Thousand Sons build help

[Angel of Solitude]

Hey all,

 

After spending a year or so as a Dark Angels player, I'm now building a Thousand Sons army. Unsurprisingly, the two armies play very differently, and I'm struggling a bit with how to make the army effective. To that end I have a few questions that I'd appreciate some help with!

 

1. Unit size

• For Tzaangors, is it better to run say 2 units of 10, or 1 unit of 20? I've been doing the latter, but 3 games in a row they've failed their charge and have been useless.
• What's the thinking on cultists? I've seen lists where there is one large blob (30+) and a couple of minimum 10 units squads.

2. Playing with hordes

• Seems a daft question, but do you literally just walk them up the board, taking casualties and just fighting a war of attrition? Does this apply to Tzaangors and Cultists in equal measuer?

3. Anti-armour

• I've seen a few lists where it seems like they just have infantry, infantry and infantry. Last night I was playing against a marines player with a Storm Raven, a Predator, two Razorbacks and a Dreadnought. How would you counter that much armour?

4. Daemon Princes

• How do you effectively use these in combat? I seem to end up with either (1) destroying the unit and being exposed or (2) the unit falls back, which then leaves the Daemon Princes exposed to gun fire.

 

Any help would be much appreciated!

 

[Ulfast]

Very good questions. As I´m a new player too I can´t answer them but all those questions is the same that I have. So please help if you are a veteran thousands son player :)

[The Yncarne]

I have no experience with cultists or tzaangors. My lists focus on rubrics and dreads and they seem to handle hordes okay although I haven’t faced a true horde.

 

For anti-vehicle I used to rely on mortal wounds from sorcerers and predator annhilators, but armoire helverins are probably the best option, certainly in my limited experience.

 

Thousand Sons is a tough army to play in the current meta. I wouldn’t count on playing this army if you want a beat stick, it’s more of a narrative style faction IMO.

 

Good luck and have fun!

[Tyriks]

Magnus also wrecks vehicles. He wounds pretty much everything on a 2 and has a lot of attacks, plus his psychic damage.

 

Predators are pretty reliable against vehicles. I haven't liked armigers as much due to the lack of AP and bad luck with them. Psychic powers aren't a bad option for vehicles but no reason not to use both.

 

With Tzaangors I go back and forth between a big unit and two smaller units. If I have two smaller units I usually don't put them in the webway (or only one).

 

Rubrics and Scarab Occult Terminators have been my favorite anti horde. Their guns have enough shots to remove huge chunks of big units but even if you're shooting at marines or tougher units they are very dangerous due to the AP. With Prescience and Veterans of the Long War they can be pretty reliable at killing anything from light armor down.

 

For DPs I use them more as a threat/deterrent. Like you said they're easy find left in the wind but they can do enough damage on the way that people hate them and hold things back to deny them targets, so I use them for that. I just picked up the Ogroid Thaumaturge to make a second DP so I'm looking forward to running two.

 

Having said all that, I'm not playing in tournaments, but I do very well in my local group.

[Angel of Solitude]

Thanks all for your input so far.

 

@Tyriks I share your pain with the Armigers. They're awesome models, but they just do not synergise - you can't buff them with auras/psychic, and unless you take a big knight, then you don't get any command points. An assault D3 profile on the Thermal Lance version is just hopeless.

 

I have a few squads of Rubrics, do you drop them into squads of 10, or smaller squads of 5?

 

I think Predators are likely to be my next choice, but I'm interested to hear how people get on with the other Heavy Support choices?

[Tyriks]

The only other Heavy Support units I have right now are two Butcher Leviathans. I love those. They can kill ANYTHING. Veterans means they are wounding Knights on 3s with 16 shots.

 

I field Rubrics in all sizes. I use 5 man units as disposable sorcerers (just don't use their baby smite and they're quite efficient) and I use 20 man units to deep strike and slaughter.

[Raven1]

1. Unit size

• For Tzaangors, if you are going to deepstrike 1 larger squad, but a few smaller squads can work to fill out a battalion (there are cheaper screens though) with the horn you get +1" to charges and with a comman point reroll it is likely but not guaranteed. Plus you need to wrap an enemy to keep them from fleeing.
• i dont have cultists but they arent usuless. You can still rapid fire like anyone else with VotlW

2. Playing with hordes

• Personally playing against hordes deepstrike i deepstrike pink horrors kill screens and move in with deamon princes or tzaangors or whatever. Playing as a horde i usually run brimestone horrors and screen out my deployment zone and smite spam.

3. Anti-armour

• Dreadnoughts can work. Predators are better than vindicators. When in doubt drown it in Smites. Demon princes aldo do good work. Twin claws mathmatically is the superior choice. Questor Traitoris? I haven't used them but i hear good things.

4. Daemon Princes

• You will never go wrong with Smites. They dont go it alone. If you are going to go into melee bring alon friends that can wrap a squad(s) or vehicle.

Any help would be much appreciated!

 

I usually run a fairly basic list. I run a double battalion maybe with a supreme command detachment. I like to maximize the TS benefits which is no penalties to smite and extra range for psychic powers.

 

I max out HQ choices. I always run Ahriman and i have 2 demon princes and i plan on a 3. My warlord trait is the +1 to psychic powers.

 

Min rubrics if i run them. Otherwise maybe Tzaangors and i have been eyeing cultists recently.

 

The other battalion is tzeentch demons for cheap screens and a pink horror bomb. In high point games i might run Magnus too.

 

I have been planning on adding some knights too. They seem too good not to find some room.

[Angel of Solitude]

@Tyriks - a Leviathan is certainly a nice point investment, and you run two? :o

 

Deredeos are cheaper and can also be armed with the Butcher array, do you have any experience of them?

 

@Raven1 thanks for the responses. How many brimstones would you run in your Daemon detachment, and also what HQs would you take?

