So what in the Codex is actually good?

[templargdt]

Honest question.  I have now played exactly one game of 8th edition (last week.)  Based on my reading around various sites I see a consensus about...

 

- Gulliman

- Helblasters

- Banner bearer with the Banner of the Emperor

- An apothecary

 

...and that's about it.  The guy I played last week was using dark angels with a blob of:

- Azrael

- A lieutenant

- A banner bearer 

- A Dark Shroud

- 3 Units of helblasters

 

Apparently Reecius did well recently using Gulliman, sniper scouts, and devastators using stratagems to generate lots of shooting mortal wounds.  Is this what the game really is these days?  How much stuff can you cram into a reroll bubble plus generate mortal wounds, versus how many cheap bodies can you drop to absorb those mortal wounds?  

I'd really like to hear stories from the frater about "I'm using unit x and it's doing pretty well for me by..." and "I'm not using Ultramarines or counts as Ultramarines and I'm having success by..." 

 

[Darth Hoodie]

This is actually a great discussion point cant wait to see the responses on this thread! In my humble opinion right now the Marine Dex is kinda in limbo. The more competitive meta is very skewed and IMO not a great measure of the "state of the game" if you take what you could consider your traditional Astartes Army against what you run into in a tournament setting your going to have a terrible time against some of the more tuned monstrosities you run into.. 

I have been having quite a bit of luck and fun with my Black Templars in several different variations of a list at 2,000 points in what I can describe as a "Casual Competitive Meta" at my LGS. Everyone seems to have a Take all Comers list thats is well balanced and has a few tricks up its sleeve. As much as it pains me to say it I have been playing my zealous crusaders as of late as a predominantly shooting army that can punch above its weight class. Hey by Bolter or Blade I can purge the unclean right?

I for one LOVE my 30 Primaris Intercessors despite the detractors they have some serious utility and staying power. Form the obligatory "death blob" in the center of a table with a Chapter Master and LT and suddenly you have a mass of T4 Wounds, 2+ Armor in cover with some decent guns and punching power when the chance for a counter charge presents itself. 

A few units I scatter in every so often to that core and why. 

Leviathan Dreadnought/ with two storm cannon arrays. Do you want to kill things with all of the dakka? If you answered that with a yes then you want a Leviathan. 

Thunder Fire Cannon/ kinda expensive for its damage output but sweet Jesus is that Tremor Shells stratagem useful. Find a big old scary unit you want nothing to do with and hit it with a movement debuf. "Half the movement, advance and charge of a non flyer non titanic unit. GREAT on blobs and CC Monstrous creatures you dont want all up in your grill. 

 

Scouts/ 3 minimum bolter scout squads have been in my army list all of 8th edition. Super Cheep by space marine standards troops choice for filling out a battalion for those CPs and they serve a great dual threat of board control and area denial. I find my scouts frequently being ignored and they have a knack for always seeming to be where I need them when I need them. They die for the Emperor but they always manage to "earn their points" back for me weather it be through screening, objective grabbing/camping or making a key charge to turn off some guns.

 

Devestator Squad with a single heavy bolter and a "dakka baby" Keep that dev squad perched on a backfield objective and pop the hellfire shells stratagem. Use the signum from the SGT to bump the heavy bolters BS to 2+ and hand out D3 mortal wounds on something you want to hurt. Then pop the "dakka baby" and do it again. In one turn for one CP your back field objective camping unit can hand out 2d3 mortal wounds with a stupid heavy bolter? Sign me up.

Characters Specificially Captains and LTs they are a great force multiplier and their CC abilities are great when it comes to knocking out other big bads in the game. The smash captain is a great utility character for me. "Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Jump Pack" fly around find things and hammer em to death. Simple concept when you think about it. 

[Ishagu]

I'm enjoying significant success with Repulsors, Hellblasters, Inceptors.

 

Reece had a very specific gimmick list that I personally don't rate. In the current game you need mobility and board control. Static bubble gunlines won't win you the big games.

