Karhedron Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Yeah, they tend to value defensive capabilities too high. On the other hand, noone would like to play a game where durable units are almost unkillable. Would take the fun out of the game really quickly. This was the problem in 7th edition with Screamerstar and other units that stacked multiple defensive buffs. They could just roll forwards and chew through pretty much anything apart from an opposing Death Star. This was why my interest petered out in 7th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 The problem with deathstars was that they were impossible to kill, mobile, with good damage output and basically the whole army so there was nothing else to deal with. A Terminator unit wouldn't be even half as bad even if it were almost unkillable lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 If terminators stayed the same price but got an additional wound across the board that would probably go a long way to making them viable too, but that’s highly unlikely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 W3 would be awesome since it would reduce the efficiency of Plasma and other D1d3 weapons a LOT against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unseen Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 There's a big difference between "hard to kill" or durable for the point value, and being "unkillable". Deathstars in 7th were stastically invulnerable. The noted screamerstar was something like 97% save rate, which meant ENTIRE armies could barely scatch it. Nothing is even close to that tough in 8th, and termies have lower-than-average durability for their points currently. They need to be a lot harder to kill, and moderately more damaging to be even an average unit. Thought experiment, how many points would you pay for an invulnerable 5 man tactical squad with, say, a power fist on the sarge and a plasma gun. 100? A steal at that price. Take 20 units and win the game. 400? Maybe still worth it for 1 unit to nigh guarantee 1 objective is yours, but your going to need to take other kinds of units to actually kill stuff. 1000? Trash tier, will actively lose you any game you take it. At some pts value, a literally unkillable unit still isn't worth its pts, because it's game impact is so low. Sure, you can contest that objective and shoot a single plasma gun forever, but it doesn't matter if your opponent took over the rest of the board and wins anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 400? Maybe still worth it for 1 unit to nigh guarantee 1 objective is yours, but your going to need to take other kinds of units to actually kill stuff.Even at that value it would probably still be viable. You can have 5 in a 2000 game and thus block 5 of 6 objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 If you get to them. For 400p an AM player could put 100 Guardsmen on an objective and deny you access to it via ObSec all game long lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 The terminators would also work with an ability that reduced damage done by 1, to a minimum of 1. It would double the the plasmaEQ required to take them out, but still leaves vulnerable to proper anti-tank weapons with dam 3 or damage d6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Terminators also die against single damage weapons too fast and such a special rule wouldn't help against it at all. An additional wound would be the smoother solution there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Terminators also die against single damage weapons too fast and such a special rule wouldn't help against it at all. An additional wound would be the smoother solution there. Yeah, AP is the bane of the obstensibly 'tough' units. It's the whole reason Marines die in droves at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 Terminators also die against single damage weapons too fast and such a special rule wouldn't help against it at all. An additional wound would be the smoother solution there. Yeah, AP is the bane of the obstensibly 'tough' units. It's the whole reason Marines die in droves at the moment. Yeah TDA die in droves to a simple -1 AP as well as things like Avenger Gatling Cannons that are -2AP 2 damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Honestly if I were asked what stats Terminators should have to have them as resilient as they are usually described in fluff then I'd give them T6 and W3. That's a big jump stat-wise compared to what they have today and it would seem weird for them to have more toughness than Custodes but Lasrifles wounding them on 6s, Pulserifles wounding them on 5s and Assault Cannons wounding them on 4s sounds about right to me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Honestly if I were asked what stats Terminators should have to have them as resilient as they are usually described in fluff then I'd give them T6 and W3. That's a big jump stat-wise compared to what they have today and it would seem weird for them to have more toughness than Custodes but Lasrifles wounding them on 6s, Pulserifles wounding them on 5s and Assault Cannons wounding them on 4s sounds about right to me lol Yup. GW should have gone much further with the unshackling of Strength and Toughness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are Verlo Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 Well, one possible solution could be having wargear and weapons cost less for certain units. Codex nids have a few melee and ranged weapons that cost less for some units. And we/BA pay more for thunder Hammers and storm shields on characters. Guard pay extra for plasma guns on BS3+ models. Example (numbers just to showcase my point) Powerfist 12 pts Powerfist (terminator) 5 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 It's honestly great to have the cost for weapons and models separated, but it kinda fails at weapons having different value depending on which model takes it. If this continues we are ending with each unit having its own specific weapon entry at the back of the codex which would be a lot of bloat lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 It's honestly great to have the cost for weapons and models separated, but it kinda fails at weapons having different value depending on which model takes it. If this continues we are ending with each unit having its own specific weapon entry at the back of the codex which would be a lot of bloat lol Or they could include the costs for the unit and the upgrades in the datasheets, as it was in previous editions. I really do not understand that design choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 It's honestly great to have the cost for weapons and models separated, but it kinda fails at weapons having different value depending on which model takes it. If this continues we are ending with each unit having its own specific weapon entry at the back of the codex which would be a lot of bloat lol Or they could include the costs for the unit and the upgrades in the datasheets, as it was in previous editions. I really do not understand that design choice. I understand why they don't do that anymore tho. It lets them keep the Datasheets as they are even when adjusting the points costs for the units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ornithologist Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Points leak for BA https://imgur.com/gallery/PVf1Vsr with the grain of salt: Inferno pistols down to 7 points Plasma pistols down to 5 fists down to 9 Dante is 175 Mephi is 160 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 :cuss if that is true, encarmine swords are still at 12 and axes at 16. Madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ornithologist Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Also, the Angelus bolters are still 4 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remtek Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Vanguard vets with jump pack and stormshields less than 20 points, this is great news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Somet things not dealt with, but look like some healthy prospects. Really need to see the basic unit costs. Vanguard vets with jump pack and stormshields less than 20 points, this is great news! Definitely the winner for us at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orblivion Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Blood Talons are cheaper than Furioso Fists now as well, which makes sense. And Lemartes got 29 points slimmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 The character costs are MUCH better- but, still smart. Definitely not auto-includes, yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont-Be-Haten Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 Zero reason to take swords or axes on guard now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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