Dreadwing

[Nashnir]

I wonder how they are going to finish the Caliban arc. I'm guessing it will get its own book rather than show up at the end of the siege series, but under what series heading?.

 

I believe it may be after or during the series that will cover the Scouring of the traitors and their flight towards The Eye.

 

We know the Lion arrives on Terra. So, we may get some awesome battles between the First Legion Hexagrammaton against the entirety of the traitors as they escape and the the Legion makes its way towards Terra. That is my hope.

 

What I am worried for the moment is how they are going to explain the decision to head towards Terra.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Nashnir

[carlisimo]

I've literally only read the first part of the first chapter of this book and the word usage is already peeing me off in the space of 200 or less word.

 

Words I don't have a clue about the meaning of:

Bocage

Bowering

Casemate

Portieres

 

This leaves two options - learn the meaning words and make reading a chore - or - just keep reading and accept that I don't exactly get it. Well, you might say that you have this choice anytime you read a book with a word in you don't understand and that is true. But a smattering of them is just annoying.

 

What a frustrating start to a book that has a great blurb. It removes the pleasure.

Bocage and casemate are words strongly associated with WWII tank warfare. I can see how they’d be unusual to anyone who hasn’t read up much on that, but I think it’s reasonable to use them in the 40k universe.

 

Bocage is terrain common in Northern France consisting of fields separated by hedges - those hedges essentially meant that every encounter happened at short range. It’s also the reason Rhinos and Land Raiders have those fork-like plows in front; they’re copies of the hedgecutters attached to Allied tanks to get through them, and American soldiers nicknamed those tanks “Rhinos” because of their spiky noses.

 

A casemate is the fixed, enclosed upper hull of an armored vehicle that doesn’t have a rotating turret, like the box on a WWII Elefant or Jagdtiger.

 

Bowering = shading. Easily the rarest word on your list.

 

Portieres are door curtains.

Edited April 10, 2019 by carlisimo

[Moonreaper666]

My guess is that the Sentient Warp Engine tells the Lion bits and pieces of the future and tells him to hide one of the Engine parts on Caliban. Because of these prophecies, the Lion heads straight for Terra

 

Without the Sentient Engine, the Dark Angels would have been stuck fighting the Night Lords (and their Traitor Titan Legion) until the Great Scouring

 

Had the Night Lords or Death Guard gain the Sentient Warp Engine the Traitors would have won

[DarkChaplain]

My guess is that the Sentient Warp Engine tells the Lion bits and pieces of the future and tells him to hide one of the Engine parts on Caliban. Because of these prophecies, the Lion heads straight for Terra

Nah. That is not the case. Tuchulcha is very selective and insidious about what it tells the Lion. One of the parts is already on Caliban to begin with - the Ouroboros has been on Caliban all along.

 

The Lion also doesn't head "straight to Terra" until after he meets up with Russ, which likely will coincide with a flicker of the Astronomican or somesuch. Right now, the Lion is more or less convinced that Terra is a lost cause and scorched earth strategies in retaliation are all that's left to him, because the Astronomican can't reach his fleet anymore. Bring it back to cast doubts again and he'll change his tune.

 

Without the Sentient Engine, the Dark Angels would have been stuck fighting the Night Lords (and their Traitor Titan Legion) until the Great Scouring

 

Had the Night Lords or Death Guard gain the Sentient Warp Engine the Traitors would have won

 

[Citation Needed.]

 

The Dark Angels spent a good while playing cat and mouse with the Night Lords, sure, but it's not like the Lion never caught up with Curze, or that the leadership of the Night Lords was actually stable.

