Axioms of Victory: Unconventional RG Strategies

[duz_]

Although the various tournament missions will dictate the finer details of your list build I think the fundamentals of strategies we should be discussing here could be adapted to all formats.

 

For example although rule book maelstrom favours mobility and specific objective grabbing during the game vs ITC doesnt mean you should ignore mobility in an ITC list. You might just take less.

 

 

Although I ramble to get to my point I suggest we keep the topic general enough to unconventional strategies and tactics that can be applied to any game format. :tu:

 

However starting a complimentary thread which discuss each format and the finer details and differences in those doesnt sound like a bad idea either. ;)

[GreyCrow]

Have you guys ever played against 3 Armigers at 1000 points ?

A friend of mine wanted to try and break the meta with 1000 points Chaos list with 3 Armigers Warglaives, 2 min squads of World Eaters berserkers in Rhinos and 1 Jump Pack Chaos Lord.

 

More cheese than where I’m from in France.

 

I managed to score a close defeat with an unoptimal list (20-24 VP).

I had a Bataillon with 30 Tacticals, 10 Assault Marines, 5 Devastators, 10 Scouts. Captain and Lieutenant.

 

Used the scouts to hold 2 Objectives on 1 point and force him to divert ressources to deal with them, while I STFS the half company on a single flank.

Kept the entire company in rerolls bubble of both HQs until Turn 5 where I had to split. Downed 2 Armigers and 2 Rhinos, along with the Chaos Lord and 5 zerkers.

Lost mostly because I picked the wrong flank (less objectives) to be aggressive with the Tacticals.

 

Learnings : Objective Secured is really the only strength of Troops.

 

More convinced that the entire game balance relies around this every day.

It was glorious to see him dedicate 3 turns of the Chaos Lord + 1 Armigers + 1 zerker squad in reserve to deal with the Scouts.

 

I guess sacrificial Troops can work too, only in a refused flank strategy.

You force the opponent to waste decent units to deal with these objectives, while you maximize strength on one flank.

 

This was a game before I got to the conclusions approached in this thread, and my mistake in list building (and play style), was to not abuse Objective Secured enough.

 

Even though it feels kind of tacked on and brings suspension of disbelief, this is the way the game needs to be played.

[GreyCrow]

Now for a summary of Axioms :

- The most valuable currency is objective secured

- Keep your Troops alive because they have this

- Sacrifice (smartly) your support units to distract from the Troops

- Ensure wide board control to force the enemy to spread his forces while you can concentrate your forces somewhere

- You can’t control every objective so sacrifice some of them (incl your Troops that may hold them, but better if they are held by support units)

 

The best news about this is that you can build thematic forces.

Extreme example (If GW removes the rule of three) at 2000 points :

- HQ : Captain (JP/Powerfist) - 2 JP lieutenants

- Troops : 5 x 10 Scouts + 5 Scouts (55 !)

- FA : 2x10 Assault Marines (3 plasma pistols in each) + 4 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Flamers + Pair of Lightning Claw in each)

 

Strategy : delay deployment with Scouts, then spam the jump packs on one flank with Strike from the Shadows or Deep Strike.

 

Picture a flock of 60 Assault Marines trying to swarm 1 to 2 objectives, while the scouts are drawing a battleline throughout the board.

Enemy is super confused as to where to concentrate force!

 

___

 

Bear with me one more post for a super fun unconventional tactics where math can create some tactics that are both visually awesome and super useful on the battlefield.

[GreyCrow]

Do you remember when I told you that I managed to keep all the non Scout infantry within reroll distance of the Captain?

 

Do you know how many 32mm Marines can fit within 6” of the Captain?

Roughly 112 32mm bases. Assuming that you stack them perfectly and that there are no spaces in between.

 

Actually, let’s account for that and say 100 for the sake of it.

A FULL BATLLE COMPANY can fit in a 13.25” radius circle.

That means 1/6th of the length of the table and 1/4th is its width ! 1/24th or 4.1% of the total play area fits 2000 points of Marines.

 

IT’S SUPER SMALL! :’D

 

What if we pictures the 60 Assault Marines example previously ?

You can fit them in a square that is 9”x9”.

