Annoying disparity in Primaris options

[Guest MistaGav]

So basically I've been flicking through the various codexes with Primaris in it and I've noticed this weird disparity between some of the options available to certain Primaris units, namely the lieutenants and sergeants. It basically looks like whatever rank and role you are within a certain chapter dictates what you can and can't hold which on one hand I find funny, the other I find kind of annoying. I know that it's a result of GW's whole 'If it's not got a model there's no rules' and I totally understand how limited and restricted some units are. Take this for example:

 

Dark Angels Primaris

- Lieutenant can take master crafted auto or stalker bolt rifle or power sword. Can swap it's bolt pistol for a plasma pistol in any combination.

- Intercessor sergeants can take all 3 rifles and a power sword. No Chainsword.

 

Space Marine Primaris

- Lieutenant can take master crafted auto or stalker bolt rifle or power sword only.

- Intercessor sergeants can take all 3 rifles and a power sword. No Chainsword.

 

Blood Angels Primaris

- Lieutenant can take master crafted auto or stalker bolt rifle or power sword only. No Chainsword.

- Intercessor sergeants can take all 3 rifles, power sword or a chainsword

 

Space Wolves Primaris

- Battle Leader can take master crafted auto or stalker bolt rifle or power sword OR power axe and bolt carbine but in that combination ONLY.

- Intercessor Pack Leaders (Sergeants) can take chainswords only. No Powerswords.

 

Deathwatch

- Intercessor sergeants can take all 3 rifles, power sword or a chainsword

 

Hellblaster Sergeants can take plasma pistol, though why you would want to is anyone's guess.

Only Reivers can take Heavy Bolt pistols.

Only Chaplains and apothecaries can take Absolver bolt pistols.

Only Captains cane take power fist and plasma pistol but ONLY in that combination.

 

Rather than making chapter specific upgrade packs that add a few trinky looking bits. I'd rather then focus on making a proper weapon upgrade pack that let's us outfit characters and sergeants with a wider array of weapons. I think that'd go a long way to making Primaris a bit more playable and free than what we have right now. Apologies if this isn't the right place for it but I wanted to get it out there really.

[justicarius6]

All down to the models that GW have released.

[Spinsanity]

We all know the reason why these options are offered to some chapters and not others: available kits, and GW's convictions that offering options that are not in the box is confusing or unfair to players.

 

So, uh, to be blunt, what is the purpose of your post?

[Blindhamster]

A chance to vent I would guess.

 

 

To be fair it could be fixed with a weapon conversion sprue like the old days. Have a few hands on it that come with various weapons, or if they prefer, have them attached to arms I guess.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Yeah a character updgrade sprue would be nice, or providing an extra weapon option. Problem is that I think it will be a long time before we see it

[Ratherdashing]

Has the fanbase as a whole been communicating to GW that we prefer options and are not confused by them? I know they want to sell character models, and that chapterhouse may have something to do with things like Bike Heroes disappearing. But in an edition that encourages having five or six HQs in an army, it's pretty silly to expect people to use the blister pack heroes anyway. Space Marine HQs, whether Primaris or not, are just the basic troops models with fancy weapons and some gubbins. Letting new players use those options to make custom characters is a lot more noob friendly than telling them they have to buy five blister characters (three of which are identical) at $20 a pop to get started. And the vets will keep buying the character models because of the unique poses and gubbins anyway...

[Marshal Rohr]

The drive to kill conversions by GW is mind blowing. Cookie cutter armies might be fine for white dwarf and studio codexes, but its not representative of the universe and the diversity from chapter to chapter.

[Guest MistaGav]

We all know the reason why these options are offered to some chapters and not others: available kits, and GW's convictions that offering options that are not in the box is confusing or unfair to players.

 

So, uh, to be blunt, what is the purpose of your post?

As I did actually say those things in the post, yea it was just to point it out is all.

[Ratherdashing]

And I'm no sales expert, but I have to think conversions increase revenue too. The minnows like me who use conversions to save money would probably not play at all if we felt like we had to buy the $20 characters. And the whales who really drive business anyway will buy more packs because they buy entire sets for the handful of bits they really want. The really creative ones will even buy cross faction (ie, let me buy this Eldar box because I really like the shoulders), and then they look at their bits box and say, "well, I've got these Eldar models now, might as well start an army..."

