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Why is this a bad idea?


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#1
Beams

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So, I see a lot of Grey Knight fixes that try really hard, and are super complicated.

To me, it seems like the easiest way to make them great is to errata their anti-demon rule where they reroll wounds/hits vs demons to they ignore Invuln saves with any nemesis force weapon.

This would see them improve vs all factions, and get a significant buff, without overstepping on any other marine factions.

What am I missing/why is this a bad idea?

#2
sfPanzer

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Because enemy invul saves aren't the problem so ignoring them wouldn't fix anything.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#3
Danarc

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Exactly. It would be nice, but no more than nice. 


Edited by Danarc, 08 November 2018 - 02:49 PM.


#4
Beams

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Because enemy invul saves aren't the problem so ignoring them wouldn't fix anything.

I mean, it would give grey knights a role past "These guys are Marines +1 like Deathwatch/Custodes"

And if your worried about hordes, well, thats always been elite models weakness, but strikes with falchions do a pretty decent job against them.

And it would make them better against demons, without making them overcosted against everything else.

Right now, Grey Knights suffer from being expensive and all rounders, but they cost exactly where they should vs tactical Marines (+2 for stormbolter, +4 for power weapon, +2 pts for smite)

But make them ignore invulns and suddenly a squad of strikes posses a threat vs that Smash captain with a 3++. Or our demonhammers can actually hurt greater demons, since we're not worrying about a 3++ with a command reroll to ignore it.

The biggest downside would be our grandmaster dreadknight going from amazing but could hungry, to prolly brokenly good.


For context, my army is:
Grandmaster Dreadknight with Psilencer, Incinerator, Sword and First to fray
Chaplain with Fury of Deimos

10x Falchions Strikes
10x Falchions Strikes
5 Falchions Strikes

Apocethery
Paladin ancient with Cryslyx

10x Inceptors with Falchions, justicar with hammer
10x Inceptors with Falchions, justicar with hammer
10x Inceptors with Falchions, justicar with hammer

Strikes tend to get Gate of Infinity, Grandmaster is sanctuary.

Start at least the Inceptors and Dreadknight on the board, out of cover. Gate/shunt up, kill screens (second row if there's two rows) with Stormbolters, charge if possible.

Take tanks with Dreadknight, since he's super tanky for a round or two, and deals insane damage.

It's not the strongest list in the game, but it does well for me.

Edited by Beams, 08 November 2018 - 03:35 PM.


#5
Capt. Mytre

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It's obvious that you don't understand what is actually wrong with GK. Tell me, how often do you find yourself wishing your opponent didn't have an invuln save in combat? I've never had that issue. If you're in combat, you're probably already winning (unless it's a hoard). No, I find myself struggling with a lot of other issues. How would it fix dealing with armour/high toughness from range? How would if help getting into combat? How would it claw back the little ground we had and then lost to successive nerfs.

 

The rule idea itself isn't bad, but alone it's useless. It's a rule I've been suggesting forever about GK, that their rules shouldn't be demon specific, but have rules that work well against them as well as against other enemies. This is what Deathwatch got, and is far more interesting to play with and against.

 

Grey Knights being costed "correctly" is pure nonsense - GK are the worst codex for a reason, you can't be costed correctly while also being too expensive for what they bring. Remember, regular marines are considered to be overcosted, which would equally apply to us. Secondly, GK troops are all rounders, but no one wants all rounders. If a strike squad never gets into melee combat, you've essentially wasted points on them. If they never get to cast any powers, again, you've wasted points.

 

In a game all about being efficient with points, GK are the most inefficient. Point reductions are not the solution, as it results in GK becoming less elite and doesn't actually address the lack of army feel. Give them statline and rules boosts etc so that they are actually worth the points costs they are as well as making them feel like the most elite warriors in the galaxy.


Edited by Capt. Mytre, 08 November 2018 - 04:26 PM.

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#6
Ninjoe42

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Probably cause we dont tend to encounter invuln saves too often. No one takes basic swords, and most things with an invuln of 5++ have a basic armor save of 3+ or better. Our shooting is almost completely AP0 as well.

Would it help against demons? Of course! Probably a bit TOO much since we already have the 3 damage smite and rerolls wounds. With that rule most demons would actually just have no save at all.