Not only it’s super easy to find an area that is line of sight hidden of this small size, but you also cover up 3 Objectjves at 12” équilatéral triangle with the 3” control zone or 4 Objectives in a 12” square.

 

Who the hell is going to get close to 60 Assault Marines ?

For 960 points, they may only take 7 wounds off an IK a turn (but how many can the IK reliably kill in one turn ?), but they will take out a Rhino a turn and 20 MEQs, without any kind of equipment.

 

You literally have a mobile Phalanx, just noping an area containing 3-4 objectives, while 55 Scouts stroll afar (or near the blob of doom) to annoy the opponent thanks to their objective secured.

 

2 things make this list fun as hell :

1) You have 11 drops of Scouts before you have to deploy any Assault Marines. And you can choose to keep 50 of them in Deep Strike réserves while you falsely deploy one on the table.

2) You can STFS in an advance position and basically get a 21” move out of your DZ turn 1.

 

And for the best : it’s going to look awe inspiring and amazing on the battlefield, while being 100% on fluff for the Raven Guard.

 

Can you guys try to stack 50 to 100 Marines in the smallest square/circle you can think of ?

And post pictures with Rhinos / Cola cans as scale to give everybody some visual awe ?

[MajorNese]

Now for a summary of Axioms :

- The most valuable currency is objective secured

To be entirely honest, ObSec rarely came to use in my games. Unless the troops get into objective contests with other skirmishers (like said Tau ghosts), most non-troops units will have little problem with wiping out a few tacs.

 

What did it mostly for me was flying below the radar. Since everything started to score, tacs received the image of a tax you have to take to fill your detachment requirements. No one will fear a few bolters, no one will fail to kill them if they really want, and not mobile enough (unless adding transport) to be flexible. A useless tax, running around without popping up on the threat radars, and get ignored until objectives become relevant at last. Maybe use them as deep strike blockers somewhere on the flank to even reinforce that image. Tacs are effectively invulnerable as long as no one cares to attack them, free to move around.

[GreyCrow]

 

Now for a summary of Axioms :

- The most valuable currency is objective secured

To be entirely honest, ObSec rarely came to use in my games. Unless the troops get into objective contests with other skirmishers (like said Tau ghosts), most non-troops units will have little problem with wiping out a few tacs.

 

What did it mostly for me was flying below the radar. Since everything started to score, tacs received the image of a tax you have to take to fill your detachment requirements. No one will fear a few bolters, no one will fail to kill them if they really want, and not mobile enough (unless adding transport) to be flexible. A useless tax, running around without popping up on the threat radars, and get ignored until objectives become relevant at last. Maybe use them as deep strike blockers somewhere on the flank to even reinforce that image. Tacs are effectively invulnerable as long as no one cares to attack them, free to move around.

 

 

That's exactly the point of this thread.

 

You can't use Troops to scare the enemy off. They are invulnerable because the opponent focuses on your other units!

 

That's why you select objective placement that are accessible to your tacticals, while you use the more interesting pieces of your army as sacrificial (yet damaging) distractions, in this model.

 

Ultimately, 40k's victory conditions whether we like it or not are objective capture. Even maelstrom objectives have much more focus on objectives, relatively, than killing stuff.

Killing is satisfying, but discipline in objectives is the key.

We think that killing more than the opponent is key, it's not.

 

EDIT : I'm still curious to see how many Marines you guys can stack in a small area!

Edited November 15, 2018 by GreyCrow

[Panzer]

So, the strategy is :

- Since you cant get away with protecting your valuables, sacrifice them to make sure your Troops survive till end game

 

 

Almost as if the Fire support and Close support units are there to, in fact, support the Battleline units which have the job to fulfill the actual objectives. 

[Race Bannon]

 

So, the strategy is :

- Since you cant get away with protecting your valuables, sacrifice them to make sure your Troops survive till end game

 

 

Almost as if the Fire support and Close support units are there to, in fact, support the Battleline units which have the job to fulfill the actual objectives. 

 

 

What is this logic?!  Space Marines are the ultimate power in the universe.  I suggest we use it.  

[TheGoldenThrone]

Now for a summary of Axioms :

- The most valuable currency is objective secured

- Keep your Troops alive because they have this

- Sacrifice (smartly) your support units to distract from the Troops

- Ensure wide board control to force the enemy to spread his forces while you can concentrate your forces somewhere

- You can’t control every objective so sacrifice some of them (incl your Troops that may hold them, but better if they are held by support units)

 

The best news about this is that you can build thematic forces.

