Dreadwing

[Kilofix]

Is anyone reading Dreadwing?

 

I just started myself, so nothing to add yet, but soon.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

It was pretty good. I was pleasantly surprised at the existence of parentheses in the body of the novella, seems like those are rare as heck in BL novels. 

[DarkChaplain]

Am on chapter two myself, and it's presenting an interesting look at the Legion so far. There seems to be a lot more focus on the secrecy of the Dark Angels than in many previous stories, too. I can't wait to see where it goes from here.

[nagashnee]

Was a good read. Tho i feel sorry for DA fans. Captain teamkillers kill streak goes ever on.

[hopkins]

a very good book. something i was not expecting from that author, tackling that legion

it checked everything i wanted from a 1st legion HH story. even tied into the gav thorpe 40k unforgiven trilogy

[DarkChaplain]

I'm on chapter three now, and have to say that entire second chapter was incredibly well done. This is the first time I've felt that the ForgeWorld lore about the Wings and the Hexagrammaton really was nailed by an author. Angels of Caliban obviously gave a slice of it, but this here showcases actual Legion politics and the convoluted nature of the Dark Angels as a whole. Judging by things so far, around a third into the book, I can't help but feel sad that Guymer didn't get to write a full novel. Then again, the pace has been great so far, with no excess fat.

[Silent Observant]

I liked from that it went into more detail of how the wings interact, especially in the council meetings. It was interesting to see the selection of individuals into each of the wings, as per the dark angels, is done behind each others back, but it is understood to be so. I liked that even though they do everything in secret and can be seen as against each other, there is this understanding and brotherhood between the voted lieutenants even if they don't see eye to eye with each other ideologies. Also got to see what the fire wing was all about and how they are integrated in the legion as a whole, finally gives us an idea of what the dark angels were doing, after they ran out of homeworlds to burn.

[Galloway]

Really enjoyed this one as well, nice job using Holguin and Redloss to illustrate different parts of the 30k DA nature, and how those characteristics (things like knightly brotherhood, love of secrets, self-reliance) interact with the events of the HH to lead to the strengths and weakness of 40k DA.

 

Question for those who have read it all

What's up at the end with the Lion saying the Astronomicon has gone dark, and that's why they're going to go burn the galaxy down (so Horus has nothing to rule)? More specifically, I get why if the Astronomicon is gone, the Lion would think Horus has already won, and there's nothing for them at Terra, but why does he think (or assert) that it's gone? Did I miss something post-Ruinstorm? Is Tuchulcha obscuring it? Is he lying (and if so, why)? Seems like that has the possibility to (re)open all kinds of possibilities about the Lion's true loyalty...

 

Also, very interesting to see the continued repercussions of Nemiel's death, and how that how it has permanently altered the relationship between the DA and the Lion.

 

[Kelborn]

Sounds very good.

 

Any idea if these novellas will be released in German, as well?

[Phoebus]

Dreadwing alternates between the very good and the predictably — by now — contrived.

 

Fair warning: I don’t think there are any real spoilers here. Nonetheless, there are indications as to the future course of actions the Lion and the Dark Angels will undertake in the future. Tread carefully.

 

The interactions between the various characters are, for the most part, very well-written. The relationship between Farith Redloss and Holguin, in particular, is a masterstroke. David Guymer succeeded where many before him have failed in this series: he portrayed two men who both want what is best for their master and their legion, and though both have compelling motivations and reasoning are nonetheless at odds.

 

Guymer also does quite well in conveying more of the culture of the Dark Angels. He builds on what came before, providing some welcome flavor and insight without being over the top about it. With the exception of one or two instances, he succeeds in breathing added life in his cast of characters — as opposed to saddling them with tropes.

 

The action, too, is, for the most part, quite well done. Too often, Black Library combat sequences are hampered with pointless, almost contradicting details that detract from the immersion: unnumbered masses charging into combat, for example, and the author letting you know that three Space Marines die in an initial salvo. Guymer opts for a cinematic feel, both when his Dark Angels enter personal combat and on the macro scale of void warfare. He, too, however, is not immune to forcing the story where he needs it go without consideration for established concepts. Should a Gloriana-class flagship, for example, need worry about being destroyed by a heavy cruiser — even one specialized for close-range combat? Probably not, but in his need to introduce tension — and there’s nothing wrong with the Invincible Reason being in danger — Guymer succumbs to the trap of forcing it.

