**Rumoured** Ravenwing detachment in Vigilus campaign book

[MaxB]

No, you may not abuse the new strat to lock in combat another unit.

you have to make the move after you fought, wich is define by the fight sequence P182 BRB:

1. choose unit to fight

2. pile in up to 3''

3. choose target

4. choose melee weapon

5. resolve close combat attacks

6. consolidate

use Swift Strike here.

 

The stratagem allows a move or fall back, neither of which allow to end within 1'' of the enemy.

100% correct.

 

But I'm asking whether after that sequence you can use the Stratagem 'Honour the Chapter' for 3CP:

 

"Use this Stratagem at the end of any fight phase. Select a Dark Angels Infantry or Dark Angels Biker unit from your army - that unit may immediately fight for a second time."

 

Which throws you back to the sequence and as long as your RW Biker unit had charged in that phase, they are eligible to be selected to fight. Now use your Pile in and Consolidate moves to tag and hopefully surround an enemy unit/model. 

 

Very similar to a Tyranids trick with Genestealers.

[sneakybamsen]

Max, if you charged in the charge phase, you can only fight something you declared as a charge target. But consider the cost - 5 CP to pull it off. To kill something with say 9 BK's, to then move on, and reactivate, and pile into another unit to fight them. It's a LOT of CP for making black knights pull that off. They don't really hit that hard, truth be told. I'm saying black knights because it's bikes or infantry, and deathwing knights can't be part of the specialist detachment, so they cannot be allowed to move from one dead target to the next, unless it can just be done with a pile-in. The rest of our options for melee are less than mediocre.

 

I cannot say if it is possible technically, I think it might be, even though I think it's one of those cases where rules should have been thought out to prevent this kind of trickery.

[MaxB]

No need to fight the second target. All you are aiming to do is maybe touch a shooting unit to prevent it shooting next turn, or surround a weak backline unit to stop them falling back to keep your bikes safe.

 

Yes definitely it costs a lot of CP so prob not worth it. And I would only consider these sort of combos in a competitive environment. Keep casual games fun and straightforward imo.

 

I'm looking into Tyranids for my next army and this is a common move to pull with Genestealers. Just got me thinking is all. But I'll leave that train of thought here. Many things to get excited about for our Dark Angels!

[SnakeChisler]

There are ways of pilling in with bikes which are legal but your maxing the full range of the charge, subsequent pile in and the base size of the bike + the 1" rule.

 

The bases themselves are just under 3" so snagging in the pile in phase is easy enough if planned correctly.

 

You can't really reactivate unless you declare a charge on the unit and you can't declare a charge on something outside of 12"

[Madmonkeyman]

So I love this thinking and it has its uses for sure . You can only attack what you charged. However you an pile into what ever you like you just can’t kill it. You also don’t need to be within an inch of something the second time you activate as you charged that turn. Not 100% on if you can reactivate after charging if you advanced as I don’t have a rule book in front of me ( from memory advancing stops you from declaring charges not from attacking in combat- so should be ok )

 

Love this . Great for tying up gun lines. Really useful!

[Cadian16th]

There are ways of pilling in with bikes which are legal but your maxing the full range of the charge, subsequent pile in and the base size of the bike + the 1" rule.

 

The bases themselves are just under 3" so snagging in the pile in phase is easy enough if planned correctly.

 

You can't really reactivate unless you declare a charge on the unit and you can't declare a charge on something outside of 12"

 

Not true. You can only swing at a unit you declared as a charge target, but you can still activate without swinging. The second fight activation is about locking something in combat so your black knights won't be exposed and shot to death.

[CyberC1]

It could be worth it if it means a late game time up of an enemy unit and locking them in combat so your BK don't get shot to hell.  I think situational, but a cool tactic.

