BA and CA 2.0

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Hey guys, 

Just preparing for the soon to be released CA 2.0! I figured we could go ahead and start up a thread about it. This way we can post some of our wants and initial thoughts on what might happen for us and move to Winners and losers when we get that sweet book in our hands.

My goal is not to make this a how to fix astartes thread but to carve out what we want that is within reason, Wish listing and all that is okay to an extent but let's try not to get too absurd with it. We don't want Jole to have to shut it down before it really gets started!

I'll start us off!:

We do indeed have many over costed units at the moment and I'm fairly certain not all of them are going to get fixed in CA but I hope we get a bone or two thrown our way for our army specific gear. 

Baal Preds really need a points drop or a +1 T +2 Wound for their points. 
Our Furioso Dreads need either an invulnerable save, or +1 Toughness for what they costs currently. I would prefer a reduction in points for Blood Fists and Claws by about 15 and 10 respectfully. 

There's two a lot of us want to field (this goes for us successors too!) rather than strictly the parent chapter. I hope we get some good conversation going here with as positive of an outlook as we can muster. That is one of the best things about our group!

Cheers!
Happy Posting!
DBH

[Panzer]

That'll be quick.

I don't expect anything aside of some points reductions which not all will hit the spot.

I hope for some additional Stratgems and Relics and stuff for everyone.

 

Nothing concrete because there's literally nothing to base anything concrete on except for the "leaks" that already got discussed in the News&Rumour section.

[BluejayJunior]

Hoping to see some Chapter Tactics for vehicles for all Space Marines. The way some playtesters are talking, it seems like there might be more that just points changes, but who knows. GW could easily add some universal rules for power armored factions and vehicle Chapter Tactics in just a couple pages. 

 

I would love to see the Baal Predator get something that allows it to shoot after advancing. It gets a bonus to advancing, but has no reason to ever advance. 

Furioso Dreads should have a FnP, since they are supposed to be our equivalent of venerable dreadnoughts. 

Give BA assault squads objective secured or something so we have a reason to use them. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

Hopes and wishes:

 

-the base Astartes profile gets a couple points cheaper, and therefore all upgrades to that (veterans, DC, SG) do likewise.

-encarmine weapons get cheaper. 16 pts for encarmine axe, same cost as a Thunder hammer and worse in every way?  12 for a Sword?

-Baal Predator needs to be totally rethought and redone. Stratagem needs a fix.

-Death Company fnp...either throw it out and drop the model's price or boost it to 5+++.  6+++ on a 1 wound model is such garbage.  Make them immune to morale too, or boost ldr by 1-2 pts.

-Furioso dread FNP and frag cannon cheaper, as others have said.

-For the love of god lower the cost of Dante.

-re-word it so that any second founding chapter can take any/all of the relics, not just the one crappy one.

[Silverson]

Tactical marines to drop by 2 points.

Primaris Marines to drop by 1 point.

Dante to drop by 15-20 points.

Assault marines get a points drop.

Inceptors get a points increase.

The Sanguinor to get +1 wound.

Sanguinary guard to get +1 attack.

Sanguinary guard “heirs of Azkaellon” rule change to get a benefit while near Dante instead of being redundant.

Death company to get 5++ fnp.

Death company dreadnought get extra attacks on 6’s with blood tallons and the tallons get a points drop.

Baal predators get a point drop to be more competitive.

Forgeworld relics units allow 1 before you need to have another unit in that slot, eg take a relic leviathan dreadnought before needing another heavy support.

 

 

 

But I’d trade all this for giving marines, Primaris Marines and adeptus custodes +1 wound.

 

 

Posted this somewhere else, but that’s a few things I thought

[Indefragable]

Repeating what pretty much everyone above said.

 

-Dante needs MORE considering he is the most underwhelming CM in the game at the moment. Sorry, but an extra wound and attack and Fly does not stack it against other characters, especially considering fluffwise Dante has over a millenia of experience as a Chapter Master compared to others who have maybe a hundred odd years, if that....and that was BEFORE Guilliman showed up.

A points drop will be welcome and make him useful, but buffing him to be worthwhile at his pricepoint is what is needed. I only expect the former, however.