Extreme example (If GW removes the rule of three) at 2000 points :

- HQ : Captain (JP/Powerfist) - 2 JP lieutenants

- Troops : 5 x 10 Scouts + 5 Scouts (55 !)

- FA : 2x10 Assault Marines (3 plasma pistols in each) + 4 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Flamers + Pair of Lightning Claw in each)

 

Strategy : delay deployment with Scouts, then spam the jump packs on one flank with Strike from the Shadows or Deep Strike.

 

Picture a flock of 60 Assault Marines trying to swarm 1 to 2 objectives, while the scouts are drawing a battleline throughout the board.

Enemy is super confused as to where to concentrate force!

 

___

 

Bear with me one more post for a super fun unconventional tactics where math can create some tactics that are both visually awesome and super useful on the battlefield.

This is like running Marines as a horde army, but without sacrificing the Troops as part of the horde! Interesting!

 

Horde armies are doing pretty well at the moment (at least compared to C:SM). I think it would be difficult for the opponent to deal with this much board control. And with bodies come options. I think it could work -- at least until any repeat opponents see it the first time.

 

Will typical "anti-horde" strategies work against Marines? Better T + Saves than the expected targets of horde clearance units. Hmm. I like it!

 

I don't have nearly enough Scouts or Assault Marines to give it a whirl. Anyone try this out yet? 

[Jacques Corbin]

Yeah, I crowd out the board with Scouts. It is hilarious. I even bring bare bones Sternguard for some of my backfield objectives. Cheap as chips, and their AP-2 Bolters are hilarious. I just may get another kit.

 

I use 2 Ironclad Dreadnoughts as Distractions. They get Chapter Tactics, and combined with smoke launchers, you do not want to fire supercharged plasma at them on turn 1.

 

I run Assault marines 2 ways. 2 Flamers, and a 2 Lightning Claw Sergeant, or 2 Plasma Pistols, and a Plasma Pistol and Power Sword on the Sergeant. The latter squad escorts a Jump Captain. A Jump Chaplain or Jump Lieutenant accompanies the other squad.

 

I have added a second Thunderfire Cannon, and 2 Stalkers to my collection. Gotta love that firepower. Then add a squad or two of Lascannon Devastators.

 

Who, with all that scarier stuff would shoot at Scouts?

 

I am considering breaking out the Land Speeders Storm, and holding combat Squads of my Scouts in reserve, just to zip on during turn 3, and play hard & fast for objectives. With an 18" move, it can be in midfield right after it comes on from the table edge. They are too fragile to start on the table, but after 2 or 3 turns, hopefully you have pulled a few of the enemy's teeth.

[mertbl]

Land speeder storms dont have a deep strike or outflank ability.

[thewarriorhunter]

Correct but they fly so you can keep them hidden and then zip them wherever late game. Pseudo deep strike... I guess...

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

When I first got back into the hobby, I used my original army (that I was still using at the end of 4th Ed). My return to the game list looked something like this:

 

RG Brigade

 

Captain - JP, TLC - Raven's Fury, Warlord - Silent Killer

Lieutenant - JP, Teeth of Terra, Combi-Melta

Chaplain - JP, PP, Crozius

 

3x 5-Man Scout Squad - Bolters, H-Bolter

3x 5-Man Scout Squad - Snipers, Missile Launcher, Cloaks

 

3x Ven Dread - TLLC, ML

 

1x 8-Man ASM Squad - 2 Flamers

2x 8-Man ASM Squad - 3 Plasma Pistols

 

1x Dev Squad - 2 Heavy Bolters, Cherub

1x Dev Squad - 2 Missle Launchers

1x Whirlwind

 

I would typically get one Maelstrom objective in my DZ with decent cover, I would pick this as my "castle" and would get my Devs and Dreads. The other 5 would all get a smattering of Scouts.

 

Depending on opponent, my ASMs would move around the board, challenge my opponent on their ability to complete their objectives, and die. Well and often.

