Abaddon as Archetype - The Champion of Chaos

[Brother Casman]

Alright, rather than drag Ishagu's thread off topic, I figured I'd start a new thread.

 

 

If Abaddon dies for real, you might as well put the game away, as it's done...

Um, why? While I will freely admit to despising the character (especially recently, he's just too much of a 'just as planned' Sue character) I wouldn't describe him as a 'setting supporting' villain. He could be replaced as big bad bogeyman of Chaos without any major changes in the fundamentals of the setting. The Imperium would still be fighting/sucking/crumbling (delete as appropriate, depending on the source you're reading) and Chaos would still be am existential threat at the gate/breaking the gate/running rampant through the broken gate (again, delete depending on source). You can have the forces of Chaos sans Abby.

 

The only issue with killing Abby is 'who to replace him with?', which is more a 'failure' of GW to give him a stable of lieutenants/possible successors rather than the presence of Abby being fundamental to the 40k setting. Although with a bit of prep work, either Huron or returned Lorgar could work (or create someone new). Would it be a major shift in the 40k plot? Sure, but certainly not more extreme than ripping the Galaxy in half, bringing back the Primarchs, Primaris Marines or any number of changes we've seen since Gathering Storm dropped.

 

Leif, your question about "who to replace him with?" is why I see him as fundamental to the setting. There really isn't anyone else in the forces of Chaos that have his drive and ambition - without his will, the forces end up reverting to type and just doing the bidding of their gods. They will still be dangerous and powerful, but I wouldn't consider them an existential threat without the Champion of Chaos. Abaddon-as-Archetype gives Chaos a purpose. And for whatever reason, GW hasn't given us a back-up character/lieutenant/whatever. Abaddon stands alone, and I think he should.

 

I'll admit that I'm not really digging too deep into Abaddon-the-Black-Library-character in this, as he's very much a YMMV kind of guy. At the end of the day, we might just have to agree to disagree on Abaddon's importance to the setting.

 

Anyway, I hope that helps shed some light on my thoughts.

[Panzer]

It's just showing of GWs often lacking story telling that people think Abaddon could be easily replaced as the big bad lol

[Marshal Rohr]

Even outside of Black Library and ADB's inexplicably controversial take on the character, Abaddon is unquestioningly a cornerstone of the setting. What his goals are is irrelevant in the larger picture that mankind is living in its final moments, and Satan has come out of hell on a white horse. The studio might fumble with how to handle him in a setting that has been reinforced as a static setting by creating the Imperium Nihilus, that is certainly possible, but the setting cannot go on without him anymore than fantasy went on without Archaon.

[Kastor Krieg]

It's just showing of GWs often lacking story telling that people think Abaddon could be easily replaced as the big bad lol

No, every character is fairly "expendable". Horus Heresy, as a story and game system did not end when Horus died and First Captain Abaddon surpassed him, did it now? He was a footnote at first, then he was the Failbaddon laughing stock and now he's indispensible to the system? ADB did an excellent job with storytelling him then!

 

Just the same, there could be a character, for example Khayon, or another of Abaddon's lieutenants, who will come to surpass him. I can just as well see the grievous wound he received from Sigismund coming back to haunt him in a duel with another of Emperor's Champions, primarch or Marine, the old Templar King's words finally coming true and a new champion of Chaos emerging.

[Beams]

If abbadon dies, they could go and do an entire storyline about the war for his succession -- each god putting forth a champion, and having them compete to destroy the imperium. 4 simultaneous, rival crusades.

[Ishagu]

I'm not actually against Abaddon's death, provided it was suitably epic and he had a worthy successor. This successor would need time and BL support to build him up, unless they take an existing character after some grooming lol

 

His massive failing in my eyes is having the same objective as Horus - to topple and rule the Imperium. His plan, should it succeed, would be ruination for the human race. Also, his reason for hating the Emperor and the Imperium are ultimately quite petty. Abaddon hates his gene father yet follows in his footsteps to this day, with the exception of actually being a Thrall to the powers of Chaos, allegedly.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

(Long winded opinion incoming, I apologize but I have thought about this a lot)

 

I think the Horus argument only adds to his importance.  Horus' death marks a separation of two complete storylines, and as a result, games.  If Abbadon bites it he will have wrought such havoc that the imperium would be in the same shambles it was in the Heresy and we would have a complete reorganization of how the lore is presented.  All of the doubt of his importance and power comes from how GW has portrayed him in cannon.  No fantasy/AoS player questions the power or effectiveness of Archaon, and they are very nearly the same character.  My advice has always been to ignore the memes and look to what he represents and the whole of his plan.  