 

-DC: as others have pointed out, they just don't live up to their reputation at the moment. Again, the simple fix would be to give them a 5+++ especially since they can't be affected by the Standard of Sacrifice banner

 

-Fragioso Furioso dreadnought needs some help. Simply put, it should be a Ven dread that focuses on CQC. Boom. Roasted. WS2+/BS2+ 6+++. Problem is with the re-rolls from Fists/Claws already existing, that would make it pretty much the same thing as the DC Dread already. So yea, Furioso needs something special

 

-Baal Predator: it's 1w more than an Assback. LOLZ. Make it cost 1w more than an Assback or by the Emperor make it worth it's point value with more rules/abilities

Simplest fix: let it Advance AND Shoot in the same turn....wow, bet I was the first person to think of that idea

 

All sorts of other ideas (like native invuln for Mephy), but I don't expect CA to cover any of that.

[brother_b]

Boost the baal pred weapon up to IG hellhound stats. Add to the engine strat that heavy weapons can be fired as assault weapons.

 

Baal pred fixed.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Tactical marines to drop by 2 points.

Primaris Marines to drop by 1 point.

Dante to drop by 15-20 points.

Assault marines get a points drop.

Inceptors get a points increase.

The Sanguinor to get +1 wound.

Sanguinary guard to get +1 attack.

Sanguinary guard “heirs of Azkaellon” rule change to get a benefit while near Dante instead of being redundant.

Death company to get 5++ fnp.

Death company dreadnought get extra attacks on 6’s with blood tallons and the tallons get a points drop.

Baal predators get a point drop to be more competitive.

Forgeworld relics units allow 1 before you need to have another unit in that slot, eg take a relic leviathan dreadnought before needing another heavy support.

 

 

 

But I’d trade all this for giving marines, Primaris Marines and adeptus custodes +1 wound.

 

 

Posted this somewhere else, but that’s a few things I thought

Custodes don't need the additional wound. I think the fixing Astartes thread hit on that pretty well.

 

Heirs of Azkaellon would be completely pointless for successor chapters. What I would like to see however is it changed to be more like Company Vets where the wounds can be traded to the Sanguinary Guard if that's the case. Or make it where they can fight or shoot again on a 4+ while in range of the warlord. And I agree the encarmine blades need a points reduction at least for the axe, no way its worth more points than a power fist.

 

I think SG should be WS 2+ I'd probably be okay with +1 attack on them instead but I really think WS 2+ is more befitting them.

 

I would love a stratagem that makes a generic captain a chapter master. Especially for us successor players, and to be honest, I would love for characters other than the Sanguinary Ancient be allowed to get Death Masks. For 2 hand flamers that would be an auto include on every single one of my HQs not a named character.

 

Speaking of the death mask I would like a change to the current stratagem to include increasing the potency of it by 1-2 in addition to the range buff. Make it worth wanting to use. Either that or make it -1 to hit them if the enemy is within x inches of any unit with a death mask.

 

I think there's a lot of potential with some of the responses so far. I even think one or two might sneak its way into CA 2.0 that isn't for all astartes. 

[Silverson]

the reason I put custodes in the +1 wound category with space marines and Primaris Marines is a to keep them at +1 wound over primaris as they are now.

 

Heirs of Azkaellon would not be pointless to successors as I ment to have an added benefit around Dante but maybe it should instead be that Dante buffs sanguinary guard instead. I don’t think making them like company vets is right because we already have that from that unit, and we get the fight again from the sanguinary ancient.

 

Ws 2+ would be really good also for sanguinary and make sense to me, and yeas you right encarmine aces need a buff maybe +3 strength -2 ap damage d3 would make them more realistic to their current point but we will probably just get a points drop.

 

Changing death masks to something worth while would be really nice.

 

Your other comments about getting things for successors I don’t know much about because as far as my opinion goes you should just be able to play any blood angels successor chapter using the full rules for blood angels. I personally don’t think successor chapters should get any extra rules.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Your other comments about getting things for successors I don’t know much about because as far as my opinion goes you should just be able to play any blood angels successor chapter using the full rules for blood angels. I personally don’t think successor chapters should get any extra rules.

For 3 editions I've wanted the ability to take a DIY chapter master legally with out DIY rules. Successors not being able to have their own CM or technically the relics etc. Is really bad. I mean I get it. I play my Carmine Blades as BA and not CBs so I can have the bells and whistles.

[Panzer]

Since it's becoming more of a wishlisting thread instead of a "what do you expect" thread, I want to mention something I noticed a few days ago ... Lieutenants are WAY too expensive.

I came to compare them with Custodes Troops.

