Panzer Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) Yeah I totally agree with you on the midfield issue and I intend to include those thoughts in my feedback mail for GW once I tested the beta rule a bit (tho I already have a pretty good picture how things will go anyway) Melee is not the only problem. Once you are this close you are also in rapid fire range of the opponents shooty units and in range of their close ranged weapons. Edited January 22, 2019 by sfPanzer Dracos 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Using the axioms ideals I really want to load up a LRC with terminators and race it forward to whatever part of the board I want. Dump everything out and unload a ton of shots. That's a huge distraction unit that will soak up a lot of fire power while the tacticals pick off targets of opportunity in the backfield and claim objectives. Shadow Captain Vyper, Brother Quixote, GreyCrow and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I figured I would do some points breakdowns of Cost-Per-Shot, per unit, with the new Bolter Beta Rule, with a couple of "rules" for a more-accurate comparison - 1) Kept it to non-vehicles, 2) Avoided units that have more than one armament, as this skews the results, 3) Tried to stick with BS 3+, Sv 3+ marine units. Also note: In instances where a Sergeant is allowed up-jumped armament, I took a min-sized squad optimally equipped (Storm Bolter), and then regardless, it was Cost/Total Unit Shots = Cost Per Shot. The second section breaks the convention mentioned above to give context. 5.58 - Tactical Squad 4.75 - Scout Squad 4.50 - Company Veterans (Storm Shield + Storm Bolter) 4.00 - Company Veterans (Storm Bolter Only) 4.75 - Company Veterans on Bikes (Storm Bolter Only) 5.00 - Company Veterans on Bikes (Storm Shield + Storm Bolter) 4.44 - Bike Squad 4.44 - Scout Bikers 3.55 - Scout Bikers (In Shotgun Range) 3.89 - Boltstorm Aggressors (Single Tap) 1.95 - Boltstorm Aggressors (Double Tap) 8.50 - Intercessors (R:30", AP:-1) 8.00 - Sternguard (Special Issue Boltgun) 8.25 - Tactical Terminators (Power Fist + Storm Bolter) 5.96 - Redemptor Dread (Onslaught Loadout, valuing all shots equally - 26) 3.88 - Centurion Devastators (Heavy Bolter + Hurricane Bolter, valuing all shots equally - 54) 6.65 - Land Raider Crusader (Hurricane Bolters, Twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter, valuing all shots equally - 40) thewarriorhunter and Dracos 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 So what you're saying is I need some Aggressors... is that right? Seriously though great math hammer. I looked up the profiles for GW prime flyers since I don't have any and all of their weapons are HEAVY so they don't benefit at all from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 So what you're saying is I need some Aggressors... is that right? Seriously though great math hammer. I looked up the profiles for GW prime flyers since I don't have any and all of their weapons are HEAVY so they don't benefit at all from this. Aggressors indeed! Other realizations this math-hammer brought me: Dakka Cents are better than expected (with this analysis). The Redemptor looks great under this light. Company Veterans look very solid for this sort of lead-farming approach (especially on Bikes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 re company veterans in reference to the vigilus stratagems or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Sadly my bolt storm gauntlets are assault and 6” shorter than storm bolters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 re company veterans in reference to the vigilus stratagems or am I missing something? More just along the lines of the output against the durability. They have a huge threat range (38"). They have 2 wounds. They have a 3++. If you want a unit that can kite and punish hordes, these guys do it quite well. Sadly my bolt storm gauntlets are assault and 6” shorter than storm bolters Indeed. That being said, its not like the gauntlets needed a buff, they are already the best priced output in the codex, for that quality/quantity of fire. Dracos 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Sadly my bolt storm gauntlets are assault and 6” shorter than storm bolters Yeah but you can advance with them without getting a to-hit penalty and if you are stationary you still get to double tap them too. :P Dracos 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 True .... Aggressors are a first world problem :) Though l, I still contend they paired boltstorm gauntlets should get an additional attack in melee ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Corbin Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 How about a Rhino with a second Storm Bolter? That is now 8 shots at 24" all the time. SyNidus and Deliverance 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 How about a Rhino with a second Storm Bolter? That is now 8 shots at 24" all the time. While better, it's still a Rhino. Good news for the handful of marine armies that run Rhinos I suppose (World Eaters namely) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 Using the axioms ideals I really want to load up a LRC with terminators and race it forward to whatever part of the board I want. Dump everything out and unload a ton of shots. That's a huge distraction unit that will soak up a lot of fire power while the tacticals pick off targets of opportunity in the backfield and claim objectives. This is definitely worth it. I did the same trick with a Repulsor and 10 Reivers for the exact same purpose. Put pressure on infantry, kill off a