[Tyriks]

I haven't run a deredeo for a couple reasons. One, if I'm spending that much on a model, I want it to look better than that. Two, deredeo costs more for what you get. They only take one Butcher array compared to the Leviathans two, so you're spending more than 2/3 the cost for 1/2 the shots (229 versus 329). Third, they're easier to kill at t7 and 3+ save. Fourth, even the flamer is better on a Leviathan. Finally, should anything make it into combat with one it is way more screwed than the Leviathan, hitting on 4s and with half as many attacks.

 

For all of those disadvantages, what do you get? Every other turn you can hit a flyer on a 2? Horrible! Just hit a Leviathan with prescience and you'll do way more damage to a flyer and you don't have to wait a turn to do it again. Deredeo was great in 7th when flyers were basically unkillable to normal stuff, but now that flyers are merely inconvenient they grossly over point those sky fire abilities. If a deredeo just always had +1 to hit things with fly keyword and could still move normally, maybe. But having to stand still every other turn for it stinks. And what it will do for the cost is not enough.

 

So, yeah, Leviathans are expensive, but running two together makes for a very potent threat.

[Raven1]

@Raven1 thanks for the responses. How many brimstones would you run in your Daemon detachment, and also what HQs would you take?

I have 40 brimestone and 30 pink horrors. I also run a herald on foot to buff the brimestone horrors, and the changeling.

 

TS side either demon princes or ahriman/sorcerer on disks to spread the buffs

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I haven't run a deredeo for a couple reasons. One, if I'm spending that much on a model, I want it to look better than that. Two, deredeo costs more for what you get. They only take one Butcher array compared to the Leviathans two, so you're spending more than 2/3 the cost for 1/2 the shots (229 versus 329). Third, they're easier to kill at t7 and 3+ save. Fourth, even the flamer is better on a Leviathan. Finally, should anything make it into combat with one it is way more screwed than the Leviathan, hitting on 4s and with half as many attacks.

 

For all of those disadvantages, what do you get? Every other turn you can hit a flyer on a 2? Horrible! Just hit a Leviathan with prescience and you'll do way more damage to a flyer and you don't have to wait a turn to do it again. Deredeo was great in 7th when flyers were basically unkillable to normal stuff, but now that flyers are merely inconvenient they grossly over point those sky fire abilities. If a deredeo just always had +1 to hit things with fly keyword and could still move normally, maybe. But having to stand still every other turn for it stinks. And what it will do for the cost is not enough.

 

So, yeah, Leviathans are expensive, but running two together makes for a very potent threat.

Also, Thousand Sons really don't need the Hellfire Veil since most of our stuff has invulns already.

 

Speaking of invulns....

 

I personally just cover the table in Rubrics and Tzaangors, add Termies and Daemon Princes for spice and rely on the various flavors of Sorcerer for everything else. Works fine for me. Occasionally I add Tzeentch Daemons.

 

I do own a Defiler, a Forgefiend, a Contemptor, and a Vortex Beast. I originally fielded tanks and Helbrutes, but lately I don't want to put anything on the table that doesn't have an Invuln.

[Angel of Solitude]

@Tyriks - it turns out that I hadn't read the FAQ for the Forgeworld stuff, and so didn't realise that you could take two butcher arrays on a single Leviathan...I completely get now why you'd pick that over the Deredeo. The only problem I have is that my next tournament doesn't allow Forgeworld models :(

 

@Raven1 - cheers, presumably that's 2x20 brimstones and 1x30 pink?

 

@GreaterChickenofTzeentch how does the Defiler compare with the Forgefiend?

[Raven1]

3-4 x10

 

Better for morale

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

@Tyriks - it turns out that I hadn't read the FAQ for the Forgeworld stuff, and so didn't realise that you could take two butcher arrays on a single Leviathan...I completely get now why you'd pick that over the Deredeo. The only problem I have is that my next tournament doesn't allow Forgeworld models :(

 

@Raven1 - cheers, presumably that's 2x20 brimstones and 1x30 pink?

 

@GreaterChickenofTzeentch how does the Defiler compare with the Forgefiend?

Forgefiend shoots more consistently, especially with buffs. Defiler has better antitank capability available if you want to get spendy, but it's not as consistent. However, the Defiler hits way harder in CC, covers a huge amount of space for things like Warpflame Gargoyles, and has 2 more wounds.

 

When I use them I use one of each with the Defiler in an advancing CC role. If you kit the Defiler out, it can sit back, shoot, and countercharge instead.

[antique_nova]

Hey all,

 

After spending a year or so as a Dark Angels player, I'm now building a Thousand Sons army. Unsurprisingly, the two armies play very differently, and I'm struggling a bit with how to make the army effective. To that end I have a few questions that I'd appreciate some help with!

 

1. Unit size

• For Tzaangors, is it better to run say 2 units of 10, or 1 unit of 20? I've been doing the latter, but 3 games in a row they've failed their charge and have been useless.
• What's the thinking on cultists? I've seen lists where there is one large blob (30+) and a couple of minimum 10 units squads.

2. Playing with hordes

• Seems a daft question, but do you literally just walk them up the board, taking casualties and just fighting a war of attrition? Does this apply to Tzaangors and Cultists in equal measuer?

3. Anti-armour

• I've seen a few lists where it seems like they just have infantry, infantry and infantry. Last night I was playing against a marines player with a Storm Raven, a Predator, two Razorbacks and a Dreadnought. How would you counter that much armour?

4. Daemon Princes

• How do you effectively use these in combat? I seem to end up with either (1) destroying the unit and being exposed or (2) the unit falls back, which then leaves the Daemon Princes exposed to gun fire.

 

Any help would be much appreciated!

A few questions I have first if you don't mind.

 

What are you aiming for? Fluff? Fun? Or you want to destroy your enemies on the table and their souls in microseconds! :P

 

Is this a army I start with now and expand on later or do you want an end game army that you're working for from the beginning.