[Race Bannon]

The likely counter to "conversation make money" is two-fold: eBay/recasters and non-modelers

 

Bitz Sites that sell bitz are technically taking money away from GW: one dude buys the box and breaks it up and another dude says "why buy a box when I can just buy the bitz for this convetion?"  Recasters are basically doing to the same thing (selling bitz of a thing, or selling the thing at cheaper cost).  So GW just lost a sale right there.

 

Non-modelers is my way of meaning "people who play out the box".  These are people who are less-likely to convert a model in order to use this-or-that option from a Codex because they just want to play the game.  These are the people GW is really marketing to in order to increase sales.  Put another way: decreasing gateway needs (like conversions), increases entry possibilities into the game.  Veterans of the game are likely to play no matter what the Codecies allow/restrict.  It's new players GW needs to keep the game floating.

[Lemondish]

The funny part about all this is that, for the Sergeants, they acquire those options via an upgrade sprue. Intercessor kits do not include power swords or chainswords.

 

Then you look at the Lt. and Captain kits, and how they just keep expanding their wargear options as new one off versions are added.

[spessmarine]

it is pretty obnoxious to have basically no options

[MARK0SIAN]

From GWs point of view it makes sense though. Why sell an upgrade sprue which someone can use to make 5 different captains and LTs from a box of intercessors when you can sell 5 separate captain/LT models at £22 each?

 

it’s a shame because it does put off converters. I mainly use regular marines but I love to mix and match armour types and add in upgrades but it looks like that’s not a direction they want to go with Primaris. Uniformity seems the new philosophy behind Primaris :(

[Lemondish]

From GWs point of view it makes sense though. Why sell an upgrade sprue which someone can use to make 5 different captains and LTs from a box of intercessors when you can sell 5 separate captain/LT models at £22 each?

 

it’s a shame because it does put off converters. I mainly use regular marines but I love to mix and match armour types and add in upgrades but it looks like that’s not a direction they want to go with Primaris. Uniformity seems the new philosophy behind Primaris :(

That's not quite the situation. Keep in mind that only two Primaris LTs and one captain model are actually on sale individually at any given time, and those LTs are for specific chapters. There's one other captain loadout, but it's a limited exclusive available only once a year. Then there's the gravis, which is only in DI.

 

LTs have three bundle exclusive options and one space wolf guy. Two are exclusive to a specific event with one being made to order and the other not showing up until 2019.

 

There really aren't five different captains and LTs realistically available individually.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Deathwatch gives Primaris the options they need.

[Lemondish]

Deathwatch gives Primaris the options they need.

Not quite. It makes many Primaris units better at shooting, but it does little for helping them live up to their namesake. Reivers are named after raiders and pillagers - they should be disruptive. Sure, SIA allows them to be more dangerous, but their disruption should come from their special rules. Sadly, those rules feel like an afterthought with how weak they are.

 

Inceptors and Aggressors, on their own, don't benefit from anything DW brings. It's when you give them ablative wounds that they shine. Almost like they should have more wounds in general... ;)

 

But as far as the kits are concerned, Deathwatch definitely helps bridge the gap by basically having everything available in some way.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

From GWs point of view it makes sense though. Why sell an upgrade sprue which someone can use to make 5 different captains and LTs from a box of intercessors when you can sell 5 separate captain/LT models at £22 each?

 

it’s a shame because it does put off converters. I mainly use regular marines but I love to mix and match armour types and add in upgrades but it looks like that’s not a direction they want to go with Primaris. Uniformity seems the new philosophy behind Primaris :(

That's not quite the situation. Keep in mind that only two Primaris LTs and one captain model are actually on sale individually at any given time, and those LTs are for specific chapters. There's one other captain loadout, but it's a limited exclusive available only once a year. Then there's the gravis, which is only in DI.

 

LTs have three bundle exclusive options and one space wolf guy. Two are exclusive to a specific event with one being made to order and the other not showing up until 2019.

 

There really aren't five different captains and LTs realistically available individually.

That’s true but I’m talking about the idea behind it for GW. There may not be 5 models right now but there’s nothing stopping them making that many individual officers, each with a separate loadout. If they can sell all 5 of those individually rather than sell one kit where you can make multiple officers, that will make them more money.

 

Take for example they standard devastator box. There’s a lot of spares in there, if you get one box of that and some spare regular marines you can get 10 heavy weapons models. That’s two dev squads plus two extra heavies.