[Grand Master Raziel]

The Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation has me thinking we might get some mileage out of Combat Squads. With the most efficient way to mono-list being a double battalion, that limits how many Fast Attack units we can squeeze into that formation. However, Ravenwing Bike Squads can combat squad, potentially giving us two units in one slot. 

Unfortunately, Black Knights don't have the Combat Squads rule, which is weird, because everything else that can be taken as a 10-man squad does. I wonder if we could get GW to FAQ it in.

[AdmirableGoal]

Good on you for getting in and testing out the detachment so quickly, and thanks for sharing your experience.

 

The difficulty is going to be scoring that first wound on a target as efficiently as possible. I'm glad Sableclaw worked out for you, but I feel like there's got to be a better option. MM attack bikes, melta bikes, and land speeders are the current ideas I'm tossing up, with melta bikes being the frontrunners, I think. They don't really need the +1 to hit if you're in Sammael's buff range, can fairly reliably pop a wound on a tank, and are a small enough unit that you can take a few MSUs, and cycle through them until you get the wound (in which case, the others will get the +1 to hit as well).

 

 

Ahhhh, I think I see – we are in different metas, haha.  I fight a ton of knights and other heavily armored units with invuln saves, plus more than a few inside of -1 to hit bubbles, so Sammael is my go-to because he’s got the weight of fire (and effective BS of 3+, rerolling 1s) to put a wound on one of them first so that my heavier guns can punch at it more easily.  Basically, I'm trying to use smaller guns to paint the target so that my bigger guns can (hopefully) have a better chance of putting some real damage on it.  

 

If you’re seeing a lot Leman Russes, though, or other sturdy tanks without invuln saves, or just a bunch of big Tyranids, I think melta bikes could work, especially with the points drops.  One other thing that you might think about here (and one that I’m considering) is just a 3-man squad of black knights.  It only costs 2 more points than a 3-man squad with 2 meltas and a combi-melta.  Plus, you could always give the BK sergeant Melta bombs if you think you can get in range to use them.    Of course, you’d probably need to get some more black knights, as I think running a big squad of them is a pretty strong feature of the detachment.    

 

 

 

Your land speeder idea is interesting, and in a vacuum could work. I think the difficulty is that there are other units that make better use of speed of the raven (black knights especially). 

 

Oh yeah, I’m not really convinced that this is a good idea, but I’m still going to try it in a game or two.  I’ll report back here when I do.  Probably with pictures.  :)

 

 But power to you - as a true Unforgiven I would never want to discourage you from purging heretics with the Emperor's holy flame

 

This man understands what it is to be a son of the Lion of the, people.    

[CyberC1]

Hey folks, I played a game recently with the Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation, wanted to share some experience out of it.

 

The Ravenwing Attack Squadron consisted of:

- Sammael in a Sableclaw

- Talonmaster

- Unit of 6 Black Knights

- Dark Talon

- Unit of 3 Ravenwing Bikers with 2 melta guns / 1 combi-melta

- Unit of 3 Ravenwing Bikers with 2 plasma guns / 1 combi-plasma

 

Oh man.. this was fun. The strategems came into play twice, once with Swift Strike, on the melta unit of Ravenwing nonetheless. I was playing vs Deathguard, but in any case, I moved the melta unit up real close to a PBC, melta’d it, charged a unit of plaguemarines, and then ran away from combat really fast. There was a Callidus assassin in the mix as well that killed off enough DG that I could run away the full amount - effective use of getting away.

 

The second strategem, signal the attack, I was able to pull off on Mortarion in late game, with most of the Attack Squadron still alive - basically everything overcharged and blasted at Morty and that was pretty awesome...

 

Monster Slayer of Caliban was on the Talonmaster, which was useful at knocking around bloat drones in combat.

 

Overall, I liked it. I was starting at 7CP (1 for attack squadron, 1 for relics of the rock), but overall, I didn’t feel a dearth of command points (buoyed by Sammael & the Talonmaster’s re-rolls for sure).

