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Spacy Wolves, very competative in need of some advice


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#1
faithonwings

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O.k, here's some context. I know SW is not the most competative codex right now, but it has some neat tricks. I'm tring to bring some of these tricks into a single list to make it into a list that can have a decent chance against most lists. (IK, Space Elves, Chaos spam)

 

So here's how far I got, it's 2 battalions so far:

 

Battalion 1

 

- Logan

- Njal in Termy armor

 

- Grey hunter (chainswords en bolters) 3x

 

- Leviathan Dread, 2x Stormcannon

- Rapier Carrier with quad launcher

 

 

Battalion 2

 

- Wolf Guard battle leader (stock, has the Wulven Stone)

- Chaplain Venrable Dread with Lascannons (Is the Warlord, has Saga of the Beastslayer)

 

- Grey hunter (chainswords en bolters) 3x

 

- Leviathan Dread, 2x Stormcannon

- Rapier Carrier with quad launcher

 

Comes in around 1773 point so have more than 200 spare.

 

 

Basis stratatgy, characters form a buff bubble for the army. Chaplain Dread will try to pop a small vehicle to get his Deed of Legend off making the Leviathans just plain redicules. Njal will pop of debuff spells to protect the dreads. Will use stratagems for -1 to hit bubble and will have the shooting if stuff enters the bord stratagem ready to use. Grey hunters will act as a screen for the characters. Rapiers will hang back on an objective.

 

My question to you SW vets is this. What does this list need most? Some more screening units? (loyal 32 guardsmen maybe??) A distraction carnifex in the form of a Redemptor dreadnought? Some added mobility with a few Rhino's/ razorbacks? What are this lists weacknesses??


Edited by faithonwings, 25 November 2018 - 09:39 AM.


#2
Rammael

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My problem with your list is your trying to castle up. We are just not a gunline army. So many more do it better than us?
Can I ask why a double battalion? Your army does not seem that command point hungry from the units you have taken.

1. I don't think you need old man logan or even terminator armour for Njal. Drop the terminator armour and logan and instead take a battle leader with a jump pack and thunder hammer. This way you can get re-roll 1s to wound as well. Give the armour of Russ and a storm bolter. He can then buff things and then move out to engage when the time comes.

2. Drop your chaplain and take Bjorn!!! He is 35 pts more expensive but is a beast and will give 're roll 1s and an extra command point.

3. Grey hunters are an expensive screen. I would drop 3 packs and take 3 blood claw packs if you insist on double battalion. However I would go with a single battalion and invest in fenrisian wolves and cyber wolves.

4. You need something to threaten your enemy's back field. If you want combat great then go for wulfen if shooty is more your style get hellblasters or plasma wolf guard if primaris is not your thing. Then drop a jump pack rune priest in to help protect them.

5. I am unsure to the use of your battle leader with the wulfen stone. You don't really have any combat units that need buffing.

Sorry for the long post but just a few areas where I think you could improve. I will post a potential list shortly for you.

#3
faithonwings

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Cool, thanks for the advice.

Are you sure you understand how the list works? Yes other army's are better at casteling up, but they can't pour out 40 S7 shot's wounding on 4's vs T8 because of the dead of legend, rerolling to hit and 1's to wound, getting minus 1 to hit because of the statagem (so it IS very cp hungry) and the benefit of cover due to psychic powers. Also, you have a brutal stratagem that ingnores penalty's to hit and an even meaner stratagem that allows one model to shoot when somethi g enters the bord ( like say, a 309 point dreadnought??) It is not very tipical for SW but there is so much synergy going on, it's insane.

I would love to take Bjorn, but he can not take saga of the beast slayer, the chaplain can.

Logan is not just there for the reroll to hit in my shooting fase. He is also there for the reroll's when getting charged. Plus, he is a darn nasty beatstick en the stratagem for fighting twice works on him, so does the wolven stone from te battle leader.

