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Sisters Beta Codex -Heavy Support

Adepta Sororitas Sisters of Battle SoB Chapter Approved 2018 Sisters Beta Codex Sisters Heavy Support

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#1
Aqui

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Post reserved for summaries and links relating to Heavy Support.

Once, a Novice Cantus came to me, troubled and uncertain. A slip of a girl, only a few strides down the eternal path leading her to the Golden Throne. She asked me a question. She asked me how we can ever truly understand what faith is. I told her that there is no coin to measure what we feel in our hearts. There are no scales upon which we might weigh the faith of one woman against another. There is only duty and blood. There are only deeds and words. There is only the service to the God-Emperor, and the price that demands from each Sister can only be known by Him. But know that whatever fears must be faced, whatever hardships endured, that price is forever worth its full cost.
- Sister Katherine Elysius,
Daughter of the Emperor (later Imperial Saint Katherine)


#2
Aqui

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Reserved.

Once, a Novice Cantus came to me, troubled and uncertain. A slip of a girl, only a few strides down the eternal path leading her to the Golden Throne. She asked me a question. She asked me how we can ever truly understand what faith is. I told her that there is no coin to measure what we feel in our hearts. There are no scales upon which we might weigh the faith of one woman against another. There is only duty and blood. There are only deeds and words. There is only the service to the God-Emperor, and the price that demands from each Sister can only be known by Him. But know that whatever fears must be faced, whatever hardships endured, that price is forever worth its full cost.
- Sister Katherine Elysius,
Daughter of the Emperor (later Imperial Saint Katherine)


#3
Commisarp

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Exorcist
35 points cheaper, and the missiles now do D6 damage. Much improved. One in every list. Two in some lists.

Retributor Squad
As last book. I like a Hvy bolter squad to stand backfield with your utility canoness and exorcist. Hitting on twos without needing to worry about the faith mechanic is nice.

Penitent Engines
A hefty points drop, and now they can fight twice in the fight phase. Yes please. I’ll take two.

 



#4
Beams

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10 pts cheaper, it was 135 from last CA

Edited by Beams, 15 December 2018 - 04:42 PM.

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#5
taikishi

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Retributors hit on 3s without use of Divine Guidance. As for "fighting twice", immediately fight again on a 4+ is better. Fight twice can be interrupted for 2CP, which means your opponent has a chance to kill your Penitent Engines before they can swing a a second time.


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#6
ERJAK

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Haven't tried penitent engines, mostly because no matter how good they are I'm not buying any of those bastard things until they're plastic. But I have tested exorcists and retributors.

 

Retributors: Heavy bolter is still far and away the best option for these girls. Even with MM going down, the short range and the fact that we can't double move anymore keep them out of contention. Heavy Flamers have a niche but not even being ABLE to benefit from AoFs mean that using the reroll 1s to wound stratagem(which would normally be very good on an autohit weapon) means essentially trashing a Faith Point.

 

For the most part, Retributors are Retributors. They haven't changed much since 6th edition. The problem is that they were one of the units that routinely benefited from the old AoFs and since the new system is pretty crap by comparison, it takes 3 units of Retributors being buffed by Divine Guidance to equal out the increased damage you got from 1 unit with an imagifier before. You also miss out on a lot of the utility of being able to shoot before you move, or being able to move without penalty.

 

Exorcists: Clearly better, especially in concert with Vessels. D6 damage alongside benefiting heavily from Divine Guidance when they couldn't use AoFs at all before makes them quite a bit more usable. HOWEVER, they still fall shy of being 'competitive'. Because of how completely impossible to predict they are when shooting, they're much more an indicator of gambling addiction than they are a valuable piece of the army. Even if you had 100% chance to hit, 100% chance to wound, and were shooting at a unit with no save of any kind, there are still something like 116 possible damage outcomes ranging from 1-36. You could fail to kill an Intercessor or majorly overkill a knight.

 

They also fall down quite a lot against anything with an invul save.

 

An interesting unit comparison for when I have more time for mathhammer is to see how an Exorcist compares to an Onager Dunecrawler. They're very similar pricepoints with very similar statlines and army roles. If the Onager comes out more than slightly ahead of the Exorcist without Divine Guidance, it might be the superior option, especially with how much value you can get out of 2 Engineseers with 3 units of Sniper Skittarii Vanguard.



#7
Purifying Tempest

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I'll hit the general forum later with a lot more about my game today, but never ever forget that the Exorcist is T8. At the things point cost with T8 and scalable invulnerable save... the thing is very sturdy.

#8
Drider

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Quick Summery after a play around on the table.

Rets.
A 6+ unit of Rets, 4* HF, C.Melta. Very good as a holy Trinity platform. A bit fiddly to use due to the small threat range, movement AoF helps. 

HB Rets, It's what it says on the tin. It's ok, just nothing special.

MM Rets, Not worth the effort over other options.

Exorcist:
Much better with D6 damage. Still a bit temperamental, but seems acceptable with a Canoness to baby sit. Good at killing T7 or less, a bit meh vs T8.