 

Mission: Scars of Battle, 2K points.

[Naaman10th]

Hey folks, I played a game recently with the Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation, wanted to share some experience out of it.

 

The Ravenwing Attack Squadron consisted of:

- Sammael in a Sableclaw

- Talonmaster

- Unit of 6 Black Knights

- Dark Talon

- Unit of 3 Ravenwing Bikers with 2 melta guns / 1 combi-melta

- Unit of 3 Ravenwing Bikers with 2 plasma guns / 1 combi-plasma

 

Oh man.. this was fun. The strategems came into play twice, once with Swift Strike, on the melta unit of Ravenwing nonetheless. I was playing vs Deathguard, but in any case, I moved the melta unit up real close to a PBC, melta’d it, charged a unit of plaguemarines, and then ran away from combat really fast. There was a Callidus assassin in the mix as well that killed off enough DG that I could run away the full amount - effective use of getting away.

 

The second strategem, signal the attack, I was able to pull off on Mortarion in late game, with most of the Attack Squadron still alive - basically everything overcharged and blasted at Morty and that was pretty awesome...

 

Monster Slayer of Caliban was on the Talonmaster, which was useful at knocking around bloat drones in combat.

 

Overall, I liked it. I was starting at 7CP (1 for attack squadron, 1 for relics of the rock), but overall, I didn’t feel a dearth of command points (buoyed by Sammael & the Talonmaster’s re-rolls for sure).

 

Mission: Scars of Battle, 2K points.

 

 

That reads promising. My test game was scheduled for today but got canceled :(

Hopefully I'm able to get a game in on friday. Against Astra Militarum... I just noticed they have 5 different special detachments to choose from :D

[RayJ]

I ran a test game last night vs an emperor's children list. Highlights are 2 talonmasters, sableclaw, 2 dark talons, 8 black knights, ancient in a Battalion. Loyal 32 for more board presence and CP.

 

Dark Talons obviously just keep doing their thing. I had one get a wound through on a heretic Knight, so used Signal the Attack + Weapons from the Dark Age to instantly erase it due to not worrying about overcharge.

 

Had a hilarious moment at the top of turn 2 where an enemy sorc used smite to kill 2 Black Knights resulting in a ton of triggered shots back and forth between noise Marines and black knights.

 

My next test, I'm moving the black knights up to a full 10 man squad.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Glad to hear your test game went well, RayJ - especially pleased with the StA, WotDA and overcharge combo.

 

As far as I know (could have missed an FAQ), the ancient's banner ability only works on infantry models, so wouldn't have applied to the Black Knights.

[RayJ]

Good thing you bring that up. I've been running foot ancients so long I forgot the Ravenwing and Deathwing ones work completely differently. It's a +1 attack bubble...

[CyberC1]

How do you like using the Ravenwing Ancient?  I've been toying around with adding one into the army, but not sure how the effectiveness, esp at that point value, I figure I can just add more black knights to the squad.

[BlackTriton]

I like the RW ancien with regular bikers.

You get 4 bolters and 3 attacks out of every bike, same defence than the Black knight. more bodies = more value from the ancien.

 

People are focussing on Darktalon and Black knight and sleeping on the regular bikers. They are a great unit for chaff clearing, pretty durable and pretty cheap.

[RayJ]

I agree that the Ancient is great for multiple units and that normal bikers are super efficient now. I do think Black Knights will get better leverage out of Swift Strike, as they will actually cause more damage before running away. And for that reason I like the interaction with the Ancient there.

 

I'm also trying to maximize the number of units in a single detachment that benefit from the new Attack Squadron stuff.

[AdmirableGoal]

People are focussing on Darktalon and Black knight and sleeping on the regular bikers. They are a great unit for chaff clearing, pretty durable and pretty cheap.

