Ovidius Incertus Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Molech is the key planet/battle in Vengeful Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scammel Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Vykes, I'm reminded of something you said about Sanguinius - he's been pretty majorly hyped by several characters throughout the series, much moreso than the pre-novel lore suggests (where he was definitively stated as being no match for regular Horus, never mind his Chaos-infused state). In one conversation, he's touted as being the one to actually put Horus down. Given that Horus himself is far from certain that he can kill the Emperor, and that John French's latest video states that Horus basically only has a chance if the Emperor is debilitated, I wonder if the final battle takes a different twist: - Horus duels Sanguinius. Sanguinius is so mighty that Horus barely defeats him and is left in no state to defeat the Emperor. - The Emperor duels Horus. Horus is killed or otherwise left at death's door. - Oll intervenes at the precise moment to mortally wound the Emperor with the Anathame and prevent His totalitarian vision from coming to pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykes Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 You know, Scammel mate, that's actually a pretty interesting thought. We all know the results of the final battle, and I remember the Index Astartes and some of the earlier stuff very much mentioning that Sanguinius was good but was thoroughly and completely outclassed by Horus (who at one point slashed him to ribbons, or throttled him with the Talons, one I remember referring to the X of the post Heresy Death Company) so something is gonna have to come from that on the narrative account. Conjecture time says Oll using the Anathame on the Emperor to stop that nightmare might very well be a possibility. But I'm also wondering if the Fear to Tread Ruinstorm vision connection might come into play as something darker. Again, conjecture time: It might necessitate that Sanguinius has to give something up or take something in, in order to make the 'chink in the armour' which also leads to the Black Rage as something other than his death. As it is now, you're definitely right in that the Emperor is big, bad and strong, Sanguinius is big, bad and strong, and Horus is Spoiler for Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness Kinda bandaged up and anemic following his fight with Russ, leading to the Slaves to Darkness fainting at Beta Gamon and having to be shuttled off-planet, leading to the loss of even more of his lieutenants. Having to fight Russ, Sanguinius, and the Emperor at least in fairly quick succession at this point is seeming nigh on impossible. Half-heard spoiler time for Vengeful Spirit, Descent of Angels, pertaining to Molech: was it Vengeful Spirit, or one of the Black books that said the Emperor was accompanied to Molech at one point by some of the primarchs who were subsequently mindscrubbed, only to be mocked by a changer of ways about them not remembering it? I do wonder if one primarch might have been sacrificed as a necessity. We've seen the Emperor erase memories before after the assassination attempt at Caliban. Back on topic to a degree: yeah I figure Molech might well be an important and relatively new angle on the Emperor. I can't help but wonder if this is a dude who knows all the usual connections to religious symbolism, why is he so okay with the irony in them being used and then surprised at the results? Unless he's not -key Keanu Reeves meme- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 You know, Scammel mate, that's actually a pretty interesting thought. We all know the results of the final battle, and I remember the Index Astartes and some of the earlier stuff very much mentioning that Sanguinius was good but was thoroughly and completely outclassed by Horus (who at one point slashed him to ribbons, or throttled him with the Talons, one I remember referring to the X of the post Heresy Death Company) so something is gonna have to come from that on the narrative account. Conjecture time says Oll using the Anathame on the Emperor to stop that nightmare might very well be a possibility. But I'm also wondering if the Fear to Tread Ruinstorm vision connection might come into play as something darker. Again, conjecture time: It might necessitate that Sanguinius has to give something up or take something in, in order to make the 'chink in the armour' which also leads to the Black Rage as something other than his death. As it is now, you're definitely right in that the Emperor is big, bad and strong, Sanguinius is big, bad and strong, and Horus is Spoiler for Wolfsbane and Slaves to Darkness Kinda bandaged up and anemic following his fight with Russ, leading to the Slaves to Darkness fainting at Beta Gamon and having to be shuttled off-planet, leading to the loss of even more of his lieutenants. Having to fight Russ, Sanguinius, and the Emperor at least in fairly quick succession at this point is seeming nigh on impossible. Half-heard spoiler time for Vengeful Spirit, Descent of Angels, pertaining to Molech: was it Vengeful Spirit, or one of the Black books that said the Emperor was accompanied to Molech at one point by some of the primarchs who were subsequently mindscrubbed, only to be mocked by a changer of ways about them not remembering it? I do wonder if one primarch might have been sacrificed as a necessity. We've seen the Emperor erase memories before after the assassination attempt at Caliban. Back on topic to a degree: yeah I figure Molech might well be an important and relatively new angle on the Emperor. I can't help but wonder if this is a dude who knows all the usual connections to religious symbolism, why is he so okay with the irony in them being used and then surprised at the results? Unless he's not -key Keanu Reeves meme- in vengeful spirit I think Fulgrim and Horus say that they were with him. Maybe Perturabo, can't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 You know, Nikaea was a fortress in Anatolia, Emp's supposed ancient homeland. It also hosted two religious Councils.There's no way in-character Emps is unaware of the relevance of those names. Names are magic.And how tiny the difference between "anathema" and "anathame" is, along with the connection to, again, magical, "athame"... Yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 The Emperor is supposed to be from Anatolia, right? I remember reading that the oldest excavated site (in real life) was also from Anatolia. If I recall it was a stone temple. Maybe the Emperor was made by the shamans who were part of that civilization.