 

Now I think they’re moving away from that kind of approach so that you buy a box and you only get what’s on the cover, no spares etc that can be used to flesh out another unit because they’d rather force you to buy another box. I think that’s the same approach with the officers. Don’t sell one kit where you can make several versions, sell several kits that make one version so people are forced to buy those extra kits.

[chapter master 454]

The likely counter to "conversation make money" is two-fold: eBay/recasters and non-modelers

 

Bitz Sites that sell bitz are technically taking money away from GW: one dude buys the box and breaks it up and another dude says "why buy a box when I can just buy the bitz for this convetion?"  Recasters are basically doing to the same thing (selling bitz of a thing, or selling the thing at cheaper cost).  So GW just lost a sale right there.

 

Non-modelers is my way of meaning "people who play out the box".  These are people who are less-likely to convert a model in order to use this-or-that option from a Codex because they just want to play the game.  These are the people GW is really marketing to in order to increase sales.  Put another way: decreasing gateway needs (like conversions), increases entry possibilities into the game.  Veterans of the game are likely to play no matter what the Codecies allow/restrict.  It's new players GW needs to keep the game floating.

 

You can't prove the loss of sale there but yet you show another thing. That player wanted one model out of say a tactical marine box which is £25. Going on the assumption there is no bitz site for this, the player now has the choice and decides...you know what, not worth it.

 

Now we take that same player again but this time with bitz sites included. Now lets not talk about the shady business of re-molding and talk sites that just buy boxes to get the bitz to sell. In this instance the site had to buy a box of tactical marines. Now whether these guys buy in bulk, get a discount or what not is something I don't know but for the sake of argument, the point remains the same. That player now buys the parts from that site instead, supporting the 2nd market which in turn supports the 1st (GW) as that is where they get their bitz from.

 

Take a look at any card game and you will find that in actuality a lot of the time it is the 2nd market that keeps it going because otherwise getting the cards you want is impossible. In fact, I would argue that GW are losing sales to a lack of parts and cutting back options. Because now we players can't tell new players that a unit is great for multiple reasons (the unit is not too shabby plus the kit will give you spare bitz for other squads in the future) but now units are getting boiled down to their absolute minimum. Kits of basic troop squads and basic HQs need to be varied and offer the ability to create your own.

Otherwise we will become like Eldar, faceless HQs with NO personality.

 

I argue that saying bitz sites take away sales is silly and straw man. You cannot prove loss of sale via the existence of the 2nd market which in turn itself helps support the 1st anyway.

[Race Bannon]

Of course I can't prove sales loss, this is just a guess for the sake of discussion.

 

Pardon me if I failed to express my point: Naturally, the first market is supported by the second market because someone had to buy from GW to get the parts.  Yet, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that for every 1 box of <unit x> bought by a bitz seller, at least one person people will purchase bitz from that one box.  Thus, GW has lost revenue by one of that box.  In other words, two people have benefited on the secondary market from the purchase of one box.  The more people buy bitz from that one box, the less value GW got from it's sole purchase.

 

Last year, I bought 5 Grey Knight Strike Squad backpacks for about $5 US (with shipping).  For the amount of bitz in the box that's extortionate, of course :P  Yet, I saved over $55 on that purchase.  GW got their $60, and I got exactly what I wanted (not a whole box of unused parts).  It's a safe bet (unproven) someone else got some legs, while someone else got the torsos, maybe some helmets.  The bitzer likely made a profit from that box over time.  But no matter what, GW only took $60 in that instance.

 

I think it's agreed upon that GWs Codecies are more about the product being sold to the consumer, and less about what makes sense to the gamer, as pointed out by the OP.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Deathwatch gives Primaris the options they need.

Not quite. It makes many Primaris units better at shooting, but it does little for helping them live up to their namesake. Reivers are named after raiders and pillagers - they should be disruptive. Sure, SIA allows them to be more dangerous, but their disruption should come from their special rules. Sadly, those rules feel like an afterthought with how weak they are.

 

Inceptors and Aggressors, on their own, don't benefit from anything DW brings. It's when you give them ablative wounds that they shine. Almost like they should have more wounds in general...

 

But as far as the kits are concerned, Deathwatch definitely helps bridge the gap by basically having everything available in some way.