 

Do you allow allies? Because TS, seriously need it to be truly competitive as their firepower is crap since it's limited to mostly predators and hellbrutes.

 

Any must haves? Because if you want the best, tzaangors are the way to go. Hands down.

[BoomWolf]

Well, with CA in two weeks, anything we say could be rendered irrelevant soon.

 

Forget the changes to TS points changing the efficiency of our units, EVERYONE is getting adjusted, so we can expect the Mets might shift heavily.

[Angel of Solitude]

@antique_nova it's a good question. I'm mostly a casual player, but my gaming group has its fair share of tournament regulars so the lists have a somewhat competitive edge to them. My army choices are fluff-based, but I want to give myself as much of an edge as I can.

 

My ultimate aim for this army is to take it to a team tournament in June, so I've got a while to build (and paint!) the army. I've read enough of the good stuff here to understand that Tzaangors are where it's at, and currently have 20 built, with a further 10 to go. I've got a Mutalith Vortex Beast on order too, as (1) they look cool. and (2) I'm hoping they'll synergise well with the Tzaangors.

 

So the real question for me is still that anti-armour piece. A few weeks ago I played Ad Mech and struggled. The other week I played a vehicle-heavy Ultramarines list and struggled. If anti-armour is available from allies, then where should I be looking? It's worth noting that my tournament in June doesn't allow Forgeworld.

 

One other question - is it worth running cultists from the Heretic Astartes codex to get the benefit of Tide of Traitors? If so, then which legion?

 

Cheers all.

[sneakybamsen]

Yes, Alpha Legion cultists are way better than thousand sons equivalent. But since they will most likely go up in cost and the -1 to hit will be changed to something else (both with Chapter Approved), in two weeks cultists will be less hot. Thousand sons are limited in anti-tank, but if you want to squeeze out damage, you should probably limit the amount of TS units to mainly psykers, and bring daemons for screens. I played against one of those lists at a team tournament in november, and they do put out hurt. He tabled my knights in three turns. It all depends how fluffy you want it, I guess.

 

I'd definitely wait with decisions untill after CA. Rumours also have it that tzaangors might go slightly up in cost while rubrics and SoT's will be cheaper (hooray!) :)

[Skerr]

Depending how points shake out and if rumors of full smite ago for aspiring and SOT sorcerers i plan on having a few more smiters to deal with anti tank. Maybe even some 10 point warpflamers.

[antique_nova]

@antique_nova it's a good question. I'm mostly a casual player, but my gaming group has its fair share of tournament regulars so the lists have a somewhat competitive edge to them. My army choices are fluff-based, but I want to give myself as much of an edge as I can.

 

My ultimate aim for this army is to take it to a team tournament in June, so I've got a while to build (and paint!) the army. I've read enough of the good stuff here to understand that Tzaangors are where it's at, and currently have 20 built, with a further 10 to go. I've got a Mutalith Vortex Beast on order too, as (1) they look cool. and (2) I'm hoping they'll synergise well with the Tzaangors.

 

So the real question for me is still that anti-armour piece. A few weeks ago I played Ad Mech and struggled. The other week I played a vehicle-heavy Ultramarines list and struggled. If anti-armour is available from allies, then where should I be looking? It's worth noting that my tournament in June doesn't allow Forgeworld.

 

One other question - is it worth running cultists from the Heretic Astartes codex to get the benefit of Tide of Traitors? If so, then which legion?

 

Cheers all.

 

What kind of fluffed based army are you going for, because it seems you've accepted tzaangors, but that seems to be a more competitive based decision than a fluff one. So, it would help if I knew what your fluff was based on.

 

Also, here is the link to the screenshots of the new points changes.

 

https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/breaking-complete-40k-chapter-approved-points-changes.html

 

As for anti-tank. I use smite, tzaangors (buffed with veterans of the long war and either [sTRATAGEM] Prescience or a nearby shaman and don't forget to use Dark Matter Crystal and warp time them) or Obliterators (buffed with veterans of the long war and [sTRATAGEM] Prescience with a chaos lord nearby and [sTRATAGEM] Endless cacophany).

 

I'm telling you right now, that 3 units of obliterators with a chaos lord with those buffs are the best anti-vehicle/multi-wound unit in the game and damage per points. Period. Nothing else comes close. Not even dark reapers, who are already bloody amazing.

 

I also don't use forgeworld, because they can't beat what's in the codexes.

 

In regards to your other question. No, because of competitiveness and here's why.

 

1. I never picked them for my personal GT army, even when they were 4 points and now they are 5 points per piece.

2. Poorly equipped compared to tzaangors. (They have no AP weaponry and no standard access to S4 weaponry, whereas tzaangors have both)

3. Don't have an invul save (Tzaangors have a 5++)

4. Buffs don't stack as well on them as do on Tzaangors

5. Lack any uniqueness (tzaangors have both specific buffs only to them and excel against all characters)

6. Points cost too similar to tzaangors.

 

Sure, you can get almost a full squad back, but your deployment choices are very limited.

 

You can also grab 200 cultists in a 1750 points list and slap on abaddon, a chaos lord with the fearless trait and a few daemon princes. But here's the thing. A unit of 30 tzaangors can wipe out on average 83 cultists in a single turn with Dark Matter Crystal, a shaman nearby giving buffs, warptime and the stratagems veterans of the long war and endless slaughter. That's already double their points back (when factoring just the tzaangors without buffing characters) and we haven't even started on all the buffs to protect the unit such as +1 to invul save, -1 to hit that unit.

 

That unit I just mentioned is more than enough to kill full health Magnus the Red or Mortarion in a SINGLE round of combat. (well one phase, but fighting twice).

 

No cultist unit can do that or even match that. Not even a full unit of horrors can match that. Sure, they may have a better invul by one, but they're also toughness 3 like the cultists. If the horrors had AP1 weapons, then I might consider them, but sadly, they don't.