I see a lot of lists with wulven and TWC but they seem so ineffective. Getting shot up before being able to do anything in return for 2 turn in a row. Looks like a oneway tiket to deafeat to me. Why does everyone play them? Close combat isn't very good in 8th.

Is there anythink about the list why you think it won't work?

Edited by faithonwings, 26 November 2018 - 05:52 PM.


#4
Shas Oh Dear

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I have to agree with a lot of what Rammael said tbh, logan is more reroll than you need and he's too expensive a character when he's unlikely to actually see much action especially in an ultra competitive environment. Njal only needs termy armour if you intend on deepstriking him, otherwise again it's a waste of points over his power armour.

I understand the choice in chaplain dreadnought and battle leader, their auras really up the damage potential. But I think you're overestimating the chaplains ability to kill something by himself. 2 lascanons will be lucky to kill a rhino in a turn maybe even within 2 turns.

But those points are relatively minor, your major issue is an overall lack of mobility. Any decent opponent will either kite you, swarm you or outrange you. Realistically the only offensive threat you possess turn 1 are the 2 lascanons on your chaplain and if your opponent intentionally deploys far back your leviathans may not have the opportunity to shoot anything until turn 3 by which time at least one of them will be severely damaged.

So for recommendations I'd downgrade logan to a smash Lord and take off njals termy armour. With your remaining points I'd suggest doing something to up your mobility and long range firepower, something like razorbacks or a couple rhinos and a long fang squad. Finally it may be worth taking an iron priest to mitigate the damage the leviathans take getting into range.

Just my $0.02

#5
faithonwings

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Thanks for the comment, I think you are right about the lack of mobility. Will give that a good long thought.
Maybe Rhino's. Maybe Razorbacks.

Logan... it's a tough one. I agree at first he is not much of an improvement over a captain, but as the leviathans start to drop on BS over time the reroll to hit starts to look a lot better than just rerolling one's. If you would take a lord. How would you kit him out? Bike? TW? Jump pack?

Plan for the chaplain is to weaken a vehicle with one of the leviathans, than pour in his lascannon shots. Don't forget his stormbolter wounds vehicles of T7 on a 4+ to. I can see you'r point though, it's still a big if.

Njal, I think is a 13 point upgrade with his termie armor? For this you get +1 wound, +1 to his save, a decent invul, but most important, a 8 mm larger base witch helps for the aura buff the -1 to hit strat gives. You think is not a decent improvment?

Edited by faithonwings, 27 November 2018 - 07:01 AM.


#6
Shas Oh Dear

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The problem I have with logan is that he is significantly more costly, I think around 41pts more than a jp, ss, th WolfLord (which is how I'd equip 1) and again his lack of mobility means he is pretty much stuck as a reroll provider that can't really respond to threats. I have always found that the Leviathan pretty much remains unbracketed or dies, they rarely are left on a lower bracket against anyone who knows what they're capable of.

It's a solid plan and one I have used in the past. But without another long range threat to weaken the vehicle first you're realistically looking at turn 3 before the saga becomes an aura (2 turns of shooting to kill a vehicle and the deed doesn't activate until the end of the phase). Leviathans don't qualify for this because with a 24" range, best case scenario they don't have a valid target until then 2 either. You will be taking a lot of return fire over the course of 3 turns.

It is only 13 points but he has 2+ 5++ anyway, he does get an extra wound but his best defence is being a character and like all characters if he ever ends up in a position where he can be targeted he'll pretty much die immediately. 8mm doesn't get you much, really it's only 4mm extra as you're working in a radius but he does lose an inch of movement speed in exchange. So it really comes down to whether you have something else those 13 pts can be used for?

#7
Blackraw

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My question to you SW vets is this. What does this list need most? Some more screening units? (loyal 32 guardsmen maybe??) A distraction carnifex in the form of a Redemptor dreadnought? Some added mobility with a few Rhino's/ razorbacks? What are this lists weacknesses??