 

If we follow the vein that he does die and it doesn't represent the complete end to 40k lore as we know it up to this point, who honestly has the drive to continue forward with the only goal being the end of the Imperium?  Khârn wants combat and does not care how, Ahriman is blinded by rectifying his perceived mistake and getting into the BL to understand the meaning of chaos, Typhus wants to supersede his gene father as nurgle's chosen and wants daemonhood, Lucius similarly desires power and strength(correct me if I am wrong, I am only briefly aware of his newer lore).  The Primarch's are now daemons and are beholden to the will of the gods, plus they have all shown a rather large inclination to pursue their own plans and vendettas before destroying the imperium as a whole.  

 

Finally, even if we say whomever currently leads Black Legion warband #345 for example usurps power, will all four of the gods even chose to back him?  So many things have to fall into place to replace our current big bad of the universe, that I just don't think GW themselves would know how to do it if they can't even convince half of the fanbase of his threat in the first place.

[Marshal Rohr]

Chaos is at its most dangerous when its united. 4 rival crusades would peter out and be destroyed piecemeal.

[Panzer]

 

It's just showing of GWs often lacking story telling that people think Abaddon could be easily replaced as the big bad lol

 

No, every character is fairly "expendable". Horus Heresy, as a story and game system did not end when Horus died and First Captain Abaddon surpassed him, did it now? He was a footnote at first, then he was the Failbaddon laughing stock and now he's indispensible to the system? ADB did an excellent job with storytelling him then!

Just the same, there could be a character, for example Khayon, or another of Abaddon's lieutenants, who will come to surpass him. I can just as well see the grievous wound he received from Sigismund coming back to haunt him in a duel with another of Emperor's Champions, primarch or Marine, the old Templar King's words finally coming true and a new champion of Chaos emerging.

I'm not saying it's impossible to replace him. It just would change the setting a lot and require lots of storytelling. Aka not "easily".

Abaddon replacing Horus required the Horus Heresy to end and it involved the death of Sanguinius and whatever state big E now is in. The setting changed quite a bit since then, didn't it? ;)

[Ishagu]

Abaddon can endear himself more to us if we get some new lore. He's been absent since the Gathering Storm and his near brush with death after tangling with Celestine.

I'd love to see his forces come up against Guilliman's.

[helterskelter]

There's a villain hiding in plain sight.

Bellisarus Cawl.

You've had your own private playground for 10,000 years, you've been allowed to develop new wargear, new machines, new men.

You've got access to 20 sets of original geneseed. 20.

The boss walks in after a substantially long nap.

You've been told no to 11 of them.

You've made an enemy of a chunk of your order for heresies unbound because the boss said so.

You weren't who you were 10,000 years ago.

You don't want to give the playground up.

11 legions, all yours, because who's checking up on the most powerful man on mars?

 

Here's an Alternative to Abaddon being the main big bad.

[Brother Casman]

Let's keep the focus on Abaddon, please.

[Kastor Krieg]

I think the Horus argument only adds to his importance.  Horus' death marks a separation of two complete storylines, and as a result, games. 

30k era didn't end when Horus died. That was just the height of that story arc. Two thousand years of Scouring and so on followed and 40k history proper only began when Abaddon returned 781.M31 with the First Black Crusade and Sigismund, one of the last few heroes of Terra alive, met him face to face, foretelling him his fate, a mewling death like his failed father's.

[Gederas]

Yeah, I don't think they'd be able to replace Abbadon without a LOT of forethought.... Which, I don't think GW as a company has. The Black Library writers, yes. But Games Workshop the company that makes lore to sell models? No.

[Ratherdashing]

Stories have to have big bads. Settings don't. Necrons could "win" in the end. So could Tyranids. Chaos could fight itself to it's own destruction but destroy the universe in the process. Etc etc with any of the races except humanity (really, I guess even humanity could "win" and still have a suitably bleak ending). This is not to derail the thread from Abaddon but if the discussion is about whether the setting works without him I think it's relevant. I think seeing Chaos as the only viable nemesis for the Imperium does a disservice to the other "destruction" races and to what makes the setting as a whole interesting. 40k takes every universe ending threat from other sci fi and fantasy settings and throws them all in at once. Any one of them alone is cliche, including Chaos. Together they are something truly dire and different and in line with the over the top nature of the setting.

[Ishagu]

What would make Abaddon more interesting is some competition for his position. Another Lord of great power and influence who can't simply be removed, but who perhaps rallies more and more under his banner and weakens Abaddon.

[MARK0SIAN]

My take is that you could replace abbadon quite easily by just building up another chaos character, or a fallen Primarch or really anybody. My reason is that Abbadon doesn’t actually do much. As someone said earlier, we’ve had a long time pass since Cadia was destroyed, lots of important events have happened etc and during that whole time we haven’t seen Abbadon at all. Prior to the gathering storm we didn’t hear anything about him for years. The plot has done fine without him.