 

Also, I don't believe that you've mentioned just how many points you and your buddy will be taking. And what do you mean by a team tournament? Do you mean 2v2s or 1v1s?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

@antique_nova it's a good question. I'm mostly a casual player, but my gaming group has its fair share of tournament regulars so the lists have a somewhat competitive edge to them. My army choices are fluff-based, but I want to give myself as much of an edge as I can.

 

My ultimate aim for this army is to take it to a team tournament in June, so I've got a while to build (and paint!) the army. I've read enough of the good stuff here to understand that Tzaangors are where it's at, and currently have 20 built, with a further 10 to go. I've got a Mutalith Vortex Beast on order too, as (1) they look cool. and (2) I'm hoping they'll synergise well with the Tzaangors.

 

So the real question for me is still that anti-armour piece. A few weeks ago I played Ad Mech and struggled. The other week I played a vehicle-heavy Ultramarines list and struggled. If anti-armour is available from allies, then where should I be looking? It's worth noting that my tournament in June doesn't allow Forgeworld.

 

One other question - is it worth running cultists from the Heretic Astartes codex to get the benefit of Tide of Traitors? If so, then which legion?

 

Cheers all.

 

What kind of fluffed based army are you going for, because it seems you've accepted tzaangors, but that seems to be a more competitive based decision than a fluff one. So, it would help if I knew what your fluff was based on.

 

Also, here is the link to the screenshots of the new points changes.

 

https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/breaking-complete-40k-chapter-approved-points-changes.html

 

As for anti-tank. I use smite, tzaangors (buffed with veterans of the long war and either [sTRATAGEM] Prescience or a nearby shaman and don't forget to use Dark Matter Crystal and warp time them) or Obliterators (buffed with veterans of the long war and [sTRATAGEM] Prescience with a chaos lord nearby and [sTRATAGEM] Endless cacophany).

 

I'm telling you right now, that 3 units of obliterators with a chaos lord with those buffs are the best anti-vehicle/multi-wound unit in the game and damage per points. Period. Nothing else comes close. Not even dark reapers, who are already bloody amazing.

 

I also don't use forgeworld, because they can't beat what's in the codexes.

 

In regards to your other question. No, because of competitiveness and here's why.

 

1. I never picked them for my personal GT army, even when they were 4 points and now they are 5 points per piece.

2. Poorly equipped compared to tzaangors. (They have no AP weaponry and no standard access to S4 weaponry, whereas tzaangors have both)

3. Don't have an invul save (Tzaangors have a 5++)

4. Buffs don't stack as well on them as do on Tzaangors

5. Lack any uniqueness (tzaangors have both specific buffs only to them and excel against all characters)

6. Points cost too similar to tzaangors.

 

Sure, you can get almost a full squad back, but your deployment choices are very limited.

 

You can also grab 200 cultists in a 1750 points list and slap on abaddon, a chaos lord with the fearless trait and a few daemon princes. But here's the thing. A unit of 30 tzaangors can wipe out on average 83 cultists in a single turn with Dark Matter Crystal, a shaman nearby giving buffs, warptime and the stratagems veterans of the long war and endless slaughter. That's already double their points back (when factoring just the tzaangors without buffing characters) and we haven't even started on all the buffs to protect the unit such as +1 to invul save, -1 to hit that unit.

 

That unit I just mentioned is more than enough to kill full health Magnus the Red or Mortarion in a SINGLE round of combat. (well one phase, but fighting twice).

 

No cultist unit can do that or even match that. Not even a full unit of horrors can match that. Sure, they may have a better invul by one, but they're also toughness 3 like the cultists. If the horrors had AP1 weapons, then I might consider them, but sadly, they don't.

 

Also, I don't believe that you've mentioned just how many points you and your buddy will be taking. And what do you mean by a team tournament? Do you mean 2v2s or 1v1s?

 

 

Also, let's not forget that Tzaangors can degrade the typical Castellan build in one fight phase if you spend a bunch of CP. It has to be a Character to take Cawl's Wrath, after all. :)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

@antique_nova it's a good question. I'm mostly a casual player, but my gaming group has its fair share of tournament regulars so the lists have a somewhat competitive edge to them. My army choices are fluff-based, but I want to give myself as much of an edge as I can.

 

My ultimate aim for this army is to take it to a team tournament in June, so I've got a while to build (and paint!) the army. I've read enough of the good stuff here to understand that Tzaangors are where it's at, and currently have 20 built, with a further 10 to go. I've got a Mutalith Vortex Beast on order too, as (1) they look cool. and (2) I'm hoping they'll synergise well with the Tzaangors.

 

So the real question for me is still that anti-armour piece. A few weeks ago I played Ad Mech and struggled. The other week I played a vehicle-heavy Ultramarines list and struggled. If anti-armour is available from allies, then where should I be looking? It's worth noting that my tournament in June doesn't allow Forgeworld.

 

One other question - is it worth running cultists from the Heretic Astartes codex to get the benefit of Tide of Traitors? If so, then which legion?

 

Cheers all.

 

What kind of fluffed based army are you going for, because it seems you've accepted tzaangors, but that seems to be a more competitive based decision than a fluff one. So, it would help if I knew what your fluff was based on.

 

Also, here is the link to the screenshots of the new points changes.

 

https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/breaking-complete-40k-chapter-approved-points-changes.html

 

As for anti-tank. I use smite, tzaangors (buffed with veterans of the long war and either [sTRATAGEM] Prescience or a nearby shaman and don't forget to use Dark Matter Crystal and warp time them) or Obliterators (buffed with veterans of the long war and [sTRATAGEM] Prescience with a chaos lord nearby and [sTRATAGEM] Endless cacophany).

 

I'm telling you right now, that 3 units of obliterators with a chaos lord with those buffs are the best anti-vehicle/multi-wound unit in the game and damage per points. Period. Nothing else comes close. Not even dark reapers, who are already bloody amazing.

 

I also don't use forgeworld, because they can't beat what's in the codexes.

