Codex: Lost and the Damned?

[Plasmablasts]

With recent releases (especially Kill Team: Rogue Trader and Blackstone Fortress), there are more grounds now to speculate on a non-Astartes, non-Daemons Chaos Codex. I thought it could interesting to start a speculation thread, considering what we’ve seen, about what might feature in such a Codex.

 

We already have:

 

Cultists

Tzaangors

Poxwalkers

 

From KT:RT:

 

Nightmare hulks (big mutants)

Vox-Shamblers

Glitchlings

A variety of swarm-like creatures

 

From BSF:

 

Rogue Psykers

Traitor Guardsmen

Beastmen

Negavolt Cultists

 

So, a few of my thoughts:

 

I’m not sure if Tzaangors and Poxwalkers will be included or remain just in their current codices.

 

Traitor Guard and Cultists seem to overlap. Possible solutions could be:

 

- they merge: as long as there is an option for a heavy stubber, that’s easy enough;

 

- they remain separate with similar profiles, but Cultists get larger units and Chaos marks, while TG get access to better kit and Regimental Doctrines;

 

- Cultists become a Conscripts equivalent.

 

The Vox-Shamblers and Glitchlings look like variants of Poxwalkers and Nurglings respectively, so I don’t expect to see them as separate units.

 

Other units we might see:

 

Characters:

- a leader/Traitor General

- a priest/demagogue

- a Dark Mechanicum magos

- a Beastman Champion?

 

Some access to Astra Militarum vehicles.

 

Some weirder Dark Mechanicum warmachines (like stalk tanks for example).

 

In terms of subfaction keywords, they could use Regimental Doctrines but those wouldn’t seem to fit other elements like the Beastmen or Dark Mechanicum units. The only keywords I could see being more widely applicable would be god-specific marks.

 

In terms of style of play, it would be logical for it to overlap with Astra Militarum but probably with a greater assault and melee capability.

 

Any thoughts?

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I think, assuming a release is planned, it will be a more aggressive Chaos version of the Astra Militarum just like Chaos Space Marines are more aggressive in playstyle than Imperial Space Marines.

[Lord Marshal]

I could see them slotting Questor Traitoris in, the same way the Adeptus Mechanicum codex featured Questor Mechanicus houses, despite there having been a separate Imperial Knights 'dex releasing in the future. Same goes for Dark Mechanicum content.

 

Goliath Truck/Rockgrinder from GSC could make an appearance. 

 

Cultists/Traitor Guardsmen could overlap in the same way Neophyte Hybrids have a kit for representing them as civilian miners and converted Cadians. Failing that, they could be separate units with differing equipment - Guardsmen could take HWT for example - and stratagems. 

 

I think we'll get God-specific cults rather than Regimental Doctrines, essentially the Covenants from Renegades & Heretics.

 

My guess is they'll put far more emphasis on Mutants rather than Spiky!Guard to prevent too much overlap with Guard and GSC. 

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I think they will want to overlap with Guard and Genestealer Cults. It's less work for them. They just have to make transfer sheets instead of sculpting different models and can just keep selling their current Astra Militarum and Genestealer Cults vehicles. It's low effort, high profit, and they can focus more time on designing the codex.

[Nemerax]

I love speculating about this, since I would love to become real.

 

Two things to note first:

 

1. So far GW never brought rules in a codex for units that they do not sell right now. So I do not expect Mutants to be in, despite they could easily make an upgrade sprue, the times of GW encouraging conversions and kitbashing are over. Almost everything is snap fit now.

 

2. Rules wise they have always recycled stuff that was already there in this edition. That said, the codex will have altered already existing rules inside. So expect some kind of a merged CSM and Astra Militarum Codex, a bit oriented at Genestealers hopefully with civilian stuff. I assume we will get some kind of regimental doctrines and the chaos sigils will work similar to those of the CSM. I do not expect them to approach the matter the way FW did.

 

I am relatively certain it will contain these units:

 

As HQ choices:

Renegade Commander

Rogue Psyker 

Aspiring CSM Champion

 

Elites:

Disciples more like the Imperial Veterans

Renegade Scions

Negavolt Cultists

Ogryns

Ratlings (Hopefully)

 

Standard:

Traitor Guardsmen (10 per squad)

Beastmen (10-20)

Cultists (10-40)

 

Fast Attack:

All Imperial Units

 

Heavy Support:

All Imperial Units

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

No reason there can't be daemon engines either due to the Dark Mechanicus.

[Nemerax]

Not saying cannot or will not at this point. Daemonic Leman Russ Tank would be damn cool. There are endless options.

For my part Dark Mechanicus deserves their own Codex.

[DuskRaider]

I don't know, but I do hope so. I'd love proper Chaos Knight rules that go beyond just "you can take double weapons". Like God-specific rules. Of course I'd also love Dark Mechanicum rules and a way to play just them.

[Plasmablasts]

It’d be great if Dark Mechanicum got its own Codex but I think it more likely that they’d be mixed into a LatD Codex. That, however, could be a stepping stone to a full Codex in time.

[Kevlarshark]

Negavolt cultists do hint at a Dark Mechanicus HQ.

If a full R&H codex (or even a mini dex) is coming I don't see us getting full access to the Astra Militarum vehicle pool.  I think it will probably be restricted in some way to represent the low tech/makeshift nature of the renegades. 

[Azekai]

Negavolt cultists do hint at a Dark Mechanicus HQ.

If a full R&H codex (or even a mini dex) is coming I don't see us getting full access to the Astra Militarum vehicle pool.  I think it will probably be restricted in some way to represent the low tech/makeshift nature of the renegades. 