 

To add: The Marine Dex is the weakest of the main armies right now. Chapter Approved is out shortly, but the biggest changes will probably come with a new codex.

 

To add some more: If your main priority is to be competitive and win then this is not the codex to currently use. You can still perform well but it requires a combination of efficient list building and very good player skill and target priority.

[Tokugawa]

Scouts.

[Prot]

Scouts.

Scouts, to me, are probably the best unit in the codex. Huge flexibility in deploying which can result in a great pushback on deepstrikers and the Bolters are still Bolters. The heavy choices allow you to access strategems that give you a shot at mortal wounds.

 

This is why I do use scout bikes. Fast, cheap, access to mortal wounds.

 

I don’t think Reece did that great with his list but you gotta know that throwing Guilliman in any shooty Ultramarines list upgrades it substantially.

 

In fact if you take Guilliman out of competitive play, and take into account the Raven Guard nerfs, I don’t think you’d see marines anywhere close to their already underwhelming performance at tournaments.

 

But as others have said we are moments from Chapter Approved so hang in there.

[Dracos]

Aggressors

Hellblasters

Scouts sprinkled with Intercessors

Inceptors both varieties

 

Slam Captains

Shrike because Corax rules and he's pretty cost effective with the Inceptors

[Medjugorje]

Honest question.  I have now played exactly one game of 8th edition (last week.)  Based on my reading around various sites I see a consensus about...

 

- Gulliman

- Helblasters

- Banner bearer with the Banner of the Emperor

- An apothecary

 

...and that's about it.  The guy I played last week was using dark angels with a blob of:

- Azrael

- A lieutenant

- A banner bearer 

- A Dark Shroud

- 3 Units of helblasters

 

Apparently Reecius did well recently using Gulliman, sniper scouts, and devastators using stratagems to generate lots of shooting mortal wounds.  Is this what the game really is these days?  How much stuff can you cram into a reroll bubble plus generate mortal wounds, versus how many cheap bodies can you drop to absorb those mortal wounds?  

 

I'd really like to hear stories from the frater about "I'm using unit x and it's doing pretty well for me by..." and "I'm not using Ultramarines or counts as Ultramarines and I'm having success by..." 

 

 

 

your forget:

 

- all Captains

- all Lieutenant

- Emperors Champion

- Tigurius

- Sgt. Chronos

- Scouts

- Aggressors

[templargdt]

 

Honest question.  I have now played exactly one game of 8th edition (last week.)  Based on my reading around various sites I see a consensus about...

 

- Gulliman

- Helblasters

- Banner bearer with the Banner of the Emperor

- An apothecary

 

...and that's about it.  The guy I played last week was using dark angels with a blob of:

- Azrael

- A lieutenant

- A banner bearer 

- A Dark Shroud

- 3 Units of helblasters

 

Apparently Reecius did well recently using Gulliman, sniper scouts, and devastators using stratagems to generate lots of shooting mortal wounds.  Is this what the game really is these days?  How much stuff can you cram into a reroll bubble plus generate mortal wounds, versus how many cheap bodies can you drop to absorb those mortal wounds?  

 

I'd really like to hear stories from the frater about "I'm using unit x and it's doing pretty well for me by..." and "I'm not using Ultramarines or counts as Ultramarines and I'm having success by..." 

 

 

 

your forget:

 

- all Captains

- all Lieutenant

- Emperors Champion

- Tigurius

- Sgt. Chronos

- Scouts

- Aggressors

 

So, yes, the reroll bubble.  Scouts provide cheap screens and board control, yes.  I've always loved them.

 

Are aggressors generally considered good?  I have no idea.  On paper they don't seem very good to me.  Sure, fair amount of strength 4 shooting.  I've never had a problem getting that in C:SM.  On balance Inceptors seem better, and frankly I'm not impressed by them either.

[Tokugawa]

 

 

 

 

Honest question. I have now played exactly one game of 8th edition (last week.) Based on my reading around various sites I see a consensus about...