 

I hit a wall with this list when I started to play against high-mobility + high-damage units from my opponents. (Examples included: Flyers, "Fly" vehicles, etc)

 

It's not that the list was bad, per se. It was more the fact that I felt like a cruel parent, and every turn I was forced to pick another 1-2 units to "send into the meat grinder" to continue to complete objectives. Almost every game I played, I had a commanding lead in Maelstrom points, but had very little left on the board. My last 1-2 turns in most games comprised of a rousing game of "hide the Jump Captain" or "all be damned, two bolter scouts CAN fit in that container"

 

While I was winning, I wasn't having any fun. While the endings were intense, they felt more like me trying to rob my opponent of victory. (And not in a good way)

 

Maybe that doesn't make sense.

 

At the end of the day, it was a list with ~30 Scouts and ~40 Power Armored Marines, that felt like a race against the clock.

[GreyCrow]

Super feedback guys!

 

It seems that there are some validity to this theory based on experimental observations.

itvyper, I do understand that it is painful to send units to the meatgrinder. Unfortuntately, this is what we have to do in the game the way it is set up. It's counter intuitive to the basics of strategy, but it seems to be the case here.

 

There are many lists that can be done using this paradigm. I was in business trip for a couple of days. Ample time in the plane allowed me to theorycraft a little bit.

 

The good news is : Being Codex Compliant can work. The bad news (for Roboute) is that Codex compliant isn't the only effective way to go.

 

There are 4 categories of list possible with the Marine Codex that I see at the moment. Here they are with examples at 2000pts.

 

1) Maximum tanking: Only build for survivability of your Troops and large volume of bodies. Goal is to overwhelm objectives with mass. Damage is done through weight of dice and rerolls.

 

Ex: 

Captain, Techmarine, Lieutenant

Company Ancient, Company Veterans

8 x 10 Tactical Squads

9 Rhinos with double stormbolters

 

All barebones, requires 1 Bataillon + 1 Patrol. 1995 points.

 

90 T7 3+ wounds and around 90 T4. You need 338 bolter shots per turn over 6 turns! to wipe this army. I don't think being tabled is a possibility.

You use the Rhinos mobility and smokescreens to zip around on the objectives and overwhelm the enemy 8 to 1. Force him to spread out then use mobility to gang up.

 

2) Gun Phalanx: Spam of similar unit types, not unlike Maximum Tanking but with more gank and less tank. Move all the army as a blob aiming to conquer zones where objectives are packed: This is where your typical Battle Company will be.

 

Ex:

Captain (geared), Lieutenant (geared)

6 x 10 Tacicals - Plasma Pistol, Plasma gun, Missile Launcher

2 x 10 Devastataors - 2 Missiles; 2 Plasma Cannon

2 x 10 Assault Marines - 2 Flamers, 1 Plasma Pistol

 

This is really the meatgrinder. Keep the formation 12'' wide max and place objecives in a narrow zone in close proximity. Minimize the enemy line of sight while making sure all similar weapontypes can be brought to bear at the same target.

Nobody likes 10 Missiles or 14 Plasma Shots at 24''.

Use weight of dice if enemy gets close.

Every unit is an ablative unit for the guns, every model as well.

Gut feelings tell me that Ultramarine Tactics will be superb with this build and the previous one.

 

3)  One Trick Pony with mass. 25%-30% of points in naked Troops, 10% HQ, rest is invested in one unit type (ideally the same unit). Spread the Troops around a battle line, then concentrate your Pony somewhere to concentrate force and distract from Troops.

 

Ex:

 

The list quoted above with 55 Scouts and 60 Assault Marines.

The Assault are literally there to slow down the enemy and silence his guns.

 

Ex 2:

3 Techmarines with Servo Harness

4 x 10 naked Tacticals

6 Stormtalons with Typhoon Missile (yes, I went there! - If you field this, you have to play Ride of the Valkyries)

 

Pretty straightforward. These mosquitoes have the firepower to take down a Landraider in a turn.

 

Advantages: You have mass and a dedicated army group with enough punch to gank a zone. Go for the weak spots in your enemy's line and put pressure on the Troops to ensure your Marines can outnumber the objectives. Focus on Marine killers.

 

Inconvenients: You are baiting to be hard countered and you are very sensitive to a table that disfavours the playstyle.