 

I believe Chaos does need a central figure for the universe but we seem to get on fine when he’s absent for long periods which suggests the central chaos figure could really be anyone because their main job is to be this boogeyman in the background as the director of all the chaos stuff.

[Panzer]

(Long winded opinion incoming, I apologize but I have thought about this a lot)

 

I think the Horus argument only adds to his importance.  Horus' death marks a separation of two complete storylines, and as a result, games.  If Abbadon bites it he will have wrought such havoc that the imperium would be in the same shambles it was in the Heresy and we would have a complete reorganization of how the lore is presented.  All of the doubt of his importance and power comes from how GW has portrayed him in cannon.  No fantasy/AoS player questions the power or effectiveness of Archaon, and they are very nearly the same character.  My advice has always been to ignore the memes and look to what he represents and the whole of his plan.  

 

If we follow the vein that he does die and it doesn't represent the complete end to 40k lore as we know it up to this point, who honestly has the drive to continue forward with the only goal being the end of the Imperium?  Khârn wants combat and does not care how, Ahriman is blinded by rectifying his perceived mistake and getting into the BL to understand the meaning of chaos, Typhus wants to supersede his gene father as nurgle's chosen and wants daemonhood, Lucius similarly desires power and strength(correct me if I am wrong, I am only briefly aware of his newer lore).  The Primarch's are now daemons and are beholden to the will of the gods, plus they have all shown a rather large inclination to pursue their own plans and vendettas before destroying the imperium as a whole.  

 

Finally, even if we say whomever currently leads Black Legion warband #345 for example usurps power, will all four of the gods even chose to back him?  So many things have to fall into place to replace our current big bad of the universe, that I just don't think GW themselves would know how to do it if they can't even convince half of the fanbase of his threat in the first place.

 

Well said.

Also who could possibly replace Abaddon as big bad? Honestly? Fabius Bile. No, he wouldn't be a champion of chaos or play around with all four gods and lead the biggest "Legion" against the Imperium. However he could succeed with his plans of perfecting his new race of humans capable of fighting toe-to-toe with Marines and other Xenos while still being actual humans that can reproduce and everything. He would essentially fight against Chaos Marines and the Imperium at once while actually doing something good for humanity. In the end he would just do what big E did, kinda. Of course that will never happen, but it's a possibility.

[Beams]

I would really like to see an increased focus on nonastartes leading chaos forces.

 

Astartes chapters contain, what, somewhere between 1 and 10 thousand members? There's more planets than Marines in a chapter, and some of these planets are ehives with 100 million people.

 

Let's see the real work horse of chaos. Let's see some humans/mutants/xenos rampaging through the setting.

[Panzer]

I would really like to see an increased focus on nonastartes leading chaos forces.

 

Astartes chapters contain, what, somewhere between 1 and 10 thousand members? There's more planets than Marines in a chapter, and some of these planets are ehives with 100 million people.

 

Let's see the real work horse of chaos. Let's see some humans/mutants/xenos rampaging through the setting.

 

No Chaos Marine would willingly follow a normal human. They don't even willingly follow other Chaos Marines and have to get beaten into it regularly lol

 

Renegade Guardsmen/Lost&Damned are a thing but they aren't the ones leading Astartes and Astartes are the chaos gods favourite toys. ;)

[Vesper]

What would make Abaddon more interesting is some competition for his position. Another Lord of great power and influence who can't simply be removed, but who perhaps rallies more and more under his banner and weakens Abaddon.

Already done. Now he happens to be the Warmaster because he has broken all true competition and eclipse even the Primarchs in power.

[Ishagu]

 

 

What would make Abaddon more interesting is some competition for his position. Another Lord of great power and influence who can't simply be removed, but who perhaps rallies more and more under his banner and weakens Abaddon.

Already done. Now he happens to be the Warmaster because he has broken all true competition and eclipse even the Primarchs in power.

Yes but that's in the novels and it's history. We need this rival to be an active player in the current lore, and to even have a model for the tabletop.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Anyone here think that Abaddon could ascend to daemonhood?  Something involing Drachnyen perhaps?  

[Kastor Krieg]

How the post-Roboute Guilliman waking up novels aren't "current lore", exactly?

[Panzer]

Anyone here think that Abaddon could ascend to daemonhood?  Something involing Drachnyen perhaps?

 

Difficult. We still don't know how ascending to daemonhood without help of one specific chaos god works and he's exceptionally skilled at playing the chaos gods so he never has the favour of just one, essentially limiting their influence over him while still benefiting from them.

Also he wouldn't want it. His goal isn't just to destroy the Imperium, he wants to conquer and lead humanity after he bested the Imperium. That's not something you can do as daemon since your time in realspace would be limited. Of course that's not what the chaos gods want but that's why he is the one using the gods and not the gods being the ones using him like they do with the big four.