 

In regards to your other question. No, because of competitiveness and here's why.

 

1. I never picked them for my personal GT army, even when they were 4 points and now they are 5 points per piece.

2. Poorly equipped compared to tzaangors. (They have no AP weaponry and no standard access to S4 weaponry, whereas tzaangors have both)

3. Don't have an invul save (Tzaangors have a 5++)

4. Buffs don't stack as well on them as do on Tzaangors

5. Lack any uniqueness (tzaangors have both specific buffs only to them and excel against all characters)

6. Points cost too similar to tzaangors.

 

Sure, you can get almost a full squad back, but your deployment choices are very limited.

 

You can also grab 200 cultists in a 1750 points list and slap on abaddon, a chaos lord with the fearless trait and a few daemon princes. But here's the thing. A unit of 30 tzaangors can wipe out on average 83 cultists in a single turn with Dark Matter Crystal, a shaman nearby giving buffs, warptime and the stratagems veterans of the long war and endless slaughter. That's already double their points back (when factoring just the tzaangors without buffing characters) and we haven't even started on all the buffs to protect the unit such as +1 to invul save, -1 to hit that unit.

 

That unit I just mentioned is more than enough to kill full health Magnus the Red or Mortarion in a SINGLE round of combat. (well one phase, but fighting twice).

 

No cultist unit can do that or even match that. Not even a full unit of horrors can match that. Sure, they may have a better invul by one, but they're also toughness 3 like the cultists. If the horrors had AP1 weapons, then I might consider them, but sadly, they don't.

 

Also, I don't believe that you've mentioned just how many points you and your buddy will be taking. And what do you mean by a team tournament? Do you mean 2v2s or 1v1s?

 

 

Also, let's not forget that Tzaangors can degrade the typical Castellan build in one fight phase if you spend a bunch of CP. It has to be a Character to take Cawl's Wrath, after all.

 

One more thing.....

 

3 x Tzeentch Oblits can actually work. However, it's an entire playstyle rather than a simple add-on:

 

Flickering Flames gives +1 to Wound to Tzeentch Daemons in the Shooting Phase. Combining with Prescience and Vets is hilarious. Daemon Prince nearby gives reroll 1's, too.

 

Weaver of Fates can improve Invuln on one unit, then a nearby Herald can improve Strength on both the Oblits AND the Prince, plus cast Boon of Change and use the other Locus to make 1/6 of enemy attacks fail against all 5 units in CC.

 

If you don't want the Strength bonus, you can use the Changeling for 6+ wound ignore and some CC shenanigans.

 

Gaze of Fate can likewise reroll bad Strength/AP/Damage rolls

 

If someone tries to charge to tarpit, they get mulched by a combination of Overwatch, the Prince, somewhere between 9 and 12 Str 7 attacks, some of which hit on 2's (Prescience carrying over), and the fact that 1/6 of their attacks will FAIL AUTOMATICALLY against all 5 units.

 

Then all of a sudden they're close enough for Inferno Bolter double taps and Tzaangor countercharges.

 

This will be roughly 900 points of your army, but it's 900 points that has multiple broad uses and can be null and/or partially deployed as you wish.

 

The rest can be a mix of Rubrics, goats, and Daemons. Exalted Flamers will make the above even worse because of their firepower, their insane efficiency with Strength buffs, and the fact that they can Heroically Intervene on your opponent's turn before firing D6 auto-hitting Pink Fire shots in CC next round via Pistols to help clear the tarpit at Str 6 AP-2 (buffed by the Herald).

 

You must commit to going Daemon-heavy (at least a Herald and some Horrors or Exalted Flamers, plus out of Legion Oblits and another HQ)......but wow will it hurt people.

[antique_nova]

 

 

 

@antique_nova it's a good question. I'm mostly a casual player, but my gaming group has its fair share of tournament regulars so the lists have a somewhat competitive edge to them. My army choices are fluff-based, but I want to give myself as much of an edge as I can.

 

My ultimate aim for this army is to take it to a team tournament in June, so I've got a while to build (and paint!) the army. I've read enough of the good stuff here to understand that Tzaangors are where it's at, and currently have 20 built, with a further 10 to go. I've got a Mutalith Vortex Beast on order too, as (1) they look cool. and (2) I'm hoping they'll synergise well with the Tzaangors.

 

So the real question for me is still that anti-armour piece. A few weeks ago I played Ad Mech and struggled. The other week I played a vehicle-heavy Ultramarines list and struggled. If anti-armour is available from allies, then where should I be looking? It's worth noting that my tournament in June doesn't allow Forgeworld.

 

One other question - is it worth running cultists from the Heretic Astartes codex to get the benefit of Tide of Traitors? If so, then which legion?

 

Cheers all.

 

What kind of fluffed based army are you going for, because it seems you've accepted tzaangors, but that seems to be a more competitive based decision than a fluff one. So, it would help if I knew what your fluff was based on.

 

Also, here is the link to the screenshots of the new points changes.

 

https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/breaking-complete-40k-chapter-approved-points-changes.html

 

As for anti-tank. I use smite, tzaangors (buffed with veterans of the long war and either [sTRATAGEM] Prescience or a nearby shaman and don't forget to use Dark Matter Crystal and warp time them) or Obliterators (buffed with veterans of the long war and [sTRATAGEM] Prescience with a chaos lord nearby and [sTRATAGEM] Endless cacophany).

 

I'm telling you right now, that 3 units of obliterators with a chaos lord with those buffs are the best anti-vehicle/multi-wound unit in the game and damage per points. Period. Nothing else comes close. Not even dark reapers, who are already bloody amazing.

 

I also don't use forgeworld, because they can't beat what's in the codexes.

 

In regards to your other question. No, because of competitiveness and here's why.