Custodes:

WS2+ S5 T5 W3 A3 Sv2+/5++/6+++(against MW in the psychic phase)

Sentinel Blade:

SUser AP-3 D1d3

Special:

Troop slot, ObSec, Emperor's Chosen (invul +1, so they actually have a 4++)

 

Primaris Lieutenant:

WS2+ S4 T4 W5 A4 Sv3+

Power sword:

SUser AP-3 D1

Special:

Character keyword, re-roll wound rolls of 1, Red Thirst

 

One costs short under 50p and the other costs short above 70p. One has better armour, an invul and Smite protection, the other has Character protection and two more wounds. One does multiple damage at higher strength (could be even worse with the spear instead) and keeps his ranged attacks, the other trades his Bolter for a S4 D1 melee weapon.

 

I was surprised at how much worse Lieutenants seem to be. They already are mediocre buff HQs and worse beatsticks than Captains but I didn't think they'd be worse than the most basic Custodes AND more expensive lol

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Since it's becoming more of a wishlisting thread instead of a "what do you expect" thread, I want to mention something I noticed a few days ago ... Lieutenants are WAY too expensive.

I came to compare them with Custodes Troops.

Custodes:

WS2+ S5 T5 W3 A3 Sv2+/5++/6+++(against MW in the psychic phase)

Sentinel Blade:

SUser AP-3 D1d3

Special:

Troop slot, ObSec, Emperor's Chosen (invul +1, so they actually have a 4++)

 

Primaris Lieutenant:

WS2+ S4 T4 W5 A4 Sv3+

Power sword:

SUser AP-3 D1

Special:

Character keyword, re-roll wound rolls of 1, Red Thirst

 

One costs short under 50p and the other costs short above 70p. One has better armour, an invul and Smite protection, the other has Character protection and two more wounds. One does multiple damage at higher strength (could be even worse with the spear instead) and keeps his ranged attacks, the other trades his Bolter for a S4 D1 melee weapon.

 

I was surprised at how much worse Lieutenants seem to be. They already are mediocre buff HQs and worse beatsticks than Captains but I didn't think they'd be worse than the most basic Custodes AND more expensive lol

What I foresee happening is reduced points across the board. This thread was also meant for when the book drops we have a source to talk about everything that comes from CA 2.0

 

What I expect is astartes dropping 2-3 points across the board, scouts going from 55 to 45-50 and tacticals base 50-55 I'm not sure they will drop much more than that.

 

There are so many things astartes need help with and points adjustments it will boil down to the banter that became apart of the Adeptus Astartes thread on "fixing space marines" which isn't the purpose of this thread. Though wish listing is encouraged I feel like it needs to be concrete ideas and not spaghetti western rules that are fast and loose.

 

My prediction for BA specifically is as follows:

 

Mephiston up to 165 from 145

Legacy Captains across the board going up to 87 points base from 77. Thunder hammer going up to 25-27 points from 21 storm shield going up 5-6 points as well.

 

Primaris down to 75-80 base.

 

Furioso librarian needs to be 154 from 174 minimum. DC dread and Furioso both need a 20 point drop as well.

 

The Baal either needs a buff or a 20% minimum decrease in base points.

 

TDA down to 135-145 base from 190+

 

Drop pod down to 48-50 points base

Land speeder down to 40-45 points base

 

There are loads of other things that need help but I think those key points drops are things we will probably see. GW may prove to be more liberal or conservative with the above predictions but I think that's on the right track and would increase the effectiveness of Blood Angel's overall.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I want death coy fnp upgraded to 5+++ as has been mentioned, and maybe a some sort of fix to their morale, maybe only losing 1 model ever to battle shock like the DAs get, or strait out fearless.

[Majkhel]

I'm also expecting mostly point drops across the marines rooster. Honestly I do not think they will be enough to fix them, but any help would do. 
Terminators, Tacticals, Intercessors and some chosen HQ. I do not think the Scouts will be touched.

The outcome for us however will also depend on what CA will introduce for other factions.

[Charlo]

The early reports say all generic marine stuff is dropping around 10% or so in points. No idea if that affects our unique units, hopefully. If true it'll mean Vanguard Veterans will be even more attractive over DC.

 

Special Characters are also all apparently going down in pts so I can see Dante being reduced too. Once again though I'd rather they do more to make him worth 215 than drop his points. If  Dev of Baal is anything to go by, he's really undersold on his ability to command in game. He should get an extra warlord trait and at least one free CP.

 

Encarmine Weapons are strangely pointed as people say so hopefully they go in line, I imagine they are pointed in comparison to SG and not other weapons though to keep them at a certain cost.

 

And another excellent point that SG gain no benefits from being near Dante. Maybe a re-roll to wound too or something as an easy fix.

[Quixus]

My wish list of things not yet mentioned, in no particular order:

- Fly rule needs to be reworked. Do not ignore terrain in any phase, but allow to measure min distances (i.e. through the air) in all phases. Clarify that other units cannot do that.

