b1soul Posted November 10, 2018 Author Share Posted November 10, 2018 "First great mistakes" of the Old Ones? Tell me more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykes Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 "First Great Mistake" was at least a theory I remember bandied about at least the local community around the time of the 3E Necron codex. The Old Ones had seeded the galaxy with life and ruled over the first few steps in their development, and after the War in Heaven, one of those weakened ones that fled 'checked in'. With the Eldar, Orks, and humans already well along their own tracts of evolutionary progression, it found that the eldar were already too established and the Orks were too numerous and resistant to change, but humanity became the zygot of a potential plan. Unfortunately, it arrived after the events that would become the myth of creation, the first murder, the destruction of the world via an apocalypse, and a host of other early unnumered biblical events linked to Chaos. Despite this, the Old One decided that it could intervene and reshape human destiny with its own plans in mind. The Old One had grasped that mankind had the potential to become the 'pivot' race that would be singularly important in the galaxy. It was a war in the making, with Chaos having exerted its early influences the Old One tried to rectify it by forcing the next step in the evolution of the ideal human race. In that 4th-6th millenium BC, the Emperor was created/altered to shepherd and champion mankind as a sort of warden and paragon of the potential humanity had in store for it while the Old One wouldn't draw attention to itself. He was gifted with the same innate mechanism of progress that Orks had for technology, but on a massive scale. Thus, he is a sort of bio-genetic STC of the Old Ones vision of perfection. So, the Emperor pursued the Old Ones projects and ambitions singularly. It kinda worked, but unknowingly humanity was fueled and linked by the innate advantages of Chaos to become the dynamic force that it was, while guided by the Emperor. But the Emperor wasn't human, he didn't think like a human, he didn't understand, he was 'too perfect' and too alien. Chaos continues to grow, the Emperor is the proxy but one that was fundamentally apart from humanity. He couldn't destroy mankind as it went against his raison d'être but neither could he react to it swiftly enough or with enough insight to eradicate the threat of Chaos. Thus, everything that the Old Ones aspired too, Chaos had the chance to pollute and twist: from the webway projects to the creation of genetically superior warriors, everything that had been placed in the Emperor's mind for progress was also vulnerable to the machinations of Chaos. The Old Ones enabled humanity to progress to become the fulcrum of the galaxy while they were innately vulnerable to the lure of Chaos. With the Emperor 'dead', progress stalls and Chaos runs rampant. Long story short, the Emperor is an Old One genetic STC refined from the experiences of the changing of the Orks, the Eldar, and unfortunately done after the touch of Chaos visited mankind which inextricably linked humanity and Chaos so it couldn't be defeated. It's there to explain why humanity is so important in the Milky Way and will continue to be. Other races could come and go, they're tools and workers, but mankind became the apex race that would self propagate and twist in a sort of perpetual motion that couldn't be stopped. The Old Ones first great mistake was hubris and the Emperor is a direct result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triszin Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 I like that mean of iron idea. Really looking forward to Future lore work the men of iron, now that they are coming back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted November 10, 2018 Share Posted November 10, 2018 I started when the Shaman transmigration was the canon and it´s still my favorite This. Still the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 12, 2018 Author Share Posted November 12, 2018 @ Cactus "The men of iron theory has nice echoes of 2001: A Space Odyssey, transforming the Nietzschean ape -> man -> superman into man -> machine -> superman." Yeah...kinda wanted to explore the idea of Warp-attuned/psychic AI @ Triszin "I like that mean of iron idea. Really looking forward to Future lore work the men of iron, now that they are coming back" It would be so ironic if the Emp were a Man of Iron, i.e. an Abominable Intelligence, all this time...but one actually bent upon preserving humanity @ Vykes I do like the idea of the Emp as an uber-mensch genetically enhanced or engineered by the Old Ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Commander Ajax Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Shocked and appalled at the lack of Chuck Norris comments in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Probably the Ye Olde Shaman thing, even if it's insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Probably the Ye Olde Shaman thing, even if it's insane. Which is hilarious since several of us referred to the theory from your MoM Book! Lol. (great read by the way! You got me reading again, I've knocked out 6 40k/HH novels in 2 months!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triszin Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Probably the Ye Olde Shaman thing, even if it's insane. I think thats also what makes it so fitting for 40k. a bunch of shamans ate peyote hummed and saw a really really bad future, then they realized, hey if we all commit ritual self sacrifice, we will all be merged into a mega being that can save humans. so they did it, and just so happens the result was one of thee must single powerful beings in the galaxy. the emperor wasn't some grand plan, humans werent a genetic expirement, we were just a random species in this galaxy, that did something crazy and the result surprised everyone. even orks like the guy they made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 It's so nutty it almost sounds like something the orks would come up with. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Also a fan of the 'shaman theory.' Tho, as for most ancient history pieces in 40K, I personally prefer that there's no "real" answer. You have the Emperor, what he is now, and what he probably was 10,000 years ago. Where that all came from? Well, to me, this is an example of "deep time," as Rick Priestley recently put it. As with the real world, trying to get to get definitive historical answers from something that happened twenty, thirty or forty-thousand years in the past should be damned near impossible. You only have the existing evidence, and stories that may or may not be true - they're mostly from those long dead, who may have been passing down tales that were ancient when they were living. Even races with much longer memories, like the Eldar, pass down tales in a strange, mythical way that's often more metaphor than fact. History's a tough nut. Part of the 3rd edition grimdarkening of the setting was the wide berth they left for the imagination to run wild between uncertainty and the unknown. IIRC, while 3rd Ed vagued up a lot of the setting, this specific ambiguity was more of a 2nd Edition thing - there was never any mention of the Emperor's origin, he was just...there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slitth Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 I prefer the idea that he is just a Perpetual that work slowly towards power. Time, will and vision can create a person of greatness. And big E has all three is spades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 The shaman thing bothers me. Why can't a bunch of psykers just do the same again? Just grab a few hundred thousand psykers and boom. Super Emperor. One might argue that the chaos god's weren't as active back then, but the warp itself was already dangerous. Edit: I would prefer the theory of just a psyker highlander that worked towards getting power, cheated the chaos gods at molech and now is working towards proper godhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Probably the Ye Olde Shaman thing, even if it's insane. In my day it was the new cutting edge Shaman thing... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slitth Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 The shaman thing bothers me. Why can't a bunch of psykers just do the same again? Just grab a few hundred thousand psykers and boom. Super Emperor. One might argue that the chaos god's weren't as active back then, but the warp itself was already dangerous. Edit: I would prefer the theory of just a psyker highlander that worked towards getting power, cheated the chaos gods at molech and now is working towards proper godhood. It would also be a high risk gambit for the shamans, there would be no guarantee that the end result would be the one they wanted. And some have made bigger sacrifices just be become a demon prince That why I like that 1 man walking a thousand different path, you would need to be able to live long to do this. And the primarchs would make more sense. They are not just aspects of the Emperor. But also the ways the Emperor once lived. I could see big E live the scholars life like Magnus, try to find a way to guide mankind with the spiritual like Lorgar, be the spirit of justice like Curze, be the freedom fighter like Angron. All this and more. It would mean that the great crusade would be the sum of all he had learned so far, put it to practical use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactire Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Shocked and appalled at the lack of Chuck Norris comments in this thread. If the Emperor was Chuck Norris, he'd be off that throne long ago, he'd open those doors and all you'd hear from the webway would be silence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triszin Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 The shaman thing bothers me. Why can't a bunch of psykers just do the same again? Just grab a few hundred thousand psykers and boom. Super Emperor. One might argue that the chaos god's weren't as active back then, but the warp itself was already dangerous. Edit: I would prefer the theory of just a psyker highlander that worked towards getting power, cheated the chaos gods at molech and now is working towards proper godhood. to that end, I would say that at the time, the warp was probably relatively calm. What if even back then "the emperor" was initially a gestalt warp deity that was unconsciousness, and wouldn't actually "awaken" before he was found and eaten by another warp deity. and so the shamans did a ritual, (not unlike chaos does to summon greater deamons through) to bring this pre infantile warp diety into real space. and give him form. so he could hide from the warp predators and grow. ------------- having said that, I much rather like the idea that the emperor was this I prefer the idea that he is just a Perpetual that work slowly towards power. Time, will and vision can create a person of greatness. And big E has all three is spades a perpetual with a connection to the warp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finkmilkana Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Just as a note, the whole shaman story is essentials what the eldar are doing right now with ynnead: willingly sacrifice a lot of their psykers to create a superbeing. There are obviously differences, but the basic idea is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 On the shaman theory. Some have asked. Why don't a group of psyker do it now. And others have said "maybe the warp was less dangerous then" Ifi remember correctly. The shaman performed the ritual BECAUSE the warp was starting to become more dangerous. They used to die float in the warp and then reincarnate. Then it became dangerous. Demons had just started to eat them before they could reincarnate. So THEN they decided to go enmass and reincarnate as one being. Basically they would fight off the demons in the warp by weight of numbers and all merge into this single reincarnation. So the warp has gotten MUCH more dangerous since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 There is another person that is essentially the same creature as the Emperor, Ephrael Stern the Thrice-Born. A thousand souls fused into one being that holds incredible