 

 

Are you sure you understand how the list works? Yes other army's are better at casteling up, but they can't pour out 40 S7 shot's wounding on 4's vs T8 because of the dead of legend, rerolling to hit and 1's to wound, getting minus 1 to hit because of the statagem (so it IS very cp hungry) and the benefit of cover due to psychic powers. Also, you have a brutal stratagem that ingnores penalty's to hit and an even meaner stratagem that allows one model to shoot when somethi g enters the bord ( like say, a 309 point dreadnought??) It is not very tipical for SW but there is so much synergy going on, it's insane

Is there anythink about the list why you think it won't work?


To be honest, I can't see that much of a synergy that you are referring too. There is theoretical situation where you can give out Beastslayer to Leviathan, than enemy monster decide to DS in the LoS of Leviathan and RP and let you shot it. But again, that is very situational. I would focus in getting real synergy, which wolves get in our melee potential. 

Our chapter tactics boosts our charge, so that is the starting point to improve the synergy. BL will benefit from tactics more, since they have extra attack. Wullfen will buff the charges to increase success %. Wulfen stone and Wolfkin saga can increase number of attacks even more. WL with TH get no penalty for TH because of tactics etc.

Another issue that you have here is mobility. GH becomes simply a screen in your list, they have nor firepower, nor melee punch, no mobility to grab objectives. At the same time we have few good mobility options. Cunning of the wolf can help you DS wulfen - one of our strongest units. You can also use it for range guys, if you want to DS Hellblasters in rapid-fire range or Long Fangs with multi-melta in 1/2 melta range for double damage roll etc. We have Stormwolf to deliver Wulfen/Blood Claws right to the center of battlefield. 

So at least I would think of:
Changing 6x GH for couple of Blood Claws squads in Rhino.
Getting Long Fangs for some long-range AA.
Getting Wulfen.

I know that it will make the list more of a "standard SW list", but that is the truth, we have got few unique units which performs well and stacks with our codex tricks. For the rest, there are armies that do it much better.



#8
Taylus

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O.k, here's some context. I know SW is not the most competative codex right now, but it has some neat tricks. I'm tring to bring some of these tricks into a single list to make it into a list that can have a decent chance against most lists. (IK, Space Elves, Chaos spam)

 

So here's how far I got, it's 2 battalions so far:

 

Battalion 1

 

- Logan

- Njal in Termy armor

 

- Grey hunter (chainswords en bolters) 3x

 

- Leviathan Dread, 2x Stormcannon

- Rapier Carrier with quad launcher

 

 

Battalion 2

 

- Wolf Guard battle leader (stock, has the Wulven Stone)

- Chaplain Venrable Dread with Lascannons (Is the Warlord, has Saga of the Beastslayer)

 

- Grey hunter (chainswords en bolters) 3x

 

- Leviathan Dread, 2x Stormcannon

- Rapier Carrier with quad launcher

 

Comes in around 1773 point so have more than 200 spare.

 

 

Basis stratatgy, characters form a buff bubble for the army. Chaplain Dread will try to pop a small vehicle to get his Deed of Legend off making the Leviathans just plain redicules. Njal will pop of debuff spells to protect the dreads. Will use stratagems for -1 to hit bubble and will have the shooting if stuff enters the bord stratagem ready to use. Grey hunters will act as a screen for the characters. Rapiers will hang back on an objective.

 

My question to you SW vets is this. What does this list need most? Some more screening units? (loyal 32 guardsmen maybe??) A distraction carnifex in the form of a Redemptor dreadnought? Some added mobility with a few Rhino's/ razorbacks? What are this lists weacknesses??

 

Where are you seeing that Space Wolves can take a Chaplain Dread. I have searched the SW Codex and the Index and neither is showing this as an option?



#9
faithonwings

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It is a forgeworld model. book is called imperial armor, forces of the adaptus astartus. and yes, space wolves can take al these units. :)



#10
Chazzmos

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3. Grey hunters are an expensive screen. I would drop 3 packs and take 3 blood claw packs if you insist on double battalion. However I would go with a single battalion and invest in fenrisian wolves and cyber wolves.