 

- Gulliman

- Helblasters

- Banner bearer with the Banner of the Emperor

- An apothecary

 

...and that's about it. The guy I played last week was using dark angels with a blob of:

- Azrael

- A lieutenant

- A banner bearer

- A Dark Shroud

- 3 Units of helblasters

 

Apparently Reecius did well recently using Gulliman, sniper scouts, and devastators using stratagems to generate lots of shooting mortal wounds. Is this what the game really is these days? How much stuff can you cram into a reroll bubble plus generate mortal wounds, versus how many cheap bodies can you drop to absorb those mortal wounds?

 

I'd really like to hear stories from the frater about "I'm using unit x and it's doing pretty well for me by..." and "I'm not using Ultramarines or counts as Ultramarines and I'm having success by..."

 

 

your forget:

 

- all Captains

- all Lieutenant

- Emperors Champion

- Tigurius

- Sgt. Chronos

- Scouts

- Aggressors

So, yes, the reroll bubble. Scouts provide cheap screens and board control, yes. I've always loved them.

 

Are aggressors generally considered good? I have no idea. On paper they don't seem very good to me. Sure, fair amount of strength 4 shooting. I've never had a problem getting that in C:SM. On balance Inceptors seem better, and frankly I'm not impressed by them either.

After the huge nerf on RG strategem...they lost the most reliable tools to get in firing range.

 

But the Ork codex released...if hordes became very popular, they may be slightly better.

[L30n1d4s]

I still think one of the "sleeper" units of the Codex is a squadron of 3 Predators, all with AC and 2 HBs and a SB:

 

With rerolls from Guilliman plus the KILLSHOT stratagem when needed, they on average do the following:

 

-Castellan Knight with ROTATE ION SHIELDS stratagem -- 28 Unsaved Wounds (or one Titan killed in a single shooting phase)

 

-30 Ork Boyz at 12" range -- 30 dead Boyz (or the whole squad dead in a single shooting phase)

 

-10 MEQs at 24" range -- 12 unsaved wounds (or the whole squad dead in a single shooting phase)

 

Bottom line, in conjunction with Guilliman, three Dakka Preds are very versatile and deadly, without being to exorbitant points wise.

[Aothaine]

I really like scout bikes (Shotgun & Twin Bolters) and Land Speeder Squads. They are really underrated imho.

[Daigo Cannon]

Whirlwind scorpiious has been great for me on my games, no line of sight needed, can sit on the back of your reroll buble and  if it did not move it can fire 2 times, an average of 6 shots, great to get rid of AM havy weapons, sentinel, DE Venoms or Enemi Terminies

[Panzer]

I still think one of the "sleeper" units of the Codex is a squadron of 3 Predators, all with AC and 2 HBs and a SB:

 

 

Not really a sleeper unit. It's what most Marine players jumped on at first when the Codex got released lol

[Indefragable]

I still think one of the "sleeper" units of the Codex is a squadron of 3 Predators, all with AC and 2 HBs and a SB:

 

With rerolls from Guilliman plus the KILLSHOT stratagem when needed, they on average do the following:

 

-Castellan Knight with ROTATE ION SHIELDS stratagem -- 28 Unsaved Wounds (or one Titan killed in a single shooting phase)

 

-30 Ork Boyz at 12" range -- 30 dead Boyz (or the whole squad dead in a single shooting phase)

 

-10 MEQs at 24" range -- 12 unsaved wounds (or the whole squad dead in a single shooting phase)

 

Bottom line, in conjunction with Guilliman, three Dakka Preds are very versatile and deadly, without being to exorbitant points wise.

 

FYI RAW (unless FAQ'd) Killshot only works if targeting Vehicles of Monstrous Creatures.

 

That being said, if you use lascannon Preds and Killshot together (preferably with some re-rolls) there are few things in the game that will survive.

[L30n1d4s]

Yes, those stats actually come from only using KILLSHOT on the Knight and just the Guillinan rerolls for everything else, believe it or not.

[GreyCrow]

@OP : Yeah, for Marines, it’s a lot of : “how much can you cram in a rerolls bubble”.