Theres been lots of talk about how to fix grey knights, and I dont know theres any single good answer. But talk is Chapter Approved is gonna do something with them, most likely a point drop and alignment with Thousand Sons smite rules (d3 on a 10+)

Personally, I say let us cast multiple of the same psychic power per turn, or put psychic onslaught and psybolt ammo to 1CP. Thats aaaall I need lol. If I can do 20+ heavy bolter shots every turn I'll be happy

#7
Waking Dreamer

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Theres been lots of talk about how to fix grey knights, and I dont know theres any single good answer. But talk is Chapter Approved is gonna do something with them, most likely a point drop and alignment with Thousand Sons smite rules (d3 on a 10+)

Personally, I say let us cast multiple of the same psychic power per turn, or put psychic onslaught and psybolt ammo to 1CP. Thats aaaall I need lol. If I can do 20+ heavy bolter shots every turn I'll be happy

 

 

^ Yeah, that's like the most basic of what there is to change, and I agree I would be pleasantly surprised if that were to happen...mainly because based on GWs recent history with GK improvements...well, you know.

 

 

Repeated Sanctic powers per phase (with increasing difficulty) would be amazing for me, possible variations for psychic improvements would be access to the SM Librarius instead, which is more likely due to precedence. But personally I dont want my GK army to be more like other SMs, I want them to be better GKs (and Sanctic overall is already a stronger psychic disciple than Librarius imo). Maybe improvements with GKs Smite lite, and the variants from Purifiers / Stern / relic banner too (say add 3" to their current ranges). We pay extra for psychic from the get-go...so improve that to allows to compete with other armies right? 



#8
Beams

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I said GK were costed correctly in accordance to tactical Marines, not that they were costed right.

I also find I wish I wasn't hitting invulns a lot. I play against Nids regularly, and the big gribblies tend to have a 4++ and sometimes a feel no pain to boot. Genestealers also have 5++, and a save of a 5+, so it would help against them. As right now, strikes but especially paladins, are way too easy to get overwhelmed by them.

Deldar, Eldar and Quins also have quite a few invulns, especially in combat.

Really, the only thing that doesn't is Marines. Even guard has decent amounts of invulns in combat (Bullgryns, CC, Comissar, Crusaders)

I also suggested you swap the remove the reroll to wounds if you remove invuln saves.

The problems I see with grey knights are:
1- They are expensive with low durability
2- they struggle to get in combat, especially on tables without sufficient terrain, they also have issues stemijg from the fact that deepstrike and charge isn't a positive play experience for the opponent, and GW is attempting to reign that in.
And Most importantly 3- once in combat, a combination of 3+ to hit, Str 4 and low number of attacks leads to difficulty actually killing large numbers of units on combat, but the d3 damage makes them good at killing elites without invulns or feel no pains.

Edited by Beams, 08 November 2018 - 06:56 PM.


#9
Corvus Fortis

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I mean, it would give grey knights a role past "These guys are Marines +1 like Deathwatch/Custodes"

 

 

We are already anti-demon psychic chapter and at all Marines +1 - same stats, just different weapons. So what?

 

And if your worried about hordes, well, thats always been elite models weakness, but strikes with falchions do a pretty decent job against them. 

 

 

 

 

When every model is equipped with a stormbolter, hordes are not the greatest concern. 

 

And it would make them better against demons, without making them overcosted against everything else.

 

 

The only unit, that ever gave me problem  because of Invuln is Tzeench DP with 3++. And 3++ is not the only factor - they are cheap, fast, has lots of psychic powers and -1 to-hit. I couldn't kill it with smites, because of denies, and couldn't deal with it in close combat. Even with custodes Invuln wasn't such a problem. How this would make us better against Imperial Knights? Imperial Guard? Eldar? Only 3++ and 4++ on hordes really decisive in current meta. It will make us better only against several models and in certain matchups. Against demons we don't really need it because 3 MW smites. And even then it won't help while they can simply return units for free.

 

But make them ignore invulns and suddenly a squad of strikes posses a threat vs that Smash captain with a 3++. Or our demonhammers can actually hurt greater demons, since we're not worrying about a 3++ with a command reroll to ignore it.

 

 

Ok, just as I said, now we can kill several types of units better. How this will add us staying power? How will it help us score objectives? How will it make playing GK more fun? 

 

 

The biggest downside would be our grandmaster dreadknight going from amazing but could hungry, to prolly brokenly good.

 

 

He won't. He is not even good now. He was at the start of edition, when everyone were still getting to it and it could use Heed in reserves. Throw 10 guardsmen at him to keep busy for 2 turns and you are fine. 

 

For context, my army is:
Grandmaster Dreadknight with Psilencer, Incinerator, Sword and First to fray
Chaplain with Fury of Deimos

10x Falchions Strikes
10x Falchions Strikes
5 Falchions Strikes

Apocethery
Paladin ancient with Cryslyx

10x Inceptors with Falchions, justicar with hammer 
10x Inceptors with Falchions, justicar with hammer
10x Inceptors with Falchions, justicar with hammer

 

 

Your meta must be mild. if you manage to win with something like this. Btw, how you get Relic Hammer on Ancient if he can only take falchion? 