 

Unfortunately, that author’s fiat becomes more and more prominent as we reach the climactic and concluding chapters of Dreadwing. While the Lion’s intentions remain occluded from us, the conflict within the Dark Angels’ ranks is understandable and even welcome as plots go. As more details emerge, though, the questions raise are increasingly unsatisfactory... and the answers are even worse. For example, the Ruinstorm has ended and the Astropaths attached to the Lion’s fleet are inundated with messages from the larger galaxy. The question of the fates of long-missing Corswain and Caliban itself are raised more than once, but the idea of sending word to them is not even raised. And ...

 

... why does no one attempt to verify the disconcerting news that the Astronomican is no longer working?

 

... Again, no answer is given.

 

Depressingly, the Lion’s decisions at the end of the novella — regarding allies and the strategy he is to pursue — are nods to the worst of the Dark Angels plot lines from the Heresy. Guymer initially handles the primarch deftly. Too often, depictions of the Emperor’s sons suffer from a lack of their purported genius but an excess of their flaws. There is something Homeric in the Lion’s prolonged absence early in the novella — not unlike Achilles brooding in anger while his Achaean allies suffer against the Trojans. As the story goes on, though, Guymer opts for betrayals from the past to dictate the primarch’s decisions, even when the plainly don’t suit the situation. Likewise, despite the events of Ruinstorm disabusing the Lion of the ridiculous assumptions that informed the Imperium Secundus storyline (that, absent of knowledge to the contrary, it had to be assumed the Emperor was dead), by the end of Dreadwing we’re right back to square one.

 

Overall, Dreadwing is an ambitious effort by David Guymer. It’s by no means integral to the Heresy storyline, though it certainly offers insight regarding important actions during that era — and the fate of the Traitor Homeworlds, as well. It’s a largely enjoyable storyline for the most part, but suffers from a disappointing end. Its worst enemy is a key flaw of the series itself: questionable motivations being forced through to get the story to the conclusion. Like the Horus Heresy, Dreadwing could have gotten to its conclusion with far less need for mental gymnastics. Alas, it was not to be.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Phoebus

[b1soul]

At the end of Great Wolf, the Lion was wracked with the shame of being absent and unable to aid the Emperor. He wanted him and Russ to kill each other as a form of penitence.

 

How does that square with a Lion who doesn't even bother to try verifying that the astronomican (and the Emperor) are indeed no more?

Edited November 15, 2018 by b1soul

[Fedor]

This whole idea of Lion going to destroy the traitor homeworlds was something i found interesting enough, but that didn't really need to be there. It would have been easier and fit the Lion's character even better to just have him try and get through to Terra with the Blood Angels but fail and get pushed away. Then you can easily have him make another attempt and get there late, possibly after running into the remnants of the Wolves (and Raven Guard too).

 

I guess we'll just have to wait and see where the astronomican development goes as it doesn't sound like this is the wrap up for the Dark Angels HH presence i expected it was going to be.

[b1soul]

If the Traitors have won the galactic civil war...destroying Traitor homeworlds seems like a rather ineffectual, mostly symbolic, gesture. Though perhaps it might be the only blow the DA would be able to strike under the circumstances.

[Laughingman]

If the Traitors have won the galactic civil war...destroying Traitor homeworlds seems like a rather ineffectual, mostly symbolic, gesture. Though perhaps it might be the only blow the DA would be able to strike under the circumstances.

 

The probable logic in the choice being, "you may win at Terra, but I will insure that you rule over a kingdom of ashes." On a more practical level Mortarion and Fulgrim appeared to be the end of the crusade recruit almost exclusively from their homeworld's, so denying their legions their preferred recruitment grounds had some tactical merit..

[hopkins]

If the Traitors have won the galactic civil war...destroying Traitor homeworlds seems like a rather ineffectual, mostly symbolic, gesture. Though perhaps it might be the only blow the DA would be able to strike under the circumstances.

 

at least he's getting a taste for blowing up traitor homeworlds ...