 

That’s if, and only IF, you decide to go for a codex compliant “battle company” route here.

 

40k is not balanced around units being good individually and comboing with each other, it’s always been about ‘think your army like a system, and ‘understand weight of dice’ for statistical results.

And then you have to accept that 40k is a statistical system rather than an intuitive wargame.

In real life, nobody would blob like this in modern military, and Marines would be able to use their boltguns decently effectively at 48” (100m) given all their tech and superior physique.

 

When you understand that the game is not to scale, it’s much easier.

 

Then you have another rule of strategy which is about ‘concentrating force’. You can’t afford to spread your threat projection ever, even more so if your units are weak/unreliable.

 

Design your army as a system with these principles with the statistical output of the codex entries both for defense and offense, and you’ll be more effective.

It’s not like units are built for a specific function like the Eldar Codex, it’s actually a harder exercise.

 

—-

 

Example of a system

 

The ‘Battle Company’ was always a concept of ablative wounds. You have a few models per squad that are crucial, then the rest is just making sure they can shoot another turn.

Even more so, it’s designed to gang up in one area where few objectives are cramped together, where it can get overlapping fields of rapid fire range.

 

Basically, pick a point in the map, cram objectives there and gang up on a threat.

 

You can fit 100 Marines within the reroll area of the Captain.

With some minor adjustment to the formation as you go, it’s going to be a massive porcupine if guns very few people will want to go through, and you can easily cover a massive amount of objectives.

 

At 2000 points, you can get :

Captain + Lieutenant with some light gear

6 x Tacticals with Power Axe, Plasmagun and Missile Launcher each

2 x Devastator Squads with 2 Plasma Cannon/2 Missile Launchers each

2 x Assault Squads with Power Axe, Plasma Pistol and Flamer

 

That’s 68 Wounds of Marines to chew through before getting to all your weapons.

I’m simplifying obviously, but if he wipes out a Deva Squad, you have a full one at the ready, plus your weapons spread around in the Tacticals.

 

Since they are all grouped up in one spot, everything coming within 20” of your targets will get :

- 10 Krak (14 avg damage with rerolls on T7, 3+) or Frag Missiles (7 MEQ dead) at 48”

- 14 Plasma Shots (average canon + single shot guns) which leads to 6 wounds at 2 damage each (there goes 250 points of cheeky Terminators)

- 47 Bolter Shots which lead to 7 damage on MEQ (Devas + Tacticals single shot range) after rerolls

 

We are talking that per turn.

 

It’s à damage over 5 turn list with high ablation count so your big guns keep firing over and over, and slow down pesky squads that get close with your assault squads.

Your guys are going to die, your goal as a general is to find which spot of the map to fight over and to minimize casualties.

 

You can’t win every battle. You have to design an efficient system and then play it accordingly. Each system is good for a few things, then you have to make sure your tactical decisions are supporting your design.

 

Example with the Battle company ? Choose an area and screw it very hard. You need to make sure that your objective placement is done to support that (keep them at min distance of each other) and to make sure you group your Troops enough to potentially cover everything you need.

 

—-

 

Bottom line, there is no one way to play Marines.

The most marketed system (codex compliant) is only one of the many designs that can be effective.

 

But to be effective, it has to be also played to its strengths, with a coldly objective assessment of damage output.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

"But the Ork codex released...if hordes became very popular, they may be slightly better."

 

This is the horde edition.

 

Anyways there are several good units imo based upon my experience:

 

Tiggy (best psyker in the game)
Marneus Calgar

 

Intercessors

Scouts

 

Hellblasters

 

Inceptors

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I make heavy use of the Storm Talon and Storm Hawk. Both have abilities built in that counter the shooting penalty for Heavy weapons and when paired with the IH strat can improve hit rolls to 2+. They're fast and can be geared for killing hordes or tanks or both. They're not overly tough, the Talons in particular, but the Distraction Carnifex Effect is real, so they usually pull shots away from my vehicle-heavy gun line for a turn or two.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those flyers give SM a unit that is really fast and shooty plus not such a points investment as say a Stormraven of FR .