 

Take tanks with Dreadknight, since he's super tanky for a round or two, and deals insane damage.

 

 

 

 My opponents tend to ignore it, killing all other stuff, while he footslogs 2-3 turns to his destination.

 

 

 

In short, the rule can be cool, but it won't just fix GK in any way. 

 

Personally, I say let us cast multiple of the same psychic power per turn, or put psychic onslaught and psybolt ammo to 1CP. Thats aaaall I need lol. If I can do 20+ heavy bolter shots every turn I'll be happy 

 

 

IDK, why everyone wants this so much. Sanctic is not that good discipline to spam its powers. Everyone will just spam GoI/Sanctuary. Making some powers AoE, like Hammerhand, will do us more, but this is definitely not a fix. Personally, I never felt I'm in a bad situation, because I cannot cast a psychic power twice. But  I agree with psybolt - it have to be an army-wide rule, probably, like dakka-dakka. Also won't fix all problems, but we will at least have good anti-infantry dagame and could wound knights on 5+.

 

But, I believe, GK won't be any good in this edition unless their codex completely rewritten with the same effort DE/Orks were. Our main problem now is that not just book is bad, but the core rules forbids the way army should play. And by last FAQ GW only stated that there will be no compromises, denying Genstealer Cults their exceptions. The only I hope I have that GK become worthwhile allies after CA. 



#10
Beams

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Typo: apocethary with relic hammer, paladin ancient with normal banner.

How is your dreadknight getting tied up? He has a 12" flamer, a 12 shot gun, deepstrike and the ability to gate of Infinity. So even if by some grace of God they manage to get him in a position you don't want him in, you should either be able to kill the Guardsmen on their turn, or goi out.

I also wouldn't say my meta is easy; any win I have with grey Knights is a struggle, but Ive beaten a couple of the "oh no! It's the loyal 32 + (whatever)" lists, as well as Aeldar soup.

#11
sfPanzer

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Eh, I've seen GM Dreadknights getting tied up plenty. You won't kill horde units with your flamer and it only needs one model making the charge before other units can charge without overwatch. GoI can fail or get banned as well. Those things happen more than enough. It's a unit that would love to have the Fly keyword crunch-wise but that doesn't really fit the model nor fluff.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#12
Captain Coolpants

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Ignoring invulnerable save at would be cool. But that was a rule psycannons had a few editions ago, and was only really good against daemons. But was definitely considered too good even back then in the golden days.

Im with everyone else though. I never feel like i need to ignore invulnerable saves unless its a tank character (but that's the whole point of a tanky character so not an issue)

Its surviving, getting to combat effectively, and dealing with anything at range which we are now forced to do due to the new deepstrike restrictions.
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#13
Trevak Dal

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Maybe the nemesis force attacks should deal the d3 damage to a single model and any spill over goes to remaining models. That would help.
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#14
Capt. Mytre

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Maybe the nemesis force attacks should deal the d3 damage to a single model and any spill over goes to remaining models. That would help.

 

This is actually something I've been considering myself.

 

So one of the issues with GK (and SM in general) is the base 1 attack. I'd prefer to see SM increased to base 2, but GK have a unique potential solution. Instead of increasing their base attack, GK wouldn't deal damage with their close combat weapons, but deal D3 mortal wounds if the enemy fails to make their save.

 

Falchions would need to be nerfed to AP -1 at least (other nerfs could be D2 damage or even -1 strength) to compensate for potentially being able to dish out 6 wounds a turn per model, but would be the go to choice for hoard killing.



#15
Waking Dreamer

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IDK, why everyone wants this so much. Sanctic is not that good discipline to spam its powers. Everyone will just spam GoI/Sanctuary. Making some powers AoE, like Hammerhand, will do us more, but this is definitely not a fix. 

 

 

 

It would be rock solid for my GK army list actually.

 

Spamming GoI/Sanctuary gives my standard GK army:  

- a GMDK on a 2+/2++

- a GMDK on a 2+/3++

- and Draigo 2+/3++

- right where and when they need to be creating threat saturation, and devoted firepower to bring down.

 

Having my 2 Ven.Dreads shooting 4 lascannons and 8 autocannon shots on 2s, at anything within a 48" bubble (no line-of-sight required), ignoring all cover bonuses EVERY turn - while keeping completely out of sight from enemy fire is pretty solid. Much better at justifying the extra points for his psyker tax, and is the main reason why mono-GKs are just keeping it to one Ven.Dread per army (most worthwhile only when they have Astral Aim cast) currently. They would become even more worthwhile (and stay uniquely GKs) if CA brings their cost down a little more.