power, interestingly enough she was a perpetual before they were a thing as every time she would die she would be reborn as if nothing happened, so maybe all these perpetuals that we see in BL are failed attempts by other shaman covens to create more New Men but the result is just weak facsimiles of the Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 On the shaman theory. Some have asked. Why don't a group of psyker do it now. And others have said "maybe the warp was less dangerous then" Ifi remember correctly. The shaman performed the ritual BECAUSE the warp was starting to become more dangerous. They used to die float in the warp and then reincarnate. Then it became dangerous. Demons had just started to eat them before they could reincarnate. So THEN they decided to go enmass and reincarnate as one being. Basically they would fight off the demons in the warp by weight of numbers and all merge into this single reincarnation. So the warp has gotten MUCH more dangerous since then. Actually, another thing puzzles me more in this. Why no other species attempted this? We know a lot more of them have more psychic talent than humans, why not create a uber being of their own, too? There was what, 65 million years between fall of old ones and birth of the Emperor, why no one had the same bright idea in meantime? Also, where the thousands of shamans came from? We know psychic talent in humans is rare, but becomes more common with time - from which follows it was rarer in the past, yet, somehow, tiny early human population produced thousands of strong, capable psykers that could have attempted this, a ratio unseen on any 40K world... The Ynnead comparison is kind of weak, too, because we're not talking about thousands, but billions of beings that are far stronger psykers on average than humans are. Both Ynnead (and Slaanesh, TBH) should be dozens of orders of magnitude stronger than whatever cave age humans could produce, yet for some reason Ynnead seems far less spectacular than Emperor was, and Big 4 (including Slaanesh) is somehow threatened by him. It's like a mosquito threatening a crocodile. Eh, I hate humano-centrism of early 40K, especially that ridiculously dumb and nonsense suggestion Khorne was created by Genghis Khan, who then produced Nurgle by ordering the start of Black Plague, I feel the shaman theory was just more of the same junk and I really hope GW will come up with something better during the Siege series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Well. The rarity of psykers is after the shamen becoming the emperor perhaps? IDK. You have a point about humanocentrism. They have largely abandoned that and left things vague since 2nd and 3rd edition until recently. And arguable ADB in MoM explained as element of the humanocentrism weather he meant to or not I won't presume. Merely my interpretation... MoM spoiler alert! in MoM the talk about the origin of murder. Aka the 1st murder. The one creating drach'nyen "the end of empires". Essentially the emperor's father was Abel (tho unnamed in book) and his uncle was Cain. The big E gives Cain a heart attack. The E explains that his father's death was the 1st murder. But the warp being non-temporal, the concept of murder echoed back and forth thru time thus seeding history and the cosmos with murders before the event that created the demon. Why? IDK mysticism, emperor-centrism? How about WE are writing this setting and ultimately it's about us and our place in a universe that has no place for us in it that we don't take for ourselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Carnelian Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 I like the idea of a fairly mundane origin, stripped of the mysticism and "destiny" that things like the Sensei theory add. I don't want the Emperor to be a product of some great galaxy-shaking sacrifice or a seed of the Old Ones. I want him to be just "a weapon left out of the box," a remnant of a bygone age who has amassed more power than he knows what to do with. It also adds a layer of irony to the creation of the Primarchs. He's a monster making monsters, so of course they would have deep flaws that eventually undo them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Actually, the criticisms of humanocentrism have just given me an absolutely awesome theory. So, the original idea is that the Emperor is a human-created God by mass suicides of a powerfully psychic culture, but why haven't any other races not done this? Who's to say they haven't? We're told that the Eldar were created by the Old Ones, and that the Eldar created their gods to assist in the war against the C'Tan/Necrons. What we're not told is how this occurred. We have seen, however, that Ynnead is being created by a gestalt of Eldar souls within the Webway, which could almost be described the Eldar creating a sheltered environment for the works of the Shamans to be recreated as opposed to the "open Warp". What if that is exactly how Asuryan/Khaine/Cegorach etc were created? We're told that the Emperor was incarnated because the Warp was becoming more dangerous and thus can be interpreted as being safer as existing in the Materium, but during the War in Heaven? With full control of the Warp? The proto-Eldar could have created their gods in the same way, but had them remain as warp presences, rather than incarnating. As for the "weakness" of Ynnead, I put that down to the bulk of his strength being contained within the Infinity Circuit, and thus isolated from affecting the outside realms in the same way the Eldar souls within are kept safe from Slaanesh. It took the fracturing of the Biel-Tan Infinity Circuit to create a "leak" and create the Yncarne. If Ynnead was truly free, he'd be far more powerful than he currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Saying Ynnead is too weak to be compared the Emperor seems extremely foolish. Ynnead is a newborn, the Emperor has spent tens of thousands of years building power, and did seem to make some kind of deal at Molech that made him stronger. Either one of those reasons could more than account for the disparity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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