 

I have been wondering about this, too.  I could see this working if I structured a few of my lists differently to work them in.  Right now I'm having so much fun trying out all of the new options that I've been locked out of that I haven't even gotten to regular RW bikers yet!  I actually want to try out both small and large squads.  A squad with eight bikes is only 184 points.  That's a lot of very mobile T5 wounds for the price.  

 

To your point about Dark Talons and Black Knights -  Both units are awesome, I get it.  I mean, put aside the Ravenwing, they're two of the heavier hitters we have in the whole codex.  I understand why people would want to build around them.  But, similarly to your point about regular RW bikers, I was wondering if people are seeing success with some other RW units or unusual combinations.  

 

I've played five games with the new detachment and CA changes, and I've been running  at least 3-4 landspeeders in each list, always with Heavy Bolters and Typhoon Missile Launchers.  I've actually had a lot of success with them so far.  The flexibility of having both respectable anti-tank and anti-horde in the same platform is pretty useful.  More than that, though, I've been running them at least 3 to a squad for the anti-grav upwash.  Even though I did it deliberately, I'm still surprised every game at how tremendously useful their mobility is given their ability to fly.  They can basically get in range of anything on the map, take objectives, get out of combat while still serving as a major shooting threat, and act as an emergency screen basically wherever I need them to.  I'm also finding that the extra 3-4 heavy bolters put in a lot of extra work, especially since they're the also in some ways the 10 point tax that I'm paying to use flying missile launchers.

 

I'm also starting to wonder if the Detachment could act as a huge boost to my beloved but underutilized Land Speeder Vengeance.  I've only taken him in one game so far, but being able to negate the heavy weapons penalty on the plasma storm battery was something that I'd hoped to get out of the specialist detachment before it was released.  It really did start to open up some options for him that he didn't have before and I started to change how I thought about using it even in the first two turns of the first game that I brought it out.  Previously, I found it really difficult to both overcharge it without shorting out the weapon on the first or second turn.  It was also really tricky to move it in range of whatever I wanted to shoot at on the first turn and keep it protected without using speed of the raven on it, because without the jink save, it was just a T6 sitting duck 36" away from whatever big, nasty gun that I'd probably tried to shoot with it.  Now, I can hypothetically:

 

- use speed of the raven on it without worrying that I might be "wasting" it by not giving it to my black knights

- actually move it in range to shoot without penalty thanks to Signal the Strike

- actually move it in range with some added survivability because it next to several other real threats my opponent has to deal with

- actually keep it immobile for a turn to try to hit on 2s and avoid overcharing penalties (again thanks to the other threats from the rest of the RW, etc)

 

The tricky part is the still the D6 shots, of course.  I got pretty lucky with it in game 1, landing 3, 4, and 3 shots for the three turns it was alive.  I'm actually wondering if adding a second or even a third might work in some lists, as one will get enough shots to justify Weapons of the Dark Age for glorious damage 4 shots.  Anyone tried this yet or have thoughts here?  I love the Vengeance/Darkshroud chassis, please enable me to buy this kit again.  

[AdmirableGoal]

 

I'm also trying to maximize the number of units in a single detachment that benefit from the new Attack Squadron stuff.

 

I think this is the trickiest part of using the detachment, though it's challenging in a way that I'm enjoying so far.  I don't yet have a sense of whether or not this is true for other factions, but I am almost convinced that this is how GW intended to balance them, or at least balance ours.  Almost.  It was still probably an accident, but whatever, that's besides the point.  

 

The detachment eats so much CP that there's a cost to just putting the whole thing in an outrider.  And on the other hand, putting the whole thing in a battalion limits you to just three fast attack choices (one of which is going to be occupied by your dark shroud unless you add a second detachment, which I, of course, add).  You do, of course, have some other options in the Flyer and Elite slots, but they're all pretty expensive.  I'm currently running two battalions, keeping all of the Ravenwing in one except for the darkshroud.  It's working well enough right now, but that may change, nor do I think it's the only solution available.  What have you tried so far that you think has worked for you?  Or could work in theory?