 

Hammerhand also starts off cheap and multiple units can usually get that off in one turn as well. 

 

So, "spamming" the Sanctic Discipline improves the GKs:

- Mobility

- Durability

- Long-range anti-tank

- Combat against high-toughness targets

 

It would be a solid start at taking GKs to the next level.


Edited by Waking Dreamer, 10 November 2018 - 03:07 AM.


#16
sfPanzer

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IDK, why everyone wants this so much. Sanctic is not that good discipline to spam its powers. Everyone will just spam GoI/Sanctuary. Making some powers AoE, like Hammerhand, will do us more, but this is definitely not a fix. 

 

 

 

It would be rock solid for my GK army list actually.

 

Spamming GoI/Sanctuary gives my standard GK army:  

- a GMDK on a 2+/2++

- a GMDK on a 2+/3++

- and Draigo 2+/3++

- right where and when they need to be creating threat saturation, and devoted firepower to bring down.

 

Having my 2 Ven.Dreads shooting 4 lascannons and 8 autocannon shots on 2s, at anything within a 48" bubble (no line-of-sight required), ignoring all cover bonuses EVERY turn - while keeping completely out of sight from enemy fire is pretty solid. Much better at justifying the extra points for his psyker tax, and is the main reason why mono-GKs are just keeping it to one Ven.Dread per army (most worthwhile only when they have Astral Aim cast) currently. They would become even more worthwhile (and stay uniquely GKs) if CA brings their cost down a little more.

 

Hammerhand also starts off cheap and multiple units can usually get that off in one turn as well. 

 

So, "spamming" the Sanctic Discipline improves the GKs:

- Mobility

- Durability

- Long-range anti-tank

- Combat against high-toughness targets

 

It would be a solid start at taking GKs to the next level.

 

 

 

 

IDK, why everyone wants this so much. Sanctic is not that good discipline to spam its powers. Everyone will just spam GoI/Sanctuary. Making some powers AoE, like Hammerhand, will do us more, but this is definitely not a fix. 

 

 

 

It would be rock solid for my GK army list actually.

 

Spamming GoI/Sanctuary gives my standard GK army:  

- a GMDK on a 2+/2++

- a GMDK on a 2+/3++

- and Draigo 2+/3++

- right where and when they need to be creating threat saturation, and devoted firepower to bring down.

 

Having my 2 Ven.Dreads shooting 4 lascannons and 8 autocannon shots on 2s, at anything within a 48" bubble (no line-of-sight required), ignoring all cover bonuses EVERY turn - while keeping completely out of sight from enemy fire is pretty solid. Much better at justifying the extra points for his psyker tax, and is the main reason why mono-GKs are just keeping it to one Ven.Dread per army (most worthwhile only when they have Astral Aim cast) currently. They would become even more worthwhile (and stay uniquely GKs) if CA brings their cost down a little more.

 

Hammerhand also starts off cheap and multiple units can usually get that off in one turn as well. 

 

So, "spamming" the Sanctic Discipline improves the GKs:

- Mobility

- Durability

- Long-range anti-tank

- Combat against high-toughness targets

 

It would be a solid start at taking GKs to the next level.

 

 

 

Heh. Almost as if they were an army designed with a focus on psychics. teehee.gif


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#17
Icosiel

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Maybe the nemesis force attacks should deal the d3 damage to a single model and any spill over goes to remaining models. That would help.

 

I was just thinking that in the game I played last night! Wouldn't that make sense? It'd be like a melee smite. Man, that would be rad. I can't tell you the number of times my Nemesis weapons dealing 1d3 doesn't matter because I'm smacking down 1 wound models. We should really have something that makes "Nemesis" weapons better over basic Force weapons.



#18
sfPanzer

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It would basically just be how damage allocation works in Age of Sigmar. I'd be fine with that for specific weapons in melee tbh but not as general rule or Thunderhammers will become the best weapon even against hordes lol


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#19
Corvus Fortis

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Just give bonus attack to infantry. It is that simple and fix lots of close combat problems with GK and automatically nerf falchions without further adjustments.



#20
sfPanzer

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The biggest close combat issue Grey Knights have tho is getting into close combat before getting shot to bits. More damage output won't change that. Marines are simply not durable enough for their points. Primaris Marines are getting there but even they are a bit too expensive ... not to mention that there aren't any Grey Knight Primaris so far anyway.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#21
Corvus Fortis

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The biggest close combat issue Grey Knights have tho is getting into close combat before getting shot to bits.