- JPs need to get into CC more easily: +2 to charge distance at least, if a freaking horn gets +1 already.

- Vanguard veterans get special weapons or reintroduction of the Company Veterans with JPs.

- point reductions on marines across the board and JPs.

- Two warlord traits for Dante

- remove the one attempt of a power per phase from Matched play.

- Nerf mortal wounds not smite.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Do we really think any of these changes could make Mono-BA viable though?

[Panzer]

That's not really the point I think. I mean, yes ideally CA would make mono BA viable, but realistically we know that just some small points reduction isn't even near tackling the actual problems Marine armies have.

[Aothaine]

I'm not even concerned with points drops. I want space marines to be more survivable. Maybe allow them to reroll their armor saves or give all space marines +1W. 

 

I also want to see assault marines get +1A.

 

I want less/the same models on the board but I want them to be tough to take out. Horde marines is not something I'm interested in. I want them to be the elite BAs that they are in the books. Leave the hordes to IG/T'au/Orks etc..

 

I also want to see other units get buffed, bikes, whirlwinds, baal preds you know.. the units no one takes to a game because they are outclassed in every way.

 

Edit: Also, Terminators need to be fixed. Give them 4-5 wounds each or give them a rerollable invlun/armor save that cannot be reduced past 4+.

[Panzer]

I'm not even concerned with points drops. I want space marines to be more survivable. Maybe allow them to reroll their armor saves or give all space marines +1W. 

 

I also want to see assault marines get +1A.

 

I want less/the same models on the board but I want them to be tough to take out. Horde marines is not something I'm interested in. I want them to be the elite BAs that they are in the books. Leave the hordes to IG/T'au/Orks etc..

 

I also want to see other units get buffed, bikes, whirlwinds, baal preds you know.. the units no one takes to a game because they are outclassed in every way.

 

Edit: Also, Terminators need to be fixed. Give them 4-5 wounds each or give them a rerollable invlun/armor save that cannot be reduced past 4+.

 

Amen. One of the reasons why I decided to go with a pure Primaris army. I was hoping it would be a more elite and viable way to play Marines ... then they released Custodes properly and I'm a bit sad I didn't pick up those instead (but only a little bit as BA > Custodes > most other Marines in my book :P ).

[HeresyBeliever]

Death company need to be reduced in points with or without the FNP.

 

Razorback reduction in points

 

Stern guard reduction in points

 

Then I'll be happy

[Karhedron]

Do DC really need much help? Yes they are a glass cannon but they seem OK from a cost-effectiveness point of view. Mine have chomped everything from daemon hordes to tanks. Yes they frequently die but that is rather the point. ;)

 

I would like to see them get immunity from Morale seeing as they are (1) Going insane, (2) Actively looking to die gloriously in battle.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I would like to see them get immunity from Morale seeing as they are (1) Going insane, (2) Actively looking to die gloriously in battle.

They are just succumbing to mortal wounds. On failed morale tests. Remember when fearless units lost extra models at the end of the assault phase? Nothing new in that regard with these guys.

 

The problem is they are suppose to be resilient and killy. Now they are just Killy with a useless 3+ 6+++.

 

There are so many things that sport a 5+++ it wouldn't hurt if they went back to it. Though I'm not sure how much it would help them.

[durdle-durdle]

If gw gave me assault primaris marines and a cheaper transport options for the other primaris, i would shell out so much momey my wife would want a divorce.

 

As an aside, i would love if power armor ignored the first point of ap from whatever weapons. I’ve seen people suggesting rerolling saves, which i would love, as a terminator fanboy.

 

A big problem with marines is that their output aucks though. An ability similar to fury of the legion would be cool. Or giving all marines abilities like the old “chapter tactics” from 7e where you can do a turn of rerolling 1’s or better charges or whatever.

 

I feel like predators and rhinos should be t8, since theyre supposed to fight with the emperors toughest soldiers, and not be just mediocre armored.

 

Squadron preds please.

 

Please make baal preds more usable. Either having the PRED keyword for killshot or ignoring movement for ahooting would be great.

 

Make vindicators scary again

 

I’d be soo happy.

[Morticon]

You know if marines on the whole just got an additional wound across the board, there would probably be a lot of whining, and yet, very, very little in-game difference to be honest.  They wouldn't need a points adjustment, just kept as is, and be marginally playable.   

(I dont know about Death Guard, though, the mechanic with FNP is too tricky to navigate with them in consideration - or without a noticeable points increase)