I don't get the 'lowtech' angle, that is just one flavor of traitor (IE, the Vraksian renegades). The presence of the Dark Mechanicus means that many chaos factions are well supplied. They certainly wouldn't have all the same warmachines of the loyalist guard, but they could easily have access to the designs for old, Heresy-era vehicles or new daemon engines.

[Lord Marshal]

Apparently Blackstone Fortress' models are getting Kill-Team rules.

 

Now that could just end up being a <Servants of the Abyss> Kill-Team or an extension of Chaos Space Marines... but then, that would mean the non-CSM options heavily outnumber actual CSM options in their own Kill-Team. Of course why couldn't they just tell you to proxy them as Cultists? Why go to all the effort of making 'new' rules?

 

Really, uh, makes you think.

[DuskRaider]

Negavolt cultists do hint at a Dark Mechanicus HQ.

If a full R&H codex (or even a mini dex) is coming I don't see us getting full access to the Astra Militarum vehicle pool. I think it will probably be restricted in some way to represent the low tech/makeshift nature of the renegades.

Dark Mechanicum would probably have access to better / archaeo / xeno technology due to not being held back by the superstitions of Mars. That's one of the reasons they rebelled.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Dark Mechanicus has better technology as they actively send out Warbands to excavate and find STCs in realspace. They also delve into Xenos tech and perform research forbidden by the Adeptus Mechanicus and would probably be going too far even for the T'au Empire. It's why the Dark Mechanicum won the Schism of Mars. They are more treacherous and they innovate.

[Kevlarshark]

Dark Mechanicus has better technology as they actively send out Warbands to excavate and find STCs in realspace. They also delve into Xenos tech and perform research forbidden by the Adeptus Mechanicus and would probably be going too far even for the T'au Empire. It's why the Dark Mechanicum won the Schism of Mars. They are more treacherous and they innovate.

 

Yes, this is very much the argument which should have been applied to the Traitor Legions too (especially Iron Warriors).  However, GW seem to equate Chaos with a Brutal and low tech sort of vibe.  It might not be what we want, but its probably what we will get. Look at the Chaos cultists or the Minis with Blackstone.  All clad in ragged cloaks, all battered equipment; even the higher tech Negavolt cult have a medieval fanatic aesthetic. 

[Excessus]

The more I think about it the more I think the genestealer cult list represents chaos guard more accurately than the renegades & heretics list... -_-

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

It actually does, which is scary. A bunch of diabolical cults and Renegades using guerrilla tactics, horrific Psyker HQs, most cavalry is civilian/manufacturer vehicles, some captured military vehicles, and suicide bombers to win. That sounds perfect for the Lost and the Damned.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

They could do a Lost and the Damned codex like Drukhari in a spin off of the Raiding Party system with the multiple patrol detachments of either Traitor Guard, Dark Mechanicus, Mutants and Beastmen, and Chaos Cults.

[GreenScorpion]

To be honest both visually (except for the tyranid-like parts) and in terms of troop options the GSC give a heretics sense. The mining vehicles, the repurposed IG/AM vehicles, the minor/major mutations, psychers, civilian based weapons (mining equipment and so on) it all justs adds to a nice LatD army feel.

To be honest it gets my conflicted whether or not my bane of genestealers should follow GSC organization or R&H or even AM.

Regardless a proper LatD codex could help on this indecision.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Yeah I don't know which codex to use.

[Lord Marshal]

If you're going for the theme of a cult uprising and guerrilla warfare, then GSC.

 

If you're going for the theme of a standing Chaos-inclined army that's meeting it's enemy on (generally) conventional terms, use R&H/AM.

 

Depending on how the Brood Brothers rule turns out in the codex, you could mix and match too. Although the cynic in me says it won't survive.

[Soulhunter1995]

Unfortunately, I`m waiting for the GSC codex to come out before making my choice  . Although there is still a small part of me that wants to stick with the R&H rules set 

[Azekai]

I have used my renegade guardsmen as GSC or Lost n' Damned depending on my mood. It isn't like you have to marry a codex. 
My old renegade ogryn on 32 mm bases do sterling work as aberrants, for example. Both get access to Leman Russ tanks(!). Both have cult-y psykers in the form of malefic lords and magi.  

Also, GSC can be twisted by the fell powers of Chaos, so... just some food for thought.

[Goreshed]

I've given quite a bit of thought lately to our unique area of the 40k universe in this regards. And honestly as this point I kinda don't want a specific codex.

 

Want to play a uprising from the local populace? GSC is the way to go.

 

Want to play a horde of chaos cultists? Use the regular index from FW.

 

Want to play a Blood Pact/Sons of Sek/full scale army devoted to Chaos? Use the AM dex.

 

We have more options by not having a codex because we can use count as. If its one thing I've noticed is that many of us who are drawn to LatD is the fact that we convert so much of it, we don't just play it for the rules but for everything else that it entails. Why not embrace that fluidity?

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I've given quite a bit of thought lately to our unique area of the 40k universe in this regards. And honestly as this point I kinda don't want a specific codex.

 

Want to play a uprising from the local populace? GSC is the way to go.

 

Want to play a horde of chaos cultists? Use the regular index from FW.

 

Want to play a Blood Pact/Sons of Sek/full scale army devoted to Chaos? Use the AM dex.

 

We have more options by not having a codex because we can use count as. If its one thing I've noticed is that many of us who are drawn to LatD is the fact that we convert so much of it, we don't just play it for the rules but for everything else that it entails. Why not embrace that fluidity?

You make a compelling argument.