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#458
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Can CSM squads take chain guns? And can they still take two heavies instead of two specials?
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#459
Wayniac

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Can CSM squads take chain guns? And can they still take two heavies instead of two specials?

Don't know yet, I think the answer is yes to both but I Haven't seen it confirmed.

 

I just pre-ordered Abaddon, one box of CSM, Vigilus Ablaze, the datacards and the dice.


Edited by Wayniac, 23 March 2019 - 01:17 PM.

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- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#460
Sception

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As somewhat feared, the lord executioner, in addition to being footbound, seems to lack an invulnerable save. As such he lacks both the speed to chase down heroes that don't want to be in melee with them and the dutability to survive a round of combat with heroes that do want to be in melee with them, so if you're looking for a dedicated duelist, lords and princes are still the go to.

And if you want something cheaper, we have other cheap, slow fighty heroes like the exalted champion, greater possessed, or dark apostle, all of which are at least similarly skilled duelists (the gp and spostle even have inv saves), but also have aura buffs so they dont rely on tagging enemy heroes to do their thing.

So i guess I don't like its model or its rules much. Again though, one dud out of a big pile of releases is still an admirable success rate, and my hobby money will be stretched pretty thin by everything else already. And maybe someone else will get him to do some work.

Edited by malisteen, 23 March 2019 - 01:57 PM.

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from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#461
Sception

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Csm power rating went down to 4. Terminator rating went down to 10. Didnt see any other changes to either unit entry yet. Csms might get the rotor cannon by having it added to the bade heavy weapon list? If so, chosen would also get it.

Shame there werent any similarly impressive new special or melee weapons, then.

Edited by malisteen, 23 March 2019 - 02:05 PM.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#462
Wayniac

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Overall my thoughts are that while we can be salty over the stuff not being what we hoped, a lot of it has merit still if we consider the bigger picture.  We need to think of these parts of our army as modules/packages that we build independently and then combine together. I don't think we have the luxury, or should have the luxury, of trying to build an army around one single gimmick that we try to exploit.

 

Threat Saturation is going to be our big thing.  So the Lord Discordant has 12 wounds.  Don't make him the key model in your army.  If the enemy shoots at him, the possessed in rhinos will be free to advance up.  The havocs with rotor cannons will be putting out 32 shots (64 with Endless) shredding his army.  Like Sun Tzu says:

 

If the enemy prepares to defend many places, then his forces will be few in number.

 

Therefore, if the enemy prepares to defend the front, the back will be weak. If he prepares to defend the back, the front will be weak. If he prepares to defend the left, the right will be weak. If he prepares to defend the right, the left will be weak. If he prepares to defend everywhere, everywhere will be weak.

 


Edited by Wayniac, 23 March 2019 - 02:23 PM.

- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#463
Prot

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Reviews are coming in...

 

Lord Disco confirmed 12 wounds. 

 

Rotor Cannon is Heavy 8 S5 AP -1 D1, 20 or 25 points. 

 

Havocs can move and fire without penalty and might have T5 from what I'm hearing, only come in units of 5.  A unit of 5 with 4x of the rotor cannons seems terrifying.

 

Cultists lost legion traits, still have VOTLW.

 

Nocilith Crown is a Fort with T8 and 14 wounds. All psykers within 6" suffers perils on any doubles, Chaos not affected. All Chaos units wholly within 6" has a 5+ invol (note it does not say enemy, so when fighting other chaos armies their units are not affected by the first but benefit from the latter). The range of the aura is increased by 3" per turn. 100 points.

 

 Not worth that IMHO as it takes up a detachment choice when you're doing the 3 detachment limit (which I've only ever seen people use)

 

I just saw these data cards myself...Lord Discordant for more info is:

 

M 12 9 6

Additional Attacks 5 4 3

 

He is unfortunately 12 wounds... full statline: 2+, 2+, S4, T6, W12, A4, LD9, SV2+ (Good save at least)

Autocannons, or  Baleflamer  8" auto hit, Pistol, Impaler Chainglaive S+2, AP-2, D2. (if you charge S changest to x2).

Mechatendris (2 bonus attacks like Venomcrawler).

 

The Helstalker is what Lord Discordant rides and he has a Magma Cutter (melta pistol), limbs (melee - additional attacks shown in damage profile)

Techno Virus Injector, melee S+4, AP-4, D3. (single attack, better vs vehicles for Mortal wounds... but just 1 attack)

 

- edit- of course his aura...i Subtract 1 to hit for all enemy vehicles within 6" of him (poorly worded). Add 1 to hit for friendly vehicles if within 6" if he kills a vehicles in the fight phase he can do a repair within 3" to a Daemon engine OR damage a vehicle within 12" on a 2+ do D3 Mortals..

 

Seems mandatory for the frustrations I've been experiencing with Venom Crawlers! 

 

- New Dark Apostle is 100 Points. Comes with one prayer (Dark Zealotry - reroll aura that requires a 'to be heard' roll), and one additional prayer from Prayers to the Dark Gods. He can 'cast' one Prayer at the start of each Battle Round. ( requires a 3+ to be heard). 

 

5 points each for the Dark Disciples adding +1 to the shout roll (collectively).  Bringing your total to 110 points.

 

(Don't forget on the pre orders we know another Prayer is the -1 to hit prayer).


Edited by Prot, 23 March 2019 - 02:36 PM.

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#464
Sception

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Im adjusting to the lord discordant. Based on his aura, i had been excited for him to be a mobile buffing/support platform for our daemon engines, hopefully lifting some of our borderline units like defilers into the good range. Unfortunately, that's not so much what he is, having too many wounds to be untargetabke as a character, and being too much of a personal threat to distract attention away ftom him with target saturation.