 

 

I'd argue. Once I tabled tau only killing 1 drone in close combat - everything else was killed by smites and ranged firepower. GK right now is about close range firepower. From the other hand, once Intercessor squad killed my strike squad, because sheer number of attacks. They forced enough saves (a bit lucky though) while my strikes missed/didn't wound while striking first. Now, looking back at most previous games, I see, that most kills forced by heroes in close combat, strombolters and vehicle weapons. 

 

It is true, however, that we lack viable transportation. In the first months of edition, stormraven and deepstrike was all that I needed. Because of set up first=go first, I always knew when I will get my alpha-strike. Now, GW cut all this bit by bit, destroying all our strenghts. Stormravens and Land Raiders have to become viable again.



#22
TheGoldenThrone

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IDK, why everyone wants this so much. Sanctic is not that good discipline to spam its powers. Everyone will just spam GoI/Sanctuary. Making some powers AoE, like Hammerhand, will do us more, but this is definitely not a fix. 

 

 

 

It would be rock solid for my GK army list actually.

 

Spamming GoI/Sanctuary gives my standard GK army:  

- a GMDK on a 2+/2++

- a GMDK on a 2+/3++

- and Draigo 2+/3++

- right where and when they need to be creating threat saturation, and devoted firepower to bring down.

 

Having my 2 Ven.Dreads shooting 4 lascannons and 8 autocannon shots on 2s, at anything within a 48" bubble (no line-of-sight required), ignoring all cover bonuses EVERY turn - while keeping completely out of sight from enemy fire is pretty solid. Much better at justifying the extra points for his psyker tax, and is the main reason why mono-GKs are just keeping it to one Ven.Dread per army (most worthwhile only when they have Astral Aim cast) currently. They would become even more worthwhile (and stay uniquely GKs) if CA brings their cost down a little more.

 

Hammerhand also starts off cheap and multiple units can usually get that off in one turn as well. 

 

So, "spamming" the Sanctic Discipline improves the GKs:

- Mobility

- Durability

- Long-range anti-tank

- Combat against high-toughness targets

 

It would be a solid start at taking GKs to the next level.

 

Allow us to cast Sanctic powers multiple times at increasing difficulty -- this one simple change does the most work in helping our current situation. I agree with WD -- this addresses a lot of our problems all by itself. And it could be implemented without any other changes to the game or accidental impact to other armies. Interestingly, this is how the GK work in Narrative Play (and without increasing difficulty) already. 

 

I know this doesn't address the original post suggestion about Nemesis weapons ignoring invulnerable saves. I think the suggested change would be very cool and fluffy, but not enough to make much of a dent in our situation. It would help a little, and I wouldn't turn it down if they gave it to us, but we need more.

 

The CA 2018 long ago went to the printers, but it would be nice to see some (not all) of the following grab bag that would help us without a rewrite to the Codex:

- GK ignore the "Rule of One" in the Psychic Phase

- GK Librarians get full Smite

- GK get d3 Smite on 10+

- Decrease CP for Psychic Onslaught to 1

- Decrease CP for Psybolt Ammunition to 1

- Decrease CP for Heed the Prognosticars to 1 (and specifically clarify that it can be used in conjunction with Sanctuary)

- Add a Strategem (or modify the Teleportarium Strategem) to enable GK to either (1) teleport to 6" rather than 9" away from enemy models. Alternatively, it could allow us to move after teleporting

- Make Psilencer and Psycannon weapons Assault

- Increase number of Attacks by +1 for Purifiers and possibly even Strikes, Interceptors, Terminators and Paladins. Alternatively, Nemesis weapons cause spillover damage or perhaps MW on a 6+ Wound roll or something

 

Of all of these, eliminating the Rule of One for GK does the most work for us.


  • Waking Dreamer likes this

The Throne abides.


#23
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

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The biggest close combat issue Grey Knights have tho is getting into close combat before getting shot to bits.

 

 

I'd argue. Once I tabled tau only killing 1 drone in close combat - everything else was killed by smites and ranged firepower. GK right now is about close range firepower. From the other hand, once Intercessor squad killed my strike squad, because sheer number of attacks. They forced enough saves (a bit lucky though) while my strikes missed/didn't wound while striking first. Now, looking back at most previous games, I see, that most kills forced by heroes in close combat, strombolters and vehicle weapons. 

 

It is true, however, that we lack viable transportation. In the first months of edition, stormraven and deepstrike was all that I needed. Because of set up first=go first, I always knew when I will get my alpha-strike. Now, GW cut all this bit by bit, destroying all our strenghts. Stormravens and Land Raiders have to become viable again.

 

 

Notice how I wrote CLOSE COMBAT issue, not general issue.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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