Penitent Engine:
A lot more durable with the 5+ FNP, especially if you can give it a 6++ from Big C as well. Auto fight twice is as good as you'd imagine. Still suffers from movement issues though.
 


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#9
Badgergrub

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As much as I like exorcists, I find them hard to include when list building just because of how unpredictable they’ve been. A little more consistency could go a long way. As one of the proposed changes I had in mind, I was playing around with the idea of D3 + 3 shots/damage or even 2D3. This would help them retain the feel of the old rules while not being a complete gamble. Maybe make it less survivable for balance. Would this be a reasonable thing to ask for? I’m sure many of us will be sharing our concerns for the new AoF, but I wouldn’t want to overlook the exorcists, as they are one of the more fun to use tanks in the game. Was wondering if I could get some thoughts and feedback here. More games have to be played before I send the email, but I’d hate for this one point to invalidate my entire write up.
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#10
Atrus

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All i can offer is the casual/narrative players perspective. I know competitive players crave reliability and consistency; but for me, the inconsistency of the exorcist is one of the most endearing qualities it has.
Im happy with where the exorcist is sitting at at the moment, the d6 damage actually did a lot to resolve the primary issue i had with it. And it got a price drop. I take 2 in every list, 3 whenever i can.

If getting some consistency for the reliability minded, id rather see a stratagem be available to exorcists to fill that hole.

#11
Slasher956

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I feel on the exorcist that the weapon is ok now that its D6 damage, but even as a casual player I would like something to help about the number of shots it gets other than the CP re-roll, maybe a rule that allows you to spend a FP to re-roll the number of shots? (going off the comments that people have plenty of FPs, and something like this as another way of spending them would help with the balancing of the convictions)

 

Also why oh why do vehicles not get the convictions?  As I said in the general thread compare Valorous Heats Conviction to Ulthwes as both are a flat 6+ FNP but Ulthwes not only affects vehicles it also saves you points on Transports (wave serpents) & Heavy Supports (Falcons, Fireprisms etc) as you dont take Spirt Stones  (my 2k list saves about 40 /50 points by going Ulthwé instead of Bel Tan)

 

The other thing with Exorcists is that they have just missed out part of the fluff - these things are mobile shrines for their orders.  If GW want ways to buff AoF why not give the exorcists a rule that grants +1 to AoF rolls by units in 6" & allow it to stack with the SImularcum ... maybe put it back to 135pts if they do.


Edited by Slasher956, 21 December 2018 - 08:09 AM.


#12
Montford

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I've thought for a long time that changing the number of shots on an Exorcist from 1D6 to 2D3 would be a reasonable improvement: you still max out at 6 shots, never get less than 2 shots, and you get a more reliable average number of shots. And keep the damage at 1D6 please!


Peace may cost less than war, or infinitely more, for war cannot cost more than one's own life.

 

-Klingon proverb


#13
dracpanzer

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Imagine 2d6 for not moving...
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#14
Badgergrub

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A reroll, roll two pick the highest or 2D3 for number of shots all sound really appealing. I'd imagine they'd also get some sort of strategem support, not AoF. Completely forgot about convictions. For whatever reason, I don't see it happening, at least before everyone else gets theirs. Just imagine if our tanks got something along the lines of that catachan doctrine. Wouldn't that be neat.



#15
Commander Dawnstar

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If you don't mind me asking: What sort of result do you guys consider satisfactory from your Exorcists? What sort of consistent result would make them worth taking?

 

I ask because the Exorcist is arguably cost-effective (if not strictly viable) at a mere two shots, with a Twin-Las Predator costing 130 points without sponsons, and punching well above its weight at 4+ shots. Is this dislike for their lack of consistency merely a case of something feeling bad (and I'm absolutely not trying to belittle that sort of feedback) or do they genuinely need to be putting out 4-6 shots per turn to be worth investing in over the alternatives?

 

Note: I'm asking this from a position of tabletop naivety. For all I know the Exorcist could sound solid and look good compared to some of its peers but still not be worth taking off the shelf.


Edited by Commander Dawnstar, 21 December 2018 - 07:15 PM.

Formerly Brightstar; now with 100% more open Xenos sympathies. Also heresy.

 

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#16
robofish7591

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I know a lot of people compare them to leman russes, which all get regiment bonuses and can fire twice with their turret if they only move half their move value plus can take two sponsons and a pintle mounted weapon in addition to their turret and hull weapon.  Predators also fall flat when you compare them to russes.

 

Personally I don't mind the exorcist as it is now (since d6 damage is what it should have been in the first place), but my meta is much more casual so I usually get more mileage out of units that usually get written off by others.


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#17
Ficinus

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When comparing an Exorcist to a Predator, one also has to consider that a predator can double it's firepower for 40 points. A Leman Russ can also significantly increase its firepower with sponsors. If we want to increase the Exorcist's firepower, we need to buy a second Exorcist.
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#18
robofish7591

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What do you all think about giving the exorcist the ability to ignore line of sight?  It already is more of an artillery piece than a battle tank, and that would give it something that predators and russes can't do.