 

 

Lulz... Look what you can do with a Fortis Kill Team:

 

5x Intercessor (incl. Sergeant)

Aggressor(s)

Inceptor(s) - plasma exterminators or assault bolters

Hellblaster(s)

 

So for example suppose you run five Intercessors including their sergeant plus an Aggressor and a Hellblaster or two. You've got the dakka, you've got the plas and you've got fist city...plus they can deep strike and wound on +1. That is better than anything the SM dex has to offer.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Deathwatch gives Primaris the options they need.

Not quite. It makes many Primaris units better at shooting, but it does little for helping them live up to their namesake. Reivers are named after raiders and pillagers - they should be disruptive. Sure, SIA allows them to be more dangerous, but their disruption should come from their special rules. Sadly, those rules feel like an afterthought with how weak they are.

 

Inceptors and Aggressors, on their own, don't benefit from anything DW brings. It's when you give them ablative wounds that they shine. Almost like they should have more wounds in general...

 

But as far as the kits are concerned, Deathwatch definitely helps bridge the gap by basically having everything available in some way.

 

 

Lulz... Look what you can do with a Fortis Kill Team:

 

5x Intercessor (incl. Sergeant)

Aggressor(s)

Inceptor(s) - plasma exterminators or assault bolters

Hellblaster(s)

 

So for example suppose you run five Intercessors including their sergeant plus an Aggressor and a Hellblaster or two. You've got the dakka, you've got the plas and you've got fist city...plus they can deep strike and wound on +1. That is better than anything the SM dex has to offer.

 

 

How does that give captains and LTs. more wargear options, especially when one of those units isn't even available to Deathwatch? Lulz indeed...

 

The only benefit Deathwatch gives is not limiting Sgt. wargear. 

[chapter master 454]

Of course I can't prove sales loss, this is just a guess for the sake of discussion.

 

Pardon me if I failed to express my point: Naturally, the first market is supported by the second market because someone had to buy from GW to get the parts.  Yet, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that for every 1 box of <unit x> bought by a bitz seller, at least one person people will purchase bitz from that one box.  Thus, GW has lost revenue by one of that box.  In other words, two people have benefited on the secondary market from the purchase of one box.  The more people buy bitz from that one box, the less value GW got from it's sole purchase.

 

Last year, I bought 5 Grey Knight Strike Squad backpacks for about $5 US (with shipping).  For the amount of bitz in the box that's extortionate, of course   Yet, I saved over $55 on that purchase.  GW got their $60, and I got exactly what I wanted (not a whole box of unused parts).  It's a safe bet (unproven) someone else got some legs, while someone else got the torsos, maybe some helmets.  The bitzer likely made a profit from that box over time.  But no matter what, GW only took $60 in that instance.

 

I think it's agreed upon that GWs Codecies are more about the product being sold to the consumer, and less about what makes sense to the gamer, as pointed out by the OP.

 

I see your point but again you are saying that GW would only of saw the 60 once, but in all cases you can only reasonably assume people will only buy what they want. Again, when I talk about the second market, I refer to it as a healthy thing.

 

Lets talk about the situation at hand. You and let us say 5 others (so 6 people in total) want one specific part out of a box in the requisite number it comes in (so 5 legs, 5 back packs so on). Of those 6 people, how many are willing to buy a box just for parts when the rest is useless? They have no need for the rest of it, they only want their parts and nothing more. I would reasonably argue only 1 person would and even then I am going out to stretch it here. Thus, GW would of only made 1 sale as the rest now just say "screw it" and don't bother.

Another scenario is that those 6 people have somehow all met together somehow and all discuss the parts they want and realise they could all pitch in to get one box and divide the contents as needed. Again, those people now all put in their 1/6 of the box price for the purchase and GW still only have 1 sale.

 

My point I am making is that increasing options increases sales. Taking options away reduces sales. It turns the game into a card game and I mean that very seriously. In YuGioh you are only allowed up to 3 of one card in your deck and in magic up to 4. What do you think MOST people do once they get their 4th copy of their needed cards? They stop getting them as further copies are generally useless (unless they are "chase" cards and can hold value to trade for at a later date for something else but those tend to be 1 or 2 cards in a set) and even then a lot of decks don't run their full "playset" (playset refers to having maximum amount of copies you could legally play in a deck). THAT is what GW are doing to their game, they are making armies like playing cards. These aren't units anymore with unique options but cards you put in your deck with no choice except for what they work with.