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Vykes, I'm reminded of something you said about Sanguinius - he's been pretty majorly hyped by several characters throughout the series, much moreso than the pre-novel lore suggests (where he was definitively stated as being no match for regular Horus, never mind his Chaos-infused state). In one conversation, he's touted as being the one to actually put Horus down. Given that Horus himself is far from certain that he can kill the Emperor, and that John French's latest video states that Horus basically only has a chance if the Emperor is debilitated, I wonder if the final battle takes a different twist: - Horus duels Sanguinius. Sanguinius is so mighty that Horus barely defeats him and is left in no state to defeat the Emperor. - The Emperor duels Horus. Horus is killed or otherwise left at death's door. - Oll intervenes at the precise moment to mortally wound the Emperor with the Anathame and prevent His totalitarian vision from coming to pass. I actually wonder if it's not the other way around - Chaos puppet Horus effortlessly kills Sanguinius without problems, mortally wounds the Emperor (who is actually one to chink his armor) and as he stands there gloating a factor he completely ignored (for being 'just' a human) ends his rule by stabbing him in the back (in sort of ironic mirror of how Abby was sent packing from Cadia in GS). It would both make more sense than Oll basically choosing eternity of war and obscurantism, but would also make the Imperial Cult even more of ironic lie than it already is - by making celebrated sacrifice of beloved hero pointless in the end, emperor being powerless to Chaos threat at its worst, and ultimately 'just' a human being the actual savior who prevented Chaos victory and was ultimately forgotten... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Vykes, I'm reminded of something you said about Sanguinius - he's been pretty majorly hyped by several characters throughout the series, much moreso than the pre-novel lore suggests (where he was definitively stated as being no match for regular Horus, never mind his Chaos-infused state). In one conversation, he's touted as being the one to actually put Horus down. Given that Horus himself is far from certain that he can kill the Emperor, and that John French's latest video states that Horus basically only has a chance if the Emperor is debilitated, I wonder if the final battle takes a different twist: - Horus duels Sanguinius. Sanguinius is so mighty that Horus barely defeats him and is left in no state to defeat the Emperor. - The Emperor duels Horus. Horus is killed or otherwise left at death's door. - Oll intervenes at the precise moment to mortally wound the Emperor with the Anathame and prevent His totalitarian vision from coming to pass. This is maybe the best version of the final battle I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 You know, Nikaea was a fortress in Anatolia, Emp's supposed ancient homeland. It also hosted two religious Councils. Technically, yes, but there's slight problem here - it was founded over 8000 years after his supposed birth, and the Councils were a millennium after that. By that time, there would be so many demographic changes in the region that the Emperor would have almost as little connection to it as he does to modern Turkey (a state that arose another millennium later, so what we could call "sweeping" changes in the region since fall of Rome actually covers only 10% of the time between now and the Emperor's supposed birth). The Emperor is supposed to be from Anatolia, right? I remember reading that the oldest excavated site (in real life) was also from Anatolia. If I recall it was a stone temple. Maybe the Emperor was made by the shamans who were part of that civilization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe Another slight problem here - the temple is in the modern SE Anatolia. You know, the lands that were ethnically cleansed by Turks in WW1 then renamed south Anatolia/eastern Anatolia (which funnily enough means 'eastern eastern land') to make them look Turkish. It's outside of real, historical Anatolia. Ancients would probably said it was located in Syria/Assyria, not Anatolia proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 You know that image of sanguinius dead at the Emperor's feet? He only has 1 stab wound, and who's the guy with the sword? The Emperor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 We will learn soon enough what actually happened there. For now I just go with "artist at that time didn't think his work would get analysed this much and just painted what's cool". :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 Maybe Horus gave Sang the middle finger (or talon)...literally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 We will learn soon enough what actually happened there. For now I just go with "artist at that time didn't think his work would get analysed this much and just painted what's cool". This, but for essentially all 40K lore. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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