[BlackTriton]

Im really snob wen it comes to plasma.

 

hellblaster and devastator with their plasma shot being long range can hide or stand in cover, they easily benefit from the same 4++ with azrael.

 

Inceptor are the most efficient plasma squad we can have. While considerably slower than bikes, they can reserve until you need them.

 

So with those unit in my list, im looking at ravenwing to help with the numbers, cleaing orc boys, infantry, cultist and such. Thats where regular RW bikers come in for me. With the Talon Master, they are superb at killing of larger squads while fending for the hammer-Master and clearing space for the inceptors.

 

We often discussed the +1 to hit to make sure to land those plasma shot, but against 30+ orc boys, every dice must count and its easy to activate.

[RayJ]

 

The detachment eats so much CP that there's a cost to just putting the whole thing in an outrider.  And on the other hand, putting the whole thing in a battalion limits you to just three fast attack choices (one of which is going to be occupied by your dark shroud unless you add a second detachment, which I, of course, add).  You do, of course, have some other options in the Flyer and Elite slots, but they're all pretty expensive.  I'm currently running two battalions, keeping all of the Ravenwing in one except for the darkshroud.  It's working well enough right now, but that may change, nor do I think it's the only solution available.  What have you tried so far that you think has worked for you?  Or could work in theory?

 

 

I've got a slightly updated list in the appropriate sub-forum at the moment, but the gist is this:

 

Sammael

2 Talonmasters

3 Scout Squads

2 Dark Talons

1 RW Ancient

10-man Black Knights squad

1 Dark Shroud

 

Loyal 32 for extra back field bodies and CP

 

Dark Talons always worked, but the points reduction on the BKs made me bring them out again. And Swift Strike is amazing for maximizing on their Corvus Hammers without fear of retaliation, making them get every ounce out of their unit entry. I feel the new cost balances them very well vs Hellblasters. This is the biggest reason you're gonna see them in lists right now.

 

The list starts with 13 CP and I take Brilliant Strategist on a Talonmaster to help get a couple more over the game. You spend 1 on RW Attack Squadron, of course. If appropriate threats are there, take 1 CP for adding Monster Slayer to the 2nd Talonmaster (Warlord gets Heavenfall still).

 

Dark Talons don't need the formation to be good, since they've got strafing run, but they're good for getting a wound into a big target for your other units to benefit from Signal the Attack.

[CyberC1]

So I have been running the attack squadron in an outrider detachment.  I've found that the lack of command points has been 'ok' for me so far.  With the re-rolls from Sammael and the Talonmaster, I've found that I've not been wanting for re-rolls.  Around turn 5, I start looking around and wishing i had more CP, but by then so much has happened that it's actually ok.

 

The attack squadron features:

Sammael, Talonmaster, Bikes with Plasma/Combi-plasma, Bikes with Meltas/Combi-melta, Black Knights, Dark Shroud, Dark Talon.

 

The order of operations that I've found successful for signal the attack is to go with Sammael first to cause the wound, and then I overcharge everything, and unload into the target with the rest of the army.  So far so good!  Talonmaster has the monster slayer of caliban, and only charges sparingly - I have him pretty close to Sammael most/all of the time.

[Maxamato]

Quick question:

Do I avoid overheat plasma with Signal the Attack?

 

Means, I roll a 1 (doesn't hit) but the shooter isn't slain because of the +1 to hit?

 

Thx in advance.

[Hellunder]

I’ve seen similar arguments somewhere else. Seems like a valid point that -1 modifiers turn both 1s and 2s into “1s” and hence should +1 modifiers turn 1s into 2s, even though dice rolls of 1 always fail.

[Berzul]

Overheating happens on roll of 1, not on natural rolls of 1.

 

So, rolling a 1, but adding a ´+1, would save you.

Same as with rolling a 2, but then getting a -1, which would doom you