[Lemondish]

I'm enjoying significant success with Repulsors, Hellblasters, Inceptors.

 

Reece had a very specific gimmick list that I personally don't rate. In the current game you need mobility and board control. Static bubble gunlines won't win you the big games.

 

Reece's list had mobility in spades, on top of not needing to contest for early board control because it ran 6 squads of Scouts. Scouts definitely mean you place more value in deployment than your first couple turns of movement, but ultimately allows you to control great swaths of the board early just as mobility would. Reece had a tendency to play it very aggressively, moving forward quickly to engage directly with the opponent. After all, he's running Bobby G, which makes everything faster, alongside 9 Scout bikes which are one of the best units in the entire codex. 

 

Followed by Devastators, which are also one of the best units in the codex, thanks to the signum, cherub, and stratagem support.  

 

To add: The Marine Dex is the weakest of the main armies right now. Chapter Approved is out shortly, but the biggest changes will probably come with a new codex.

To add some more: If your main priority is to be competitive and win then this is not the codex to currently use. You can still perform well but it requires a combination of efficient list building and very good player skill and target priority.

 

Define main army  I'm sure the GK players would like a word with you on that. 

 

You can still win competitively with space marines, but you're right that the chance for failure is a bit higher than other, more capable codexes. However, I'd like to point out that list building is only one part of the game, and a small one at that. It's tied to skill - because it's defined based on how easily can you mitigate bad luck. I've faced people running the LVO winning Eldar list and completely smashed them to pieces with my codex marines. Likewise, I've faced very capable, very smart Grey Knight players who were extremely successful in their own right. Ultimately, how competitive you want the army to be depends on how competitive your local meta is.  

[Ishagu]

Reece's list had SOME mobility, yet diminished in output when it moved. I can get more mortal wounds for cheaper at range using other Imperium units.

[Lemondish]

Reece's list had SOME mobility, yet diminished in output when it moved. I can get more mortal wounds for cheaper at range using other Imperium units.

 

Perhaps - but it was the speed of output that was important because once you either take out or severely harm the tough targets, the rest of your force just overwhelms the opponent and you don't need it any longer. The synergy with Guilliman bringing full wound rerolls for snipers targetting high T targets helps them fish for MW much more effectively, which isn't easily available elsewhere. The Chapter Ancient and Apothecary means you kill those Devastators, and all of a sudden you're facing a hellfire shell in your face on your own turn and they have a good chance of standing pack up the next turn. 

 

Secondary to that, I disagree with the insistence that there was diminished output when it moved. For one, you don't need to move a whole army at once largely because he had the bodies for effective board control from deployment onwards. While that's true that the backline units would be affected by movement, there's absolutely no need to ever move your backfield heavy support elements like Devastators in most cases because they're there for the high T hunt early and mopping up second. His mobile elements were FAST. The 16'' movement gave them a 28'' threat range and 22 shots per 3 man unit. That absolutely rocks light infantry, and there's no big juicy anti-tank target in play for the list either. There's a reason why it's been placing high - it maximizes the best parts of the codex by cherry picking well costed units and synergistic effects that rely almost entirely on the two best of a pile of terrible stratagems. Its weaknesses are the same weaknesses as other marine lists - it fails to make a case for why T4, 3+ is worth the points paid for it, and outside of the stratagems chosen here, there's not much else worth using CP on. I would not agree that mobility is a weakness for this list, though. Not when it uses the most mobile space marine units in the entire codex outside of flyers. 

[ERJAK]

@OP : Yeah, for Marines, it’s a lot of : “how much can you cram in a rerolls bubble”.

 

That’s if, and only IF, you decide to go for a codex compliant “battle company” route here.

 

40k is not balanced around units being good individually and comboing with each other, it’s always been about ‘think your army like a system, and ‘understand weight of dice’ for statistical results.

And then you have to accept that 40k is a statistical system rather than an intuitive wargame.

In real life, nobody would blob like this in modern military, and Marines would be able to use their boltguns decently effectively at 48” (100m) given all their tech and superior physique.