 

1. I never picked them for my personal GT army, even when they were 4 points and now they are 5 points per piece.

2. Poorly equipped compared to tzaangors. (They have no AP weaponry and no standard access to S4 weaponry, whereas tzaangors have both)

3. Don't have an invul save (Tzaangors have a 5++)

4. Buffs don't stack as well on them as do on Tzaangors

5. Lack any uniqueness (tzaangors have both specific buffs only to them and excel against all characters)

6. Points cost too similar to tzaangors.

 

Sure, you can get almost a full squad back, but your deployment choices are very limited.

 

You can also grab 200 cultists in a 1750 points list and slap on abaddon, a chaos lord with the fearless trait and a few daemon princes. But here's the thing. A unit of 30 tzaangors can wipe out on average 83 cultists in a single turn with Dark Matter Crystal, a shaman nearby giving buffs, warptime and the stratagems veterans of the long war and endless slaughter. That's already double their points back (when factoring just the tzaangors without buffing characters) and we haven't even started on all the buffs to protect the unit such as +1 to invul save, -1 to hit that unit.

 

That unit I just mentioned is more than enough to kill full health Magnus the Red or Mortarion in a SINGLE round of combat. (well one phase, but fighting twice).

 

No cultist unit can do that or even match that. Not even a full unit of horrors can match that. Sure, they may have a better invul by one, but they're also toughness 3 like the cultists. If the horrors had AP1 weapons, then I might consider them, but sadly, they don't.

 

Also, I don't believe that you've mentioned just how many points you and your buddy will be taking. And what do you mean by a team tournament? Do you mean 2v2s or 1v1s?

 

 

Also, let's not forget that Tzaangors can degrade the typical Castellan build in one fight phase if you spend a bunch of CP. It has to be a Character to take Cawl's Wrath, after all.

 

One more thing.....

 

3 x Tzeentch Oblits can actually work. However, it's an entire playstyle rather than a simple add-on:

 

Flickering Flames gives +1 to Wound to Tzeentch Daemons in the Shooting Phase. Combining with Prescience and Vets is hilarious. Daemon Prince nearby gives reroll 1's, too.

 

Weaver of Fates can improve Invuln on one unit, then a nearby Herald can improve Strength on both the Oblits AND the Prince, plus cast Boon of Change and use the other Locus to make 1/6 of enemy attacks fail against all 5 units in CC.

 

If you don't want the Strength bonus, you can use the Changeling for 6+ wound ignore and some CC shenanigans.

 

Gaze of Fate can likewise reroll bad Strength/AP/Damage rolls

 

If someone tries to charge to tarpit, they get mulched by a combination of Overwatch, the Prince, somewhere between 9 and 12 Str 7 attacks, some of which hit on 2's (Prescience carrying over), and the fact that 1/6 of their attacks will FAIL AUTOMATICALLY against all 5 units.

 

Then all of a sudden they're close enough for Inferno Bolter double taps and Tzaangor countercharges.

 

This will be roughly 900 points of your army, but it's 900 points that has multiple broad uses and can be null and/or partially deployed as you wish.

 

The rest can be a mix of Rubrics, goats, and Daemons. Exalted Flamers will make the above even worse because of their firepower, their insane efficiency with Strength buffs, and the fact that they can Heroically Intervene on your opponent's turn before firing D6 auto-hitting Pink Fire shots in CC next round via Pistols to help clear the tarpit at Str 6 AP-2 (buffed by the Herald).

 

You must commit to going Daemon-heavy (at least a Herald and some Horrors or Exalted Flamers, plus out of Legion Oblits and another HQ)......but wow will it hurt people.

 

 

My chaos lord already gives rerolls on ones and while tzeentch may work well, it's only insurance for strength. From normally wounding on 3s and sometimes 4s on most things large and dangerous from +2 to wound.

 

However, the slaneesh version is far more powerful, because the averages from that yields far more wounds than the tzeentch version. About 33-50% extra wounds on average.

 

Gaze of fate is okay, but not worth it for me. Considering how my army is set up and i have the CP reroll. I have more than enough CP for it.

 

Plus the +6 ignore wounds is pretty useless. It's so rare that it's not worth even considering. But I understand that it's just a nice bonus.

 

The loci is powerful yes, but if someone charges your obliterators, your biggest problem won't be the fact they can kill your obliterators, but the fact that they can tie up your oblits. Daemon Prince or not nearby. In fact, your opponent shouldn't really be able to charge your obliterators. EVER. Not even once and if they ever do after DS, you better have something that can do more damage to your opponent than those oblits in that turn.

 

I also never use any spells but prescience on my obliterators. They don't need anything else and if you're using weaver of fates on your oblits, then you're using them wrong IMO, but If I were your opponent, I'd just target the one that doesn't have weaver of fates. Nor would I bother dispelling it.

 

Flamers and the tactics you've mentioned are nice, but cost way too much for what they do compared to what my list can do for points. I'm also not a fan of horrors. As I just don't think they're good enough to use at the highest levels.

 

Also, the loci doesn't really work for tzaangors, because I've discovered that most people would rather shoot them than ever engage them in CC and when they do fight my guys in close combat, their's barely anything left of them. :/

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

 

@antique_nova it's a good question. I'm mostly a casual player, but my gaming group has its fair share of tournament regulars so the lists have a somewhat competitive edge to them. My army choices are fluff-based, but I want to give myself as much of an edge as I can.

 

My ultimate aim for this army is to take it to a team tournament in June, so I've got a while to build (and paint!) the army. I've read enough of the good stuff here to understand that Tzaangors are where it's at, and currently have 20 built, with a further 10 to go. I've got a Mutalith Vortex Beast on order too, as (1) they look cool. and (2) I'm hoping they'll synergise well with the Tzaangors.

 

So the real question for me is still that anti-armour piece. A few weeks ago I played Ad Mech and struggled. The other week I played a vehicle-heavy Ultramarines list and struggled. If anti-armour is available from allies, then where should I be looking? It's worth noting that my tournament in June doesn't allow Forgeworld.