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#19
Beams

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If you don't mind me asking: What sort of result do you guys consider satisfactory from your Exorcists? What sort of consistent result would make them worth taking?

I ask because the Exorcist is arguably cost-effective (if not strictly viable) at a mere two shots, with a Twin-Las Predator costing 130 points without sponsons, and punching well above its weight at 4+ shots. Is this dislike for their lack of consistency merely a case of something feeling bad (and I'm absolutely not trying to belittle that sort of feedback) or do they genuinely need to be putting out 4-6 shots per turn to be worth investing in over the alternatives?

Note: I'm asking this from a position of tabletop naivety. For all I know the Exorcist could sound solid and look good compared to some of its peers but still not be worth taking off the shelf.


It really depends on what role it's supposed to fill.

Its a bad anti tank Hunter, since it has a 27% chance to do 0 damage to a tank, due partially to the likelihood of getting 2 or less shots (33%). It also can't move and shoot without suffering a -1 to hit.

It's bad Anti-Infantry since it only has 1 to.6 shots.

If it's artillery you can compare to a badilisk in which case a basilisk is much better.

If it's a tank, compare to the much better leman Russ.

#20
Badgergrub

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I'm aware that too much consistency would take away its appeal. The exorcist is unique and flavorful, both in terms of rules and model. Because of this, I really hope we get more ways to interact with it outside of a CP reroll. Best case scenario is that these options exist to make them more engaging in both casual and competitive play. 
 
In the end, I think people who are gonna bring exorcists are gonna bring them because they're fun and can perform and those who don't just don't care for them at all. I don't usually compare them to other tanks. Can't pretend to know how cost effective an exorcist is, but I do know that there are things out there (ravagers, conquerors) that I don't have to convince myself to take. Exorcists probably can't compete with the rest of our army for any specific role, but they can still be good, and they should be better. For me, that's 2D3 shots, minimum. I guess a part of it does come down to how it feels. Knowing that I'll get a minimum of 2 shots is massive for my impression of where they sit on my list. See it as more of a minor change for a major feelsgood. If we aren't getting convictions or strategem support, this could still pass as a self-contained firing unit. If we are, I don't see it being anywhere near game-breaking. I'd take a lot more if I could. Ignoring line of sight would add to its character. Makes so much sense for what it does.


#21
Montford

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What do you all think about giving the exorcist the ability to ignore line of sight?  It already is more of an artillery piece than a battle tank, and that would give it something that predators and russes can't do.

 

I don't consider it artillery, its more like a WWII tank destroyer. That's the way it essentially plays :)


Peace may cost less than war, or infinitely more, for war cannot cost more than one's own life.

 

-Klingon proverb


#22
Montford

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Penitent Engines are a lot more survivable. That 5+ FNP was handy in my game today vs. Necrons. I had three and two actually made it into melee.


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Peace may cost less than war, or infinitely more, for war cannot cost more than one's own life.

 

-Klingon proverb


#23
Mekhitar

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Both my engines also made it to melee. One stripped a nurgle dp (2+/5++/4+++) down to 1 wd. Then he interrupted and killed it. Man did I miss the ability to swing twice in a row! The second engine came in when he was out of cp and finished off about 8 poxwalkers between flames and attacks and then killed a wounded dp they had been screening. I liked them before, I still like them.

My game heroes were 8 rets with 4MM and a simulacrum. I miss being able to shoot them at the start of turn, but hitting on 2s with the act (3s if they moved) and following it up with rerolling 1s to wd is great fun.

Sadly we played a wonky deployment that meant my exorcist got killed on t1 so I didn’t get to check it’s performance. :( next time!

Edited by Mekhitar, 22 December 2018 - 03:10 PM.

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#24
Montford

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Both my engines also made it to melee. One stripped a nurgle dp (2+/5++/4+++) down to 1 wd. Then he interrupted and killed it. Man did I miss the ability to swing twice in a row! The second engine came in when he was out of cp and finished off about 8 poxwalkers between flames and attacks and then killed a wounded dp they had been screening. I liked them before, I still like them.

My game heroes were 8 rets with 4MM and a simulacrum. I miss being able to shoot them at the start of turn, but hitting on 2s with the act (3s if they moved) and following it up with rerolling 1s to wd is great fun.

Sadly we played a wonky deployment that meant my exorcist got killed on t1 so I didn’t get to check it’s performance. sad.png next time!

 

Had a simulacrum with MM retributors in my game against Knights today. She was handy for me too! It also helped that where the diagolus stopped to support the Canoness and a BSS was within 6" 


Peace may cost less than war, or infinitely more, for war cannot cost more than one's own life.

 

-Klingon proverb


#25
bkde

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Penitent Engines are still too slow.  I love the models, but they're still just too slow.

 

Exorcists, the d6 damage is nice, but they get killed on the d6 shots.  Still too unreliable.  Positioning 3 of them to get LOS to their chosen target can also be a pain as it is important to have all 3 targeting the same target to help offset the randomness of number of shots.







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