How many more Wraithhost units am I going to buy now that I have 3 sets of 5? One more box of them, because any more than 4 sets of 5 is kinda silly. How many units of primaris units will someone buy before they are content with their unit? 3 sets of 10? Seems most reasonable as the common game is played at 2000 points and thus what limit is their on your units?

 

3 of one unit.

 

Look at that, we are now playing a card game at that rate that makes us colour in the pretty pictures they give us.

I am very vocal about this and VERY disappointed in GW for their reduction of options in units. They have done well and continue to do so but they must rectify this issue and within a couple of editions (if not the next) because otherwise, why bother playing this game? This game isn't about the game alone, it is about having your own army you are proud of. When I see two armies of primaris...it just depresses me. Both armies look the same, its just that both players picked the same fighter in a fighting game: A different coat of paint.

I am both a hobbyist and gamer. The only thing marines have in spades (or did) was their options for models which made them AWESOME to model. Now...well even now they suck at that. So marines now suck in the game and out of.

Options are what made this game so great because look at what we all love to see, unique HQs. Unique flairs and stories we can tell in a squad by how we model each trooper. That is going away at this point in time. Eventually I suppose we should all just use easy to build units then...since this game isn't about the hobby or models huh?

 

I am very serious about this. Do not think I am angry at anyone but just the fact GW are taking options away just depresses me badly. And that started with the army I once hated the most, Eldar. Seeing their Autarchs reduced to "use yriel or no-one" in their codex was a massive red flag. Options are the life of this game.

[killersquid]

 

Nothing is stopping folks from converting their army, or customizing it. I don't think more wargear options will make a huge difference in this regard.

 

When I go to tournaments, I see a lot of very cool, unique looking armies. Hobby is just as strong as it's ever been, maybe more, as lots of tournaments award extra points for painting rubrics and converting your models.

[Race Bannon]

 

Of course I can't prove sales loss, this is just a guess for the sake of discussion.

 

Pardon me if I failed to express my point: Naturally, the first market is supported by the second market because someone had to buy from GW to get the parts.  Yet, it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that for every 1 box of <unit x> bought by a bitz seller, at least one person people will purchase bitz from that one box.  Thus, GW has lost revenue by one of that box.  In other words, two people have benefited on the secondary market from the purchase of one box.  The more people buy bitz from that one box, the less value GW got from it's sole purchase.

 

Last year, I bought 5 Grey Knight Strike Squad backpacks for about $5 US (with shipping).  For the amount of bitz in the box that's extortionate, of course   Yet, I saved over $55 on that purchase.  GW got their $60, and I got exactly what I wanted (not a whole box of unused parts).  It's a safe bet (unproven) someone else got some legs, while someone else got the torsos, maybe some helmets.  The bitzer likely made a profit from that box over time.  But no matter what, GW only took $60 in that instance.

 

I think it's agreed upon that GWs Codecies are more about the product being sold to the consumer, and less about what makes sense to the gamer, as pointed out by the OP.

 

I see your point but again you are saying that GW would only of saw the 60 once, but in all cases you can only reasonably assume people will only buy what they want. Again, when I talk about the second market, I refer to it as a healthy thing.

 

...

 

I am very serious about this. Do not think I am angry at anyone but just the fact GW are taking options away just depresses me badly. And that started with the army I once hated the most, Eldar. Seeing their Autarchs reduced to "use yriel or no-one" in their codex was a massive red flag. Options are the life of this game.

 

 

Ahh, yeah man, I think we both see the discussion about the same way.

 

I'm not suggesting the second market is "bad" per se.  It IS healthy, from a certain point of view and I'm okay with that.

 

I'm also of the opinion that restricting options is a terrible way of playing a game with the potential diversity of Warhammer, given it's lengthy history of being about the opposite, for the most part.

 

Having said that, I still believe Thunder Hammers and Lightning Claws should only be used with Terminator armor :lol:

[Lemondish]

Nothing is stopping folks from converting their army, or customizing it. I don't think more wargear options will make a huge difference in this regard.

 

When I go to tournaments, I see a lot of very cool, unique looking armies. Hobby is just as strong as it's ever been, maybe more, as lots of tournaments award extra points for painting rubrics and converting your models.

Wargear options are the gatekeeper for customization. If a unit can't take a particular piece of gear, or a particular combination, you aren't able to customize them as freely.