 

When you understand that the game is not to scale, it’s much easier.

 

Then you have another rule of strategy which is about ‘concentrating force’. You can’t afford to spread your threat projection ever, even more so if your units are weak/unreliable.

 

Design your army as a system with these principles with the statistical output of the codex entries both for defense and offense, and you’ll be more effective.

It’s not like units are built for a specific function like the Eldar Codex, it’s actually a harder exercise.

 

—-

 

Example of a system

 

The ‘Battle Company’ was always a concept of ablative wounds. You have a few models per squad that are crucial, then the rest is just making sure they can shoot another turn.

Even more so, it’s designed to gang up in one area where few objectives are cramped together, where it can get overlapping fields of rapid fire range.

 

Basically, pick a point in the map, cram objectives there and gang up on a threat.

 

You can fit 100 Marines within the reroll area of the Captain.

With some minor adjustment to the formation as you go, it’s going to be a massive porcupine if guns very few people will want to go through, and you can easily cover a massive amount of objectives.

 

At 2000 points, you can get :

Captain + Lieutenant with some light gear

6 x Tacticals with Power Axe, Plasmagun and Missile Launcher each

2 x Devastator Squads with 2 Plasma Cannon/2 Missile Launchers each

2 x Assault Squads with Power Axe, Plasma Pistol and Flamer

 

That’s 68 Wounds of Marines to chew through before getting to all your weapons.

I’m simplifying obviously, but if he wipes out a Deva Squad, you have a full one at the ready, plus your weapons spread around in the Tacticals.

 

Since they are all grouped up in one spot, everything coming within 20” of your targets will get :

- 10 Krak (14 avg damage with rerolls on T7, 3+) or Frag Missiles (7 MEQ dead) at 48”

- 14 Plasma Shots (average canon + single shot guns) which leads to 6 wounds at 2 damage each (there goes 250 points of cheeky Terminators)

- 47 Bolter Shots which lead to 7 damage on MEQ (Devas + Tacticals single shot range) after rerolls

 

We are talking that per turn.

 

It’s à damage over 5 turn list with high ablation count so your big guns keep firing over and over, and slow down pesky squads that get close with your assault squads.

Your guys are going to die, your goal as a general is to find which spot of the map to fight over and to minimize casualties.

 

You can’t win every battle. You have to design an efficient system and then play it accordingly. Each system is good for a few things, then you have to make sure your tactical decisions are supporting your design.

 

Example with the Battle company ? Choose an area and screw it very hard. You need to make sure that your objective placement is done to support that (keep them at min distance of each other) and to make sure you group your Troops enough to potentially cover everything you need.

 

—-

 

Bottom line, there is no one way to play Marines.

The most marketed system (codex compliant) is only one of the many designs that can be effective.

 

But to be effective, it has to be also played to its strengths, with a coldly objective assessment of damage output.

Here's a coldly objective assessment of their damage out: Other armies will do more with more relative durability.

[GreyCrow]

 

Here's a coldly objective assessment of their damage out: Other armies will do more with more relative durability.

 

 

It would be a better help for the readers to substiantiate your point with facts!data.

 

I took on a Chaos 1k points list with an unoptmized battle demi company. There were 3 Warglaives (definition of undercosted), the HQ and 2 squads of Zerkers in Rhinos.

 

Close defeat 20-24 due to me picking the wrong flank to push. Other side would have netted me more VP due to closer packed objectives.

 

If you only factor the unit stats and not all the ways to use the battlefield and the special rules to your advantage; you're playing half the game.

People lose if they only look at damage stats.

[Firepower]

The Emperor's Champion is probably my favorite bang-for-buck unit.  Just about everything else I have painted lands in the mediocre to lousy range, but he's a proper killer and for a proper price in points. 

 

Our HQ choice in general are alright.  I had fun using a Marshal on a bike with the Crusader Helm.  A big ol' bubble of rerolls where you want it, and when you need it.  That relic and the Champion are arguably the two best things about playing Templars.