And... why are you so certain that the "Traitors would have won" if they had gotten ahold of Tuchulcha? The Night Lords didn't know or care about it, for one. Calas Typhon did, but The Lion shows that he was sloppy about retrieving it. Typhon also had years left to ruminate before even reuniting with his Legion, and it is unlikely he would've shared the secrets of Tuchulcha with the traitors at large. It may have empowered parts of the Death Guard, but certainly not spelled victory for the Traitor Legions just willy nilly. Especially not since Tuchulcha has its own quirks.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think it's because in savage weapons, both the lion and corswain state the crusade is effectively in a stalemate. Neither side could make substantial gains; the lion states it won't end until either him or curze is dead. He also states that he's never caught curze; every ambush he escapes from and that it had never been a "hunt". At that point, before the night lords were ambushed via the engine and curze put in a coma, the VIIIth was shown to be highly competent in the Thramas crusade.

[Phoebus]

What “Savage Weapons” explicitly states is that the Night Lords used the vastness of Thramas to elude the Dark Angels as needed, launching raids against undefended worlds and ambushes as able. The Night Lords weren’t trying to make gains against the Dark Angels; they were trying to keep them occupied and thus out of the larger war.

[Moonreaper666]

What “Savage Weapons” explicitly states is that the Night Lords used the vastness of Thramas to elude the Dark Angels as needed, launching raids against undefended worlds and ambushes as able. The Night Lords weren’t trying to make gains against the Dark Angels; they were trying to keep them occupied and thus out of the larger war.

Without the Engine, the Dark Angels would have been stuck chasing the Night Lords for all eternity. Blood Angels and Ultramarines would have stayed in Ultramar until Terra blows up and the Traitors then focus on conquering Ultramar

[b1soul]

The NL were competent at delaying the DA, but that was about the best they could do

[SkimaskMohawk]

And being in a deadlock was the best the da could do as well, as per the lion in savage weapons

[Darkwrath121]

Unless I'm blind, I haven't seen anyone else mention this in this thread:

 

For the curious, the astronomican disappeared as a result of events of Titandeath. That's presumably what's stranding the Wolves and Angels out in the wider galaxy. I foresee a rush for Terra once the light returns.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Darkwrath121

[DarkChaplain]

Yep, that was another instance where people got upset over something that was going to be covered in detail elsewhere. There's no reason for the Lion to lie about it going out or anything, or Tuchulcha lying, when we can see the reasons in a main series novel soon after.

[b1soul]

What I was saying was that in a full-scale engagement (no running by the NL), the DA would easily win. The job of the NL was to make the DA chase them around

[Moonreaper666]

What I was saying was that in a full-scale engagement (no running by the NL), the DA would easily win. The job of the NL was to make the DA chase them around

Without the element of surprise, thanks to the Tulchuca Warp Engine, the DA would have gotten a Pyrrhic Victory against the NL.

 

Only the TS can be crippled beyond recovery in just one battle. It usually takes a few crippling battles to render a Legion ineffective (Looking at you Space Wolves)

 

Is it worth it for the DA to fight an all-out battle with the NL without the Tulchucha Engine?

[SkimaskMohawk]

What I was saying was that in a full-scale engagement (no running by the NL), the DA would easily win. The job of the NL was to make the DA chase them around

There's literally no basis for that statement.

[b1soul]

By the time of the Heresy, they're a legion of cowards who recruit low-quality dregs. Case in point is how the Ultras spank them in Pharos

[SkimaskMohawk]

Context is pretty important.

 

In pharos, skraivok's company takes a beating for sure. They're inept and fractious. And that's because skraivok willingly took in the low quality guys and changed the company's training regime to accommodate the dregs being sent. Skraivok also didn't really have advantage of a rigid command structure; he didn't really want the tasks Krukesh gave him and his guys didn't want tasks he gave to them. Everyone dragged their feet as a result, because there wasn't a lot of enforcement going down.

 

Thramas was a legion engagement. We don't know how far the legion was corrupted by sub-par recruits, but we do know sevetar enforced the chain of command ruthlessly with the atrementar up until he was captured. The other things we know, was that the dark angels and the Lion saw it as a stalemate as of savage weapons. And not in the sense that they just couldn't catch the night lords;

 

"Neither side gave ground without taking it back elsewhere. Neither side charged without leaving a vulnerable flank open to assault. Neither Legion lost a battle when their progenitors led them to war."