 

4) 2 Trick Pony. Same as above, but you rely on 2 types of support for your Troops that cover 2 different fields. Logistics are more complex but you still keep a lot of mass.

 

Ex:

Captain (geared), Lieutenant (geared)

4 x 10 naked Tacticals

2 x 10 Vanguard Veterans with Lightning Claws

4 x 5 Devastators with 4 Lascannons

 

Only difference between this and a Battle Company is that you have 3 battlegroups that can operate independently. 16 Lascannon Devas don't need to be close to the Tacticals. 20 Twin Claw Vanguards can operate on their own to push a flank aggressively.

Basically, this is also the structure GW wants you to follow with the Primaris.

 

It's less risky than the first one to be hard countered, but each enemy will probably wipe one of your battlegroup before the others, so you need to adapt logistics when that happens, which may be a risk.

 

---

 

Overall, many ways to field effective lists with the idea to sacrifice support. I'm sure you will be able to find smth to your liking

[GreyCrow]

Update!

 

Got a chance to playtest today a list fitting this theme. Funnily enough, my opponent brought a similar list!

 

Iron Hands this time to fit the theme of the list, 1000 pts to keep it short with a Captain, 20 naked Tacts, 5 CC Scouts, 2 Predators with LasTurret and Heavy Bolters, 2 Vindicators.

 

My opponent did the right thing and went to kill the Tacticals who were farming objectives (scenario where you scoer 1 pt/turn for any objective held or unit destroyed), but this allowed my Predators and Vindicators to remain unscathed for the most part and keep firing.

 

Great opponent and fun game, but I rarely had as much fun with my armies.

Playing for scoring is really making the Tactical Marines MVPs!

[Dracos]

Reposting from another post because it really belonged here first :) Hell I've even started painting a little after months off crappy life stuff.  

 

Its a 1000 pt army designed as a TAC list. 

 

Deployment from last to first.

1) The Xiphon placed opposite of the enemy anti-tank units. Designed to fly into the Captain's sphere of influence with first move.

2) Characters placed initially behind the Intercessors and in front of the Hellblasters.

3) The Hellblasters are the snipers in this army. Six feet diameter of influence and placed in cover at all cost.

4) The Aggressors placed on flank of the Intercessors to intercept basic infantry.

5) The Intercessors places 4 inches on either side of where you plan to place the Hellblasters.

6) Scouts are there to grab that pain in the ass out of the way Objective or deployed on the opposite flank of the Aggressors.

 

Too many variables for comprehensive discussion but although this is a gunline, the Aggressors and Intercessors are flexible enough to advance if the mission and enemy composition make serve the mission purpose.

 

Strike from the Shadows (which is why I need a battalion) can allow you some nice deployment shenannigans but basically is used to reposition any units that would benefit from a 9 inch move. Its not as cool as before but positive side in no need to worry about Unit numbers and PP. Imagine knowing you are having the first go and being able to suddenly push most your army 9 inches into no mans land racing into the Tau before the game starts, or fading back 9 inches making that first turn Orc charge suddenly impossible. Not to mention if you go second ... -2 to hit all Raven Guard units (this would include the flyer if I'm not mistaken 

 

This is at a 1000 points. I will have ability to double this and mirror the field or I have a Counts As <Shrike> and some a 5 man Plasma-ceptor unit I'm building I want to use to apply to use to apply pressure on the enemy backfield to get at troublesome units like Reapers and Hive Guard. The second Xiphon Interceptors weight combined with the first might be able to the same (and I love the models so yeah two) but damn it even a RG successor needs jump pack troops 

[Panzer]

That's the list with 2x5 Intercessors and 1x5 Scouts, right? I don't think it fits here. 15 models in your troop slots isn't really troop heavy for 1000 points. You're still spending a LOT of points in heavy hitters with your Xiphon Interceptor, Hellblaster and 4 model Aggressors instead of focussing on Troops. A battalion for 1000 points is the norm even for Marines. ^^

[MajorNese]

That's the list with 2x5 Intercessors and 1x5 Scouts, right? I don't think it fits here. 15 models in your troop slots isn't really troop heavy for 1000 points. You're still spending a LOT of points in heavy hitters with your Xiphon Interceptor, Hellblaster and 4 model Aggressors instead of focussing on Troops. A battalion for 1000 points is the norm even for Marines. ^^

Hell, that's exactly the troops amount (except for one intercessor) I used to bring to that 2000p tournament, and no opponent ever managed to kill them all. It's all about proper distraction.