Aren't Grey Hunters and Blood Claws the same points?

 

The advantage of Grey Hunters is the bolter and increased BS to 3+.  Blood Claws get +1 attack on the charge.  I would always take the Grey Hunters, as they'll get an extra shot with their bolter before a charge (Rapid Fire at 12").

 

Is that right?



#11
jbickb

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Yes that is correct and I take grey hunters fir the exact reason yo uh laid out.
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#12
faithonwings

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Hunters have one more shooting, claws one more attack. Benefit of claws is you get you get a bonus on close combat attacks due to chapter tactics not on you'r bolter shots. Cover works against shooting, but not against close combat.

Really, best reson to take claws over hunters is having an extra attack with you'r power weapon. I ussually take a mix of both. Best of both worlds.

#13
Shas Oh Dear

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Hunters have one more shooting, claws one more attack. Benefit of claws is you get you get a bonus on close combat attacks due to chapter tactics not on you'r bolter shots. Cover works against shooting, but not against close combat.

Really, best reson to take claws over hunters is having an extra attack with you'r power weapon. I ussually take a mix of both. Best of both worlds.

I definitely agree with this, I think it's also worth mentioning that grey hunters provide more reliable damage as they can shoot and therefore or out damage whether they reach the enemy or not. Blood claws benefit more from multipliers though imo. A power fist, a priest and something nearby to buff numbers of attacks (wulfen, stone or sagas) and they are devastating. Blood claws also have the psychological effect of something that needs dealing with so advancing a rhino with 2 5 man squads in it is more likely to distract your enemy from your heavy hitters than the equivalent with grey hunters. Personally I take 2 claws and 4 gh.
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#14
TiguriusX

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It depends what job you have assigned your troops.

I previously used only GH but swapped to BC after codex

One of the best and cheap assault units and they are troops

BC with power fist and WG with storm shield and power fist...all the other guys are meat shields. Those 2 models deliver 6 PF attacks on the charge. If you are down to the WG as last survivor you lone wolf him and he has 3 attacks on the charge with reroll hit/wound....he is basically a WGBL on a rampage

My shooty troop is a 5 man unit of intercessors who take objectives from other chaff
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#15
Chazzmos

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BC with power fist and WG with storm shield and power fist...all the other guys are meat shields. Those 2 models deliver 6 PF attacks on the charge. If you are down to the WG as last survivor you lone wolf him and he has 3 attacks on the charge with reroll hit/wound....he is basically a WGBL on a rampage

 

Yeah, I did this last game, but as a unit of Skyclaws, worked quite well.

 

Just on that, off topic, what does everyone think of Skyclaws?  Also, have they gone down in points?



#16
VIth

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I honestly think you’ve planned this all out in your head and haven’t played with any of these combos on the tabletop. Am I wrong? You’re probably looking at placing everyone together in one area of the board in order to get the synergy from your auras, but what is your plan to win a game? As others pointed out, your Leviathans won’t be doing anything until they’re within 24”, and I think you’re wildly overestimating how much damage the one TWLC will do. In my estimation, your opponents will simply need to place a long-range counter opposite your blob of modes and then outmaneuver you staying >24” away. If you’re committed to this, I’d add Rhinos and some jump pack characters—especially with TH/SS.

#17
faithonwings

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Check the date on the orignal post mate. Almost 4 month have past. :)

 

For the record, I think you'r right witch is why I never build this list. I wanted other people's feedback before I would spend a great amount of cash on 2 leviathans.The atempt is to build an allcommers list that can fight of hordes and knights and space elves all at the same time. Leviathans that have a +1 to wound are a great threat to all of that. But yes, it sucks at objectives and lacks mobility/

 

My current list builds around flyers for mobility. I know rhino's are hot right now but i find them to fragile for my personal taste.






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