 

"‘Two years of void skirmishes, two years of planetary sieges, two years of global invasions and worldwide retreats, orbital assault and shipboard evacuation...'"

 

"For every victory we claim, Curze gifts us with a loss in return. It is not a hunt, Alajos. If a primarch does not fall, this will be war without end."

The first is from corswain, the rest are from the lion. We can see that the Lion doesn't see it as a hunt, that it's a stalemate with a variety of theatres. Obviously the Night Lords are competent when operating at a macro scale, with high command and the primarch present, and enforcement of orders.

[bluntblade]

There is talk in Prince of Crows to the effect that the Kyroptera used to "speak with one voice." Conversely, FW fluff mentions or implies that some NL officers were done in by their brothers on Isstvan V, so there's a suggestion that the degeneration was on its way up the hierarchy but hadn't reached the commanding heights.

[Marshal Rohr]

It would make sense the Pharos, post-Thramas, shows a more degenerated legion than we will see in Book 9, which is their last true ride out as a cohesive fighting force.

[bluntblade]

Indeed, it's a gradual rot Edited May 21, 2019 by bluntblade

[Kelborn]

I fully agree.

Without the leadership of both Curze and Sev, the Legion would quickly degenerate into several warbands of murderers and psychopaths.

[rendingon1+]

Context is pretty important.

 

In pharos, skraivok's company takes a beating for sure. They're inept and fractious. And that's because skraivok willingly took in the low quality guys and changed the company's training regime to accommodate the dregs being sent. Skraivok also didn't really have advantage of a rigid command structure; he didn't really want the tasks Krukesh gave him and his guys didn't want tasks he gave to them. Everyone dragged their feet as a result, because there wasn't a lot of enforcement going down.

 

Thramas was a legion engagement. We don't know how far the legion was corrupted by sub-par recruits, but we do know sevetar enforced the chain of command ruthlessly with the atrementar up until he was captured. The other things we know, was that the dark angels and the Lion saw it as a stalemate as of savage weapons. And not in the sense that they just couldn't catch the night lord

 

 

 

I actually disagree. Corrupted neophytes intake was one of main reasons Nostramo went exterminatused. Skraivok's lot were not singular instance, majority of the legion was like that, otherwise Skraivok's company would be dealt with and that's it. I understand that in Konrad Kurze, Haley (admirably and skillfully)  tries to justify and  his big mistake made in Pharos but it still doesn't work for me, sorry.

 

And I would wait for HH: Book 9 to see more specific details of Thramas campaign, see actual Legion objectives, progress, forces involved etc. I hope it will be done convincingly, because now it's not. Most fractious legion with major discipline problems, led by insane primarch does not sound good when pitted vs 1st. So I guess it must be someting more to it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So, in the primarch book, sevetar wanted to take corrective action, but curze stops him. That's why none of them were dealt with, and yes I understand it's more than just his, but his has the most plausible reason of being the worst.

 

And nostramo was destroyed because it was corrupt; the neophytes were a symptom of it.

 

It doesn't actually seem like you've read the book.

[rendingon1+]

Yes I've read it

 

Recruiting Masters are being corrupted and send human junk instead of material meeting recruiting parameters. Skraivok (not astartes) makes a coup, everything reverts to the old ways but looks good on paper since imperial tithe is paid.

And according to book when Cure and Sevatar talk about neophytes, I don't recall they say Skraivok is the main perpetrator, only that it became norm. As for stopping Sevatar from taking actions, there is a scene when Legion command and Curze watches video of marine "hunting" ship's crew and Curze demands censure and discipline reinstatemnent. Not very logical.

Edited May 22, 2019 by rendingon1+

[SkimaskMohawk]

No one says skraivok is the main perpetrator, but he;

 

1. Has a direct tie to the lead of the coup

2. Knowingly made arrangements to receive the dregs

3. Modified his companies training plan to accommodate these recruits.

 

This was directly after the coup. It was sporadic before.