[Phoebus]

It’s just a forced storyline, period, and requires the reader to accept obvious contradictions in what is being presented. Once more, the Lion’s Special Primarch Flaw is his penchant to Always Make The Wrong Choice.

[Indefragable]

 

If the Traitors have won the galactic civil war...destroying Traitor homeworlds seems like a rather ineffectual, mostly symbolic, gesture. Though perhaps it might be the only blow the DA would be able to strike under the circumstances.

 

The probable logic in the choice being, "you may win at Terra, but I will insure that you rule over a kingdom of ashes." On a more practical level Mortarion and Fulgrim appeared to be the end of the crusade recruit almost exclusively from their homeworld's, so denying their legions their preferred recruitment grounds had some tactical merit..

 

 

If I recall the final chapters of Ruinstorm correctly, Guilliman, the Lion, and Sanguinius talk about how symbols are more than symbols to chaos/the warp...blowing up a chaos planet actually helped physically lift the ruinstorm itself. Why runes and stuff are so important to safely interacting with the warp.

 

The Lion then extends that logic to the point of "if our enemies are allied with creatures from the warp, and creatures from the warp are harmed by symbolic gestures, then let's paint a giant " you" on some virus bombs and lob them at the traitor homeworlds." RG and Sangy agree since it could materially affect the daemonic entities that the traitors draw so much strength from.

 

It kinda made sense at the time, I guess.

 

Hidden Content

Also, $10 says the Dreadwing is why Caliban became a mobile home.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Indefragable

[Phoebus]

So, without spoiling much, Indefragable, let’s just say that Dreadwing doesn’t care much for what the Loyalist primarchs think at the end of Ruinstorm.

 

In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Horus and the Traitor Legions couldn’t care less what the Lion does with their homeworlds.

[DarkChaplain]

Which isn't surprising at all, considering Fulgrim, Mortarion and Horus at that point in time - none of which the Triumvirate of Imperium Secundus had actual contact with for years at that point.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So, without spoiling much, Indefragable, let’s just say that Dreadwing doesn’t care much for what the Loyalist primarchs think at the end of Ruinstorm.

 

In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Horus and the Traitor Legions couldn’t care less what the Lion does with their homeworlds.

 

Without having read Dreadwing, but again building off Ruinstorm,

 

the symbology still remains that these are the homeworlds, so Horus may not care that Cthonia is not a floating cloud of rubble, but the Warp does.

[Kinstryfe]

I haven't read it yet, but I will say that from reading what's been posted, it is nice that it answers the old question of "Why are most of the loyalist Primarchs' homeworlds still around while the Traitors' homeworlds are gone." I quite like knowing who to thank or blame for that.

[Phoebus]

 

 

So, without spoiling much, Indefragable, let’s just say that Dreadwing doesn’t care much for what the Loyalist primarchs think at the end of Ruinstorm.

 

In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Horus and the Traitor Legions couldn’t care less what the Lion does with their homeworlds.

Without having read Dreadwing, but again building off Ruinstorm,

 

the symbology still remains that these are the homeworlds, so Horus may not care that Cthonia is not a floating cloud of rubble, but the Warp does.

Potentially, in the long-term scheme of things, but where immediate events and concerns are concerned ...

 

... there’s no evidence of that is given in Dreadwing. More to the point, the Lion’s real reason for these attacks is to bleed the Traitors and force them to divert forces from the attack on Terra — something that is obviously not happening.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Phoebus

[DarkChaplain]

Being finished with it now myself, I have a few different takeaways from the way things were handled. My biggest, and really, only relevant complaint about the story is that it was just a novella rather than at least a short novel like, say, Tallarn: Ironclad, Sons of the Forge or the Betrayal at Calth duology.

 

What hasn't really been discussed...

It has been weeks if not months since the Astronomican has gone dark. This isn't just a flicker, it's gone. The astropaths in charge of the fleet and the Lion, as well as Stenius, are basically the only ones who could verify this - and they have. There is no reason to doubt the Lion's statement about the Astronomican having gone out.

I don't understand why the point was being raised earlier that "nobody tried to verify this info" when it's literally been the case for multiple extermination targets.