 

One other question - is it worth running cultists from the Heretic Astartes codex to get the benefit of Tide of Traitors? If so, then which legion?

 

Cheers all.

 

What kind of fluffed based army are you going for, because it seems you've accepted tzaangors, but that seems to be a more competitive based decision than a fluff one. So, it would help if I knew what your fluff was based on.

 

Also, here is the link to the screenshots of the new points changes.

 

https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/breaking-complete-40k-chapter-approved-points-changes.html

 

As for anti-tank. I use smite, tzaangors (buffed with veterans of the long war and either [sTRATAGEM] Prescience or a nearby shaman and don't forget to use Dark Matter Crystal and warp time them) or Obliterators (buffed with veterans of the long war and [sTRATAGEM] Prescience with a chaos lord nearby and [sTRATAGEM] Endless cacophany).

 

I'm telling you right now, that 3 units of obliterators with a chaos lord with those buffs are the best anti-vehicle/multi-wound unit in the game and damage per points. Period. Nothing else comes close. Not even dark reapers, who are already bloody amazing.

 

I also don't use forgeworld, because they can't beat what's in the codexes.

 

In regards to your other question. No, because of competitiveness and here's why.

 

1. I never picked them for my personal GT army, even when they were 4 points and now they are 5 points per piece.

2. Poorly equipped compared to tzaangors. (They have no AP weaponry and no standard access to S4 weaponry, whereas tzaangors have both)

3. Don't have an invul save (Tzaangors have a 5++)

4. Buffs don't stack as well on them as do on Tzaangors

5. Lack any uniqueness (tzaangors have both specific buffs only to them and excel against all characters)

6. Points cost too similar to tzaangors.

 

Sure, you can get almost a full squad back, but your deployment choices are very limited.

 

You can also grab 200 cultists in a 1750 points list and slap on abaddon, a chaos lord with the fearless trait and a few daemon princes. But here's the thing. A unit of 30 tzaangors can wipe out on average 83 cultists in a single turn with Dark Matter Crystal, a shaman nearby giving buffs, warptime and the stratagems veterans of the long war and endless slaughter. That's already double their points back (when factoring just the tzaangors without buffing characters) and we haven't even started on all the buffs to protect the unit such as +1 to invul save, -1 to hit that unit.

 

That unit I just mentioned is more than enough to kill full health Magnus the Red or Mortarion in a SINGLE round of combat. (well one phase, but fighting twice).

 

No cultist unit can do that or even match that. Not even a full unit of horrors can match that. Sure, they may have a better invul by one, but they're also toughness 3 like the cultists. If the horrors had AP1 weapons, then I might consider them, but sadly, they don't.

 

Also, I don't believe that you've mentioned just how many points you and your buddy will be taking. And what do you mean by a team tournament? Do you mean 2v2s or 1v1s?

 

 

Also, let's not forget that Tzaangors can degrade the typical Castellan build in one fight phase if you spend a bunch of CP. It has to be a Character to take Cawl's Wrath, after all.

 

One more thing.....

 

3 x Tzeentch Oblits can actually work. However, it's an entire playstyle rather than a simple add-on:

 

Flickering Flames gives +1 to Wound to Tzeentch Daemons in the Shooting Phase. Combining with Prescience and Vets is hilarious. Daemon Prince nearby gives reroll 1's, too.

 

Weaver of Fates can improve Invuln on one unit, then a nearby Herald can improve Strength on both the Oblits AND the Prince, plus cast Boon of Change and use the other Locus to make 1/6 of enemy attacks fail against all 5 units in CC.

 

If you don't want the Strength bonus, you can use the Changeling for 6+ wound ignore and some CC shenanigans.

 

Gaze of Fate can likewise reroll bad Strength/AP/Damage rolls

 

If someone tries to charge to tarpit, they get mulched by a combination of Overwatch, the Prince, somewhere between 9 and 12 Str 7 attacks, some of which hit on 2's (Prescience carrying over), and the fact that 1/6 of their attacks will FAIL AUTOMATICALLY against all 5 units.

 

Then all of a sudden they're close enough for Inferno Bolter double taps and Tzaangor countercharges.

 

This will be roughly 900 points of your army, but it's 900 points that has multiple broad uses and can be null and/or partially deployed as you wish.

 

The rest can be a mix of Rubrics, goats, and Daemons. Exalted Flamers will make the above even worse because of their firepower, their insane efficiency with Strength buffs, and the fact that they can Heroically Intervene on your opponent's turn before firing D6 auto-hitting Pink Fire shots in CC next round via Pistols to help clear the tarpit at Str 6 AP-2 (buffed by the Herald).

 

You must commit to going Daemon-heavy (at least a Herald and some Horrors or Exalted Flamers, plus out of Legion Oblits and another HQ)......but wow will it hurt people.

 

 

My chaos lord already gives rerolls on ones and while tzeentch may work well, it's only insurance for strength. From normally wounding on 3s and sometimes 4s on most things large and dangerous from +2 to wound.

 

However, the slaneesh version is far more powerful, because the averages from that yields far more wounds than the tzeentch version. About 33-50% extra wounds on average.

 

Gaze of fate is okay, but not worth it for me. Considering how my army is set up and i have the CP reroll. I have more than enough CP for it.

 

Plus the +6 ignore wounds is pretty useless. It's so rare that it's not worth even considering. But I understand that it's just a nice bonus.

 

The loci is powerful yes, but if someone charges your obliterators, your biggest problem won't be the fact they can kill your obliterators, but the fact that they can tie up your oblits. Daemon Prince or not nearby. In fact, your opponent shouldn't really be able to charge your obliterators. EVER. Not even once and if they ever do after DS, you better have something that can do more damage to your opponent than those oblits in that turn.

 

I also never use any spells but prescience on my obliterators. They don't need anything else and if you're using weaver of fates on your oblits, then you're using them wrong IMO, but If I were your opponent, I'd just target the one that doesn't have weaver of fates. Nor would I bother dispelling it.

