BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Reece’s list was not designed to win the GT or invitational at NOVA plus Guilliman is a super crutch so I can’t really respect his SM army much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chapter master 454 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Sternguard are great. Do NOT underestimate their AP2 boltguns and are certainly scary especially considering their masterful marksmanship stratagem is potent even by itself however they do get boosts from other stratagems and units. Land Raider Excelsior. Yes, it is a Land Raider but it does some serious work considering that it now has a grav-cannon instead of the TLHBs which means the anti-tank power goes up nicely along with knocking down heavy infantry. Couple that with the fact it is a character it can have some fun with relics like say armour indominatus! (there has been a thread about what you can do with the land raider excelsior started by yours truly some time ago, if you want to SEE what there is to offer, look there). Rhino Primaris. This is another sleeper I think people don't realise because being able to give +1 to hitting with this thing is pretty boss. Yea, the orbital TV dish isn't much use (other than getting the latest on necromunda leagues XD) but the buffs it hands out can be potent if you start using stratagems in tandem. Remember, as marines we go from 3+ to hit then to 2+ and we all love our captains so we can output some pretty nasty range hurting. Intercessors. Naturally, these guys have made waves everywhere just because well...they feel like actual marines. Just good basic rifles and nothing to say about that. Also I think their grenade launchers are hands down the best wargear upgrade out there. Nothing in the fast attack section. No seriously, just move along...why are you still looking there? What are you? a sad white scar player? Predators would be good if they had something to them really. Thunderfires only get saved by their stratagem currently though a points drop is what they need. Devastators hold their edge not too bad. Hunters and Stalkers are so bad even from their inception that anytime you mention one I hear a cymbal! Land Raiders are my love but I will admit they still need help. Stormravens ain't bad ether. Naturally my expertise with marines comes from using heavier duty gear unlike what feels like others seem to do. Personally I have attempted things with centurions, dreadnoughts and anything heavy armour. Even attempted to use the redemptor. Just sadly a lot of the marine stuff lacks teeth really, nothing to grip with. Like they are just a sword, plain straight up sword. They can cut but when you compare it with other armies who have all sorts of additional tricks marines just lack any sort of ace card really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainMarsh Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Someone mentioned Aggressors earlier. They have some utility and Salamander Aggressors can be a terrifying proposition for any enemy, but they are a bullet magnet and lack the mobility options to get up close and personal easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Reece’s list was not designed to win the GT or invitational at NOVA plus Guilliman is a super crutch so I can’t really respect his SM army much.Well, if we're taking about what's good in the codex, then it begins with Guilliman. He not only makes some units good, he makes other units actually passable. Without him, you have a much shorter list of 'good'. I have my own wishlist of how he should be changed to reduce the reliance on him, but probably not a subject for this thread. @chapter master 454 nothing in fast attack?! Scout bikes are amazing! Nothing else is. Inceptors are fun, but lack decent support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 You don't see any Guilliman lists winning majors anymore so I say the sun has set for the fair haired boyo. Of course he is still quite good for some EZ mode play style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Yeah, RG is good, and a great player who's built an anti meta list can probably perform well at an event but sooner or later it will be beaten badly. I took Ultras to several tournaments and managed a respectable 3.5 wins out of 5 across multiple events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Not sure how you got half a win? :p Calgar is a good unit/model. If Terminators get a boost he could become an automatic inclusion. Telion is good as a budget HQ for Scouts too. Techmarines and Lieutenants are great for their cheapness. Classic Marines versions are super cheap and it's always nice to get that Master Crafted Bolter wound on something. I've enjoyed a Cheap Captain with Sternguard. The Rhino is a tad expensive but the unit can kill targets and follow it up with a reasonable assault. My current Captain gets the Teeth of Terra and a Mastercrafted Bolter and the unit has been effective in just about every game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 A Draw in one case. In the other case it was one tournament with 4 wins and another with 3 for an average of 3.5 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 You don't see any Guilliman lists winning majors anymore so I say the sun has set for the fair haired boyo. Of course he is still quite good for some EZ mode play style.Winning majors is a very poor metric for judging the efficacy of an army. Thats silly. That's a sample size of two per month. Seriously weak. Now placing at the top tables? That's a far better pool to draw conclusions from. And guess what, RG lists still place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Do they? Really? Maybe one or two here and there but honestly no. There have been multiple massive events where no marine armies using the regular codex hit the top 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 There are many major events now each month in North America. You have to have a metric to go by... just saying coz you say so — nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Do they? Really? Maybe one or two here and there but honestly no. There have been multiple