[Dracos]

It’s like Grey Crow said at the beginning. At the moment Marines play counter-intuitively. Especially Primaris imo. The “elite” units have to tie up the enemy units long enough the troops can score you your points. Do you ignore then Aggressors as your trying to get to the Intercessor? You absolutely need to have a plan to deal with the Xiphon and/or Inceptors. These Hellblasters only have one shot a piece and that is the one thing I might rethink after Chapter Approved. I think I’d prefer the standard Hellblaster but I wanted some anti-tank/monster redundancy as a threat. I might look at shoehorning a 5 man Plasma-ceptor team into the original list to replace my beautiful Xiohon :(

[GreyCrow]

sfPanzer: I'm always going Patrol for 1000 points of Space Marines. Always found that the extra 5CP mattered less to me than bringing the same amount of points in more dudes

 

It's fun to see that our conclusions tend to go towards the same direction, from different perspectives. I think there is something to explore here.

 

Still, for Primaris, I'm really curious to see if the spamming technique works of if it is just a figment of my imagination...

Edited December 1, 2018 by GreyCrow

[Dracos]

Ok I got kind of salty if the main Astartes forum, and by kind of I mean yeah salty, about losing our obviously OP of -1 to be hit at 12 inches. After having SftS nerfed it just left an ugly taste in my mouth with how GW is consistently screwing Marines in general and RG specifically. The stratagem I could work with as much as it kills Primaris who don’t want to waste points on targets, I mean Repulsors. Christ though a simple -1 at 12” is going to make Raven Guard the next Druhkar? Probably not :( Seriously +1 on the cover save just isn’t squat with 8th edition mechanics.

 

Okay shaking (most) that salt off, and time to go to work.

 

First of all this ticks me off I think my energy to get my army workable is back. So while I’m gluing a squad of my Hellblasters together I’ve done some thinking

 

1) Although I poo poo it the +1 is something. Congrats Aggressors you now are 2+ 5T. Almost good as Terminators with your 18” range Wooooo :)

2) Big IF but if the +1 cover saves stack, with point adjustment camo cloaks are worth the points for Raven Guard. If they don’t stack then (as I suspect) I’m tasting more salt.

3) I’m still very interested about how to get most out of SftS. I think their are some nice shenanigans possible for someone how knows how to breakdown the table terrain layout and highest probabilities in the movement and assault phases.

 

Time to finish my Intercessors start the Reiver counts as Scouts and yeah suddenly I’m good fielding two Xiphons or a Knight :)

Edited December 8, 2018 by Inquisitor Dracos

[thewarriorhunter]

Did I miss something? When did we lose our CT? Are you referring to orks or is this a game-wide change?

[Dracos]

It will be in Chapter Approved 2018.

 

All -1 to hit Codex Tactics are to become +1 Cover Saves.

 

 

Kind of like the Fly nerf hurt everyone but some (Eldar) were less effected because other areas of the codex either cover or compensate for said nerf

Edited December 8, 2018 by Inquisitor Dracos

[thewarriorhunter]

hrm... that does seem like a big ouch to us. Is there an article with this or is it leaked info?

 

Edit: So I found some of the leaked stuff saying it... do we know if it's outside of 12" still? Do we have to be in cover to benefit? That does seem really lame... before we could have avoided a high AP shot. Now if it goes through we roll on a worse save... Unless I'm missing something.

Edited December 8, 2018 by thewarriorhunter

[Jacques Corbin]

Wait, so my ninja shenanigans are going away too?! C'mon, ugh! I guess whoever cries and whines the most and the loudest gets their way. Our CT is what allows me to weather all the ridiculous shooting from Tau and Guard lists.

 

It's not cover GW! It's sneaky concealment! It's a "I know they are out there, somewhere over there, just not sure where" as opposed to "they are right over there, in hard cover, behind that rubble" kind of thing. You can pick someone out of cover, like the Sons of Dorn do, but the -1 to hit represents the "spray and pray" that you do when you are shooting an area to try and hit a heavily concealed target.