That said, he /is/ quite a threat on his own, more so than I was expecting. I wanted to run one of him in a heavy support detachment with a bunch of other daemon engines, but maybe it would be better to run an hq detachment with several of just him? Perhaps converting some existing daemon engines into stand ins by mounting converted warpsmiths on their backs?

In that case the aura might be more useful for its debuffing than its buffing properties.

Edited by malisteen, 23 March 2019 - 02:26 PM.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#465
Wayniac

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Im adjusting to the lord discordant. Based on his aura, i had been excited for him to be a mobile buffing/support platform for our daemon engines, hopefully lifting some of our borderline units like defilers into the good range. Unfortunately, that's not so much what he is, having too many wounds to be untargetabke as a character, and being too much of a personal threat to distract attention away ftom him with target saturation.

That said, he /is/ quite a threat on his own, more so than I was expecting. I wanted to run one of him in a heavy support detachment with a bunch of other daemon engines, but maybe it would be better to run an hq detachment with several of just him? Perhaps converting some existing daemon engines into stand ins by mounting converted warpsmiths on their backs?

In that case the aura might be more useful for its debuffing than its buffing properties.

My current experiment is to take him with a pair of Venomcrawlers.  He seems to synergize well with them, and since he's a beast in melee the three of them can advance up shooting with +1, and attack things in melee.

 

But he needs to be only part of the package, not the entire package.


- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#466
Mallios

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Im adjusting to the lord discordant. Based on his aura, i had been excited for him to be a mobile buffing/support platform for our daemon engines, hopefully lifting some of our borderline units like defilers into the good range. Unfortunately, that's not so much what he is, having too many wounds to be untargetabke as a character, and being too much of a personal threat to distract attention away ftom him with target saturation.

That said, he /is/ quite a threat on his own, more so than I was expecting. I wanted to run one of him in a heavy support detachment with a bunch of other daemon engines, but maybe it would be better to run an hq detachment with several of just him? Perhaps converting some existing daemon engines into stand ins by mounting converted warpsmiths on their backs?

In that case the aura might be more useful for its debuffing than its buffing properties.

My current experiment is to take him with a pair of Venomcrawlers. He seems to synergize well with them, and since he's a beast in melee the three of them can advance up shooting with +1, and attack things in melee.

But he needs to be only part of the package, not the entire package.

Maybe add a Defiler or Maulerfiend, and a couple Greater Possessed. That will buff the Venomcrawlers' shooting, and if your opponent focuses on your Lord Discordant, you have a Str-buffed melee engine to shove down his/her throat.

#467
Sception

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That's how i wanted to field him, but given how threatening he is (especially if you give him the relic from his specialist formation), and how much less threatening all those other daemon engines become the moment he dies, it just feels like he'll get sniped off the table first turn every game if you try to run him that way, leaving you with a bunch sunk into daemon engines that aren't all that amazing without him.


The host raptorial warlord trait is a boist to charge ranges. For once, that's a boist that actally does help warp talons. Between +2 to charge from the field commander and a cp reroll, maybe they could actually be almost halfway functional? Hrm.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#468
Cleanse And Purify

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Red Corsairs get a 3 CP strategem that is Tide of Traitors, but for CSM squads and has no limits on usage. Their warlord trait is a free relic (cuz we be pirates! yaaaar m8y) and +1 attack when they kill an enemy character.

The strong are strongest alone indeed.

Chaos Lords and chosen can now take thunder hammers (blackstone evilhammer is now redundant except for the awesome model).

Abaddon remains same point value despite his buffs (Drachnyen is now 3 dmg flat too).

Havocs remain the same point cost.

Apparently so are Obliterators, but I am willing to bet thats a typo. But, on the off chance it isn't...

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#469
Sception

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Im on record thinking the black legion trait is pretty bad (not the worst legion trait, but towards the bottom), but not being to bitter about it because the strat's ok and abby's a beast.

Vigilus doesnt help the trait, and doesnt give us troop chosen vack, but dear goodness some of those new stats, traits, & relics! Sadly that section didnt make it into the codex update, but yeah, some nice new toys for my boys in black. I really like the new spineshiver blade. Big upgrade to my DV sword lord. Maybe its time to upgrade him to jump lord with some possessed wings like I've been thinking about.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#470
Midnightmare

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What is the deal with the new spineshiver blade?

Does Drach’nyen still get D6 attacks?

Can a Havoc Champ take the fancy combi bolter?

Things in need to know pretty please :D

#471
Sception

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Drach is still +d6 attacks, in addition to normal attacks made with either drach or the talon, which is more of a real decision now, since drach's damage is now a flat three, while the ralon is still d3.

Spineshiver's like a mini drachnyen. Replaces power sword, small strength boost, good ap, d6 extra attacks. Only one damage, but still.

Iirc only heroes can take relics? Is that wrong? Considering that the champ is now that squad's only ablative wound, it probably wouldnt be a great call even it it were possible.

Edited by malisteen, 23 March 2019 - 03:39 PM.

from Shame and Shadow recast, in Black and Gold reborn.


#472
Midnightmare

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Ah you are right on the Champion Mal, I was getting too over excited there and he is the only ablative wound :D :D

I am glad on the Spineshiver - it is like the Daemon Weapons of old, which despite my penchant for rolling 1’s in the exact wrong time, I find them fun.

Liking Abaddon more and more - I used him a lot and found him to be pretty good anyway in most situations, so for a modest increase in points(?) the statline, buffs and weapons see worthwhile *clicks pre-order*

#473
Excessus

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Only characters can take artifacts, and champions aren't.


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#474
Midnightmare

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Yeah man, my bad! The excitement is too much.....!

#475
Cleanse And Purify

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Abaddon has received no points increase, despite the buffs.
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We are the only source of goodness, severe and drastic.

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We are agonizingly alone.





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