massive events where no marine armies using the regular codex hit the top 20. I'll list the ones once I gather the entire list - you're going to be quite surprised. The metric is the one laid out already, Orange - majors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Okay, incoming drop of info... Top 20 placements of Codex Space Marines only, limited to big ITC Majors. GTs were not included in this quick perusal because there's a ton of them. Statistically, on the competitive scene across hundreds of events, marines will lose much more often than they'll win. However, even knowing that, and against the best of the best, they can still place in the top tables at ITC Majors. In conclusion, if you want to compete against the absolute best in this hobby, do not play marines of any flavour right now unless you have next level skills. If you just want a competitive army that doesn't roll over against everything your mates bring at the FLGS, you could do much worse than taking tips from these tournament lists. Wet Coast GT Black Templars 4th, Codex Marines 7th 5th Annual March Madness Ultramarines 2nd, Ultramarines 13th Broadside Bash 2018 Ultramarines 7th, Raven Guard 10th Barnyard Brawl GT1 Raven Guard 6th Alamo 40 GT Codex Marines 10th London GT Ultramarines 5th TBMC ITC GT Codex Marines 13th Dallas Open GT Raven Guard 10th TSHFT 40k Championship Ultramarines 3rd MAGS Championship Ultramarines 11th Warzone Giga-Bites 2018 Ultramarines 10th Battle Zone Ursa 2018 Codex Marines 6th (BA 7th, SW 8th, DA 9th, and GK 10th) Attack-X Salamanders 17th BAO Only DA at 11th 2018 FoB NZ GT Codex Marines 17th, DA 11th, DW 13th Dragon-Fall ITC Event Ultramarines 6th Barnyard Brawl Tournament Codex Marines 8th Malmo ITC Major Ultramarines 7th NOVA Ultramarines 15th SoCal Open :( Battle for Salvation Codex Marines 4th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 I would like your post but apparently I've reached my daily limit lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Sternguard are great. Do NOT underestimate their AP2 boltguns and are certainly scary especially considering their masterful marksmanship stratagem is potent even by itself however they do get boosts from other stratagems and units. This. They're basically the only unit left worth putting in a drop pod. They don't even need upgrades with the stratagem, just maybe a Captain and/or Leiutenant if you want to boost their damage. They're very good at clearing any infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 buuuuut They aren't worth taking as for the same price of a Sternguard unit in a Pod you can have a squad of Inceptors with Plasma, or the cheaper Bolter variants and they both do the job far better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autek mor Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 buuuuut They aren't worth taking as for the same price of a Sternguard unit in a Pod you can have a squad of Inceptors with Plasma, or the cheaper Bolter variants and they both do the job far better. i agree, primaris have made certain units or certain weapon options for units redundant in terms of being efficient. if players really want to play drop pod style without a heavy tax then there is always teleporting deathwatch soup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Edit: Nevermind, post removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 But the plasma Inceptors can do even more damage. I think they are an under-appreciated unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Sternguard have assault capacity and can get in Rhinos. Being inside a Rhino means they won't be shot and weakened easily. The Rhino contributes greatly to target saturation. They also are not as susceptible to high damage weapons. 2 Lascannons can easily cripple a unit of 3 Inceptors yet the Sternguard still operate effectively. They're totally different beasts but if people play kill-hammer they just want to plonk units down without a thought and line up and shoot, which will result in a pure maths look appearing to favour Inceptors. The truth is far from it. They operate as an elite spear tip and escort for a character. You can rapid fire then charge and do nice damage. I've wiped out Genestealers and Broodlords in a turn thanks to a Captain and his Sternguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 It's just mostly because the Drop Pod is so expensive really. We've already talked about it. It provides little more, if at all, than giving a unit Jump Packs but costs about 8 times as much for a unit of 10 Marines. That's why any unit + Drop Pods will always be worse off than a comparable unit with Jump Packs. Sternguards are probably the best unit to put into Drop Pods, true. However I dare say putting them into Rhinos or Razorbacks is overall the better option still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 Exactly - saying putting them in Drop Pods is a reason they're not as good as Inceptors is like saying putting then in Land Raiders is the reason they're not as good as Assault Terminators. Sternguard are their own entity. They are the ultimate Space Marines; shoot well and assault well. They work well from Rhinos and have easy access to character support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 It's actually quite interesting how Intercessors are the exact middle ground of Tacticals with Bolter and Sternguard with Special Issue Bolter. Just with +1W and without a cool Stratagem to boost their damage output. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 But the plasma Inceptors can do even more damage. I think they are an under-appreciated unit. Honestly, I think the issue is that they kind of require a captain to make the most of them. When it comes to space marine auras, the tendency is to maximize their effectiveness, not limit them to supporting a single unit. But you're right, they do get dismissed too quickly. Perhaps it's the random shots that turn many away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 There's one Strat that works on them like a charm; Scions of Guilliman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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