 

Of course, we don't know why the Astronomican has gone out just yet. We cannot be entirely certain of when this is set in relation to the Siege events themselves. It might be that Horus's forces are blackening it out, it may be that the Emperor cannot maintain his seat on the Throne due to events in the Palace. It may, indeed, be Tuchulcha's doing. We don't know yet. But that says nothing about the validity of the Lion's words.

 

And then there's the point that nobody has brought up yet - the Lion is starting to doubt even more, to the point of buying into Curze's words. Ruinstorm had him defiant and trying to reject Curze's visions, and by extension Sanguinius's, but the events around Davin have obviously shaken his resolve. The Invincible Reason? Don't make me laugh. The Lion does not want confirmation of his own failure, and we already know that by the point he reaches Terra, it breaks him. He is employing a scorched earth strategy thinking it is all he has left.

 

Now, why does he not contact Caliban? Because of Luther. The novella even directly states that the Lion has basically prohibited even just using the name, and the characters who do name him in his presence get very tense reactions out of him. Frankly, I was expecting the Lion executing either Holguin or Redloss in that final confrontation. There are multiple instances throughout regarding Luther, and the bitterness the Lion still holds over Sarosh. Holguin even calls him out on not solving the problem like men, and laments that the Legion is so riven by secrecy and lies, of bitter hearts unable to open up and clear the air.

 

Even that penultimate scene with Redloss in his chambers alludes to that - he wishes he could open up to Holguin about the Watchers visiting him - which would clear up a lot right away, because we know Holguin had similar experiences. There's a powerful scene with the two of them having their eyes meet and communicate a deep understanding, but there are things that have to be spoken aloud, which neither of them is able to do. And that's basically the core of the Dark Angels' problems. Not the inherent secrecy, no, but the inability to just let their pride drop for a moment to have a real, honest talk for five minutes to not let wounds fester.

 

We also know from as far back as The Lion that El Jonson himself is in touch with the Watchers and has some sort of insight on Caliban steering towards catastrophe. They've also advised him against using Tuchulcha - in the epilogue making the point that him using the daemon engine strengthens the Orouboros. The Lion, at this point, likely doesn't believe in Caliban as a home anymore, and considers it lost. He is too proud to ever concede his own mistakes to his adopted father, and sending Corswain was about as far as he was willing to go - he sent him to pick up the new recruits only, as far as I remember.

 

At this point, though, I am even more convinced that either Holguin or Redloss will be the present-day Cypher. Holguin was already entrusted with the Lion Sword at the end of Angels of Caliban, and he is obviously critical of the Lion's choices. He, above all else, wishes to head to Terra and join the Siege, which might have already been lost. He, above all else, sees the rift within the Legion, and between Lion El Jonson and Sar Luther, and has the balls to speak his mind on it. He may be at odds with Redloss about the direction the Legion should take, but I also feel that Redloss is coming around to it all. They both agree they should head back to Caliban and then to Terra, by the end.

 

One, or both, are headed for open defiance of the Lion. There is big potential here for Holguin siding with Luther during the events at Caliban. There is also a chance for Holguin to be executed and, with that shock, Redloss taking up the mantle of Cypher, and the Lion Sword, to fulfill some sort of legacy. Seeing how Redloss is proficient with basically any type of weapon, he could well become a gunslinger, and Holguin makes the conscious decision to leave his sword, a knight's weapon, behind, to burn along with his trust in the Lion.

 

There are many interesting implications here, both for the future and past stories. I feel Guymer has hit it out of the park with this one. The only issue, again, is that it wasn't longer. Seeing how well he did, it deserved to be. I frankly hope that he gets a chance at something else Dark Angels related in the future.

[Phoebus]

...

What hasn't really been discussed...

It has been weeks if not months since the Astronomican has gone dark. This isn't just a flicker, it's gone. The astropaths in charge of the fleet and the Lion, as well as Stenius, are basically the only ones who could verify this - and they have. There is no reason to doubt the Lion's statement about the Astronomican having gone out.

I don't understand why the point was being raised earlier that "nobody tried to verify this info" when it's literally been the case for multiple extermination targets.