 

Flamers and the tactics you've mentioned are nice, but cost way too much for what they do compared to what my list can do for points. I'm also not a fan of horrors. As I just don't think they're good enough to use at the highest levels.

 

Also, the loci doesn't really work for tzaangors, because I've discovered that most people would rather shoot them than ever engage them in CC and when they do fight my guys in close combat, their's barely anything left of them. :/

 

Loci don't work for Tzaangors anyway (barring Enlightened or the Shaman). Not daemons.

 

Using a combination of Gaze of Fate and a CP reroll, you can correct bad rolls on 2 different Oblit units. Also, if the first unit rolls high Strength, you can avoid using Vets and use Vets on the second. 

 

Gaze of Fate is a global reroll of anything, BTW. It doesn't need a target. If your Tzaangors fail a charge and you haven't used it yet, reroll. Perils on a key character, reroll, etc. You can just use it for this if you haven't needed it yet and can use it in addition to a CP in the same phase.

 

The point is that all of this stuff is stuff you can use anyway.

 

6+ Wound Ignore on 9 models  with 2+ saves and 3 wounds apiece is not useless, given the fact that the easiest way to kill them is with weight of fire. Ignoring roughly 17% of what does get through can help.

 

But if that's not that great, then go with a regular Herald as Warlord and use Daemonspark. All Tzeentch Daemons within its range reroll 1's to wound on shooting.

 

Wounding on 2's with up to 2 units, rerolling 1's to wound on all 3.

 

I'd personally rather have 36 shots that have a higher chance of doing what I want when they hit than 48 that have less chance, but that may be a playstyle difference, I'll grant.

 

Exalted Flamers cost too much? 70 points (new cost) for a flying, untargetable Multi-Melta or Baleflamer equivalent that also provides the Locus aura and acts as close in defense with 12 inch auto-hit Overwatch, plus fills an Elite slot in a Vanguard? Herald on a Disc is 85, 3 Ex Flamers is 210. Vanguard done.

 

That plus Oblits plus out of Legion Prince is about 1150, leaving 850 for Rubrics, Tzaangors, and 2 HQ's from TS in a typical tournament game here in the States (2k).

 

I would not recommend trying this at 1750. Maybe that's where our differences really lie. The Slaanesh version fits into 1750. This doesn't.

[antique_nova]

Ah yes, I keep forgetting that Tzaanors aren't daemons, but I am curious, why are the footsloggers not daemons, but their bretheren on disks are? It is because the disks are direct blressings of Tzeentch themselves via the discs, because all Tzaangors are blessed by tzeentch, but some may have more than others.

 

I get the gaze of fate thing, but I hardly ever use it, but I may consider.

 

When you failed a save and then are relying on a 6+ roll to save that lost wound, then yes it is next to useless and because you should NEVER rely on anything with a 16% chance of success when you have many other options. Such as spending those points that gave you that 6+ to save lost wounds on something else.

 

Although, I have to admit that I missed the daemon spark. So, I have to give you that!

 

I just did the math and I based it on averages against T5-7 units, because against T4 or lower it makes no difference and also, because you'll be facing almost no units with T8 or higher. Plus if you do, well lets just say that you'll either be only needing to take down one of them (say the one with a shieldbreaker missile) and the slaanesh oblits should be more than enough to take it down in one turn with focus fire. The oblits will use use their weapon's average, so S8 - AP2 - D2. All oblits are assumed to have the reroll 1s to hit.

 

On average, the Slaanesh based oblits x3 + prescience for one unit shooting twice + VOTLW do 41 hits and 31 wounds.

On average, the tzeentch based oblits x3 + the +1 strength buff, the daemon spark and prescience for one unit shooting + flickering flames + VOTLW for separate units do 30 hits and 27 wounds.

 

The different in buffs and support is:

 

Slaanesh - chaos lord - 1x spell - 2x stratagem 

Tzeentch - chaos lord/ahriman etc - tzeentch daemon hq with warlord trait - 2x spell - 2x stratagem

 

As you can see, not only does the tzeentch option cost more (you'd need other units to synapse, so I guess that makes them equal on points), but it's also faaaar more complicated and reliant on one more spell for massive difference in results which are obviously inferior to the former.

 

If you are against T8 units, then the tzeentch oblits would only get 22 wounds (not counting damage wounds) on average, while the Slaanesh oblits would only get 18 wounds on average. Since it's rare to face such units, it's not really a win for the tzeentch oblits, because both are still nowhere near enough to take down a T8 ++4 invul save Knight Castellan . Although the Tzeentch version should just force the knight to sneak into the final bracket, the knights have a stratagem that allows them to fight at full strength and with only 6 wounds left, the knight can easily have a priest repair itself to just be nudged back into the middle bracket. Plus, you're not really going to have anything else that can finish it off.

 

So in short, there's proof that unless your oblits are shooting T8 targets, they never beat Slaanesh ones and even when they do against T8, it's only by a small margin, which isn't even enough to make a difference in any case. So that advantage is mute.

 

if you have oblits, you don't need Exalted Flamers. That's just overkill. You also shouldn't rely on them for anti-infantry. Plus, they don't survive as well as Tzaangors when equal in terms of points wise. Sure they can hide behind other units, but they are close range daemons, if you want to take full advantage of their abilities, you're going to have to get real close and ahead of your main forces.

 

I'd rather take 13x Tzaangor Enlightened for 221 pts and you have an outrider detachment done. That's 26W ++5 Vs 12 ++4 saves. I know which I'd rather have. They do far better when backed up by Ahriman and a tzaangor shaman nearby and they sync much better with what's available than the Exalted Flamers. That's what I meant by them costing too much, because they aren't really needed.

 

I have to disagree with the points differences, because even in the 2000 pts version I have, I still wouldn't use Tzeentch oblits or even Exalted flamers.