few units that were out font position and force the enemy to bring his counters to deal with this. Works fantastic! The only place where you have to be careful is try to make it as hard for the enemy to deal with it, rather than rush and soak up all the damage. It’s a tanky build, so it benefits even more from survival tactical play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted February 10, 2019 Author Share Posted February 10, 2019 Further analysis and play test has shown me further insights that will be useful for you guys. 500pts worth of units, played together in supporting fire range, is about the point where the investment becomes efficient. Example : 500 pts of Scouts gives you about 40-45 models. That’s quite a massive distraction and an early objective grab! 500pts of Assault Marines is about 30 models. Dropping them behind cover and having them target the same units is both hard to deal with and quite a lot of pressure on infantry. I know spam may be boring and quite an investment. Given the ruleset of 40k though, and given how beautiful this looks on the table, I think this is totally worth it. Second insight : I don’t think Marines can deal effectively with all threats, especially véhicule spam. But what Marines do is excel at putting pressure. With significant threats to the infantry and choosing where we fight, we can make decisions for the enemy. It’s a bit like Chaos play, except you put pressure with range rather than pure melee. If we force the enemy’s hand, and make sure he deploys his counter units in a way that is advantageous to us, then we get a headstart. In that framework, distractions work very well. Try for one game a build where you aim for total infantry superiority to play on objectives. Use your units to put threats on the enemy infantry while making them hard to deal with. Even if that means avoiding fights, there is value in a Damocles sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 http://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/0970142b24dce630604a2789f121bfee.jpg I'm going to wait until Wave 2 of the Primaris rules are released but I can really see building list in the future with 85/170 and a couple CP held in reserve. I've never been comfortable with my list ignoring the psychic phase up til now. With the new Vanguard Librarians and possibility to add a Culexus I'm hoping for some real competitive possibilities. Being able to pick between the four seems to good to not take a deep look into. Just wish the models weren't so damn dark and grim ;) Race Bannon, Brother Quixote, duz_ and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 And I just sold the Execution Force box that I'd been sitting on for a couple years... Oh well. I have a backlog to get through... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I'm thinking one (maybe two) Vindicare, one Culexus, and an Eversor. Vindy was always my favorite but hoping rules for the Eliminators are good enough I might just need one for purpose of cool. The other assassin models don't grab me the same way especially Callidus, meh. Honestly I'l be looking for conversion ideas for each of them, so if anyone sees some give me a ping please :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I found this 3rd part vindicare they other day. If I decide to add one I might go with this model. https://www.heresylab.com/store/miniatures/32mm/21-warhammer-40k-heresylab-female-kill-team-vindicare-assassin/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Those are pretty neat let us know how they go! :) Downside with crouching poses like that is it sucks for LoS You might want to put them on an elevated base so they can see out of windows! :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Like a flying base decorated like an Imperial pillar :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 TWH Just looking at that mini a bit closer It says its 32mm scale which is not what 40k is... its slightly larger You might wanna see some comparisons first before finding out the assassin is Gravis armour sized... :ermm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 thewarriorhunter @ You rock my man. Those are exactly what I remember seeing a while back. I'd forgotten the site. Duz @ I'll let you know .... I just purchased the counts as Vindicare and Culexus. Amusingly they have a new Vindicare coming out in March perched on top of column. I'll probably model mine in a similar manner with GW scenery. duz_ 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Duz @ I'll let you know .... I just purchased the counts as Vindicare and Culexus. Amusingly they have a new Vindicare coming out in March perched on top of column. I'll probably model mine in a similar manner with GW scenery. Awesome curious to see apparently there aren't too many alternate options out there Do you have a link for this new one? Dracos 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 https://www.heresylab.com/ It's in the banner of the homepage of the link thewarriorhunter provided :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewarriorhunter Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Sweet, please post some photos for scale comparison. I'm not a fan of the GW vindicare and if I ever get around to adding an assassin I'll probably consider this one. I also like the knives on the leg because that fulfills my lore-role for each marine having their own sicai that they fashioned after initiation into the brotherhood of the Spectra Sicarii. duz_ 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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