It’s not quite as simple as that. Also, I’m not sure your interpretation of those events is right.

 

The first indication of the timeline relative to other events is given at the strategy meeting shown in Chapter 2. We don’t know when the Ruinstorm dissipated exactly, but Vazheth Licinia announces a number of events as breaking news of sorts. Guilliman’s successes against the Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors is one of those; the fall of Beta-Garmon is another. The conquest of Luth Tyre is referenced as occurring “eight weeks” prior to that meeting.

 

By contrast, the Astronomican isn’t referenced until the very end of Dreadwing. We don’t know what the transit time between Barbarus and Thagria is, but that’s neither here nor there; the real issue is the Lion’s assumption that the Astronomican going out must mean that Terra has fallen. The Lion is the one individual in the entire galaxy with a Deux Ex Machina device that allows him to come and go throughout the galaxy as he pleases, but he employs it only when it suits the author. He used Tuchulcha to get through the Ruinstorm to Ultramar, but once there opted to assume Terra had fallen rather than investigate the truth.

 

's the point that nobody has brought up yet - the Lion is starting to doubt even more, to the point of buying into Curze's words. Ruinstorm had him defiant and trying to reject Curze's visions, and by extension Sanguinius's, but the events around Davin have obviously shaken his resolve. The Invincible Reason? Don't make me laugh. The Lion does not want confirmation of his own failure, and we already know that by the point he reaches Terra, it breaks him. He is employing a scorched earth strategy thinking it is all he has left.

Angels of Caliban ends with the Lion using Curze’s prophecies to convince Guilliman and Sanguinius that the Emperor must be alive. Ruinstorm ends with Guilliman and the Lion agreeing to enact a strategy meant to get Sanguinius to Terra. The Lion suddenly using Curze’s same prophecies to justify his assumptions puts us right back to where we were with The Unremembered Empire.

 

This isn’t just lazy writing; it’s lazy riding on the coat-tails of even lazier writing. It was bad enough that Curze’s prophecies were needed for the triumvirate to be spurred to action. Within the context of their shared belief, Sanguinius jettisoning Curze into space was downright idiotic. They had convinced themselves that a prophesied future couldn’t be altered, and that the Emperor couldn’t be dead because he hasn’t executed Curze yet. By abandoning Curze, they rid themselves of the one way they could theoretically determine whether or not the Emperor was dead!

 

Now, why does he not contact Caliban? Because of Luther. The novella even directly states that the Lion has basically prohibited even just using the name, and the characters who do name him in his presence get very tense reactions out of him.

I think we’re arguing different points here. I wouldn’t say the Lion doesn’t have a reason behind this unwillingness to contact Caliban. I’m just saying it’s a terrible one. The relationship between the Lion and Luther (or the lack of one) as shown in the Dark Angels Heresy novels is one of the most poorly conceived ideas of the series. The way it has been used to get us to this point has been just as contrived.

 

We also know from as far back as The Lion that El Jonson himself is in touch with the Watchers and has some sort of insight on Caliban steering towards catastrophe. They've also advised him against using Tuchulcha - in the epilogue making the point that him using the daemon engine strengthens the Orouboros. The Lion, at this point, likely doesn't believe in Caliban as a home anymore, and considers it lost. He is too proud to ever concede his own mistakes to his adopted father, and sending Corswain was about as far as he was willing to go - he sent him to pick up the new recruits only, as far as I remember.

Have the Watchers warned the Lion? More to the point, if the Lion had given up on Caliban, the use of Tuchulcha strengthening Ourobouros wouldn’t be a point of concern. Even if he did care about his adopted homeworld, though, what exactly is the threshold of using the warp engine? He can afford to jeopardize Caliban to investigate Guilliman’s activities but won’t do so to confirm the fate of the Imperium?

 

Again, though, I think the weakest parts of Guymer’s novella are not so much the fault of his writing as they are due to the very flawed foundation he’s forced to write on. The treatment of the Dark Angels has suffered from a combination of highly suspect decision-making on the part of their chief characters and the writing team’s decision to conceal the most important matters under almost total secrecy.

[bluntblade]

I'd still like to know if anyone's going to take up the baton of the Lutheran Loyalists from Alaxxes and run with them.