Full Primaris viable? How?

[GreyCrow]

Hey guys!

 

Never ran Primaris but tempted to get the juicy deals. A few people here wonder whether a full Primaris force is viable or not.

 

Couple of quick questions :

- I see the Primaris units being quite dedicated and excellent at one job, but

- I see an overall Primaris list having some glaring weaknesses and

- I see a limit to the effectiveness of single Primaris units if they are not spammed

 

I may be entirely wrong here due to a lack of playtime with the Primaris, but I have a feeling Primaris list building revolves around a solid core of Intercessors, flanked by a mass of a single unit type.

 

Basically, picking a battle plan at list building with one gambit. You won't kill everything you set out to kill, but you kind of have the ability to tank what you can kill.

 

As example, I see a 1000 list of Primaris built around 1 Lieutenant, 15 Intercessors, 2 Repulsors with TwinLas and Double Onslaught being more efficient than a list of 1 Lieutenant, 15 Intercessors, 1 of the above Repulsors and 5 Plasma Inceptors for example.

 

What are your success stories with Full Primaris?

[Blindhamster]

if you go over to the BA forum, neonmole has had huge success with a pure Primaris force that has the following:

- Primaris Captain (WL artisan of war)
- Primaris Lt
- Smash Captain (hammer of baal)
- 5 Intercessors
- 5 Intercessors
- 5 Intercessors
- Redemptor Dreadnought (heavy onslaught)
- Redemptor Dreadnought (heavy onslaught)
- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)
- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)
- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)

 

He placed very well in multiple tournaments, the last of which he got 9th out of 120 people! so pure primaris can work if you know what you're doing with them. (technically the smash captain isn't pure primaris of course, but its a single character)

[Ishagu]

I've placed in the top 12 in a 60 and 50 man tournament using the following list:

 

 

Vanguard Detachment:

 

HQ:

-Techmarine, Conversion Beamer, Power Axe, Primarch's Wrath

 

Troops:

-5 Scouts, Bolters

-5 Scouts, Bolters

 

Elites:

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-Sicaran Venator, Neutron Laser, Las Cannon sponsons, Heavy Bolter

 

Heavy support:

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

 

Dedicated Transport:

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

 

---

 

Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, 400 points

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

 

 

I expect I'll be making some changes after CA.

[Blindhamster]

I've placed in the top 12 in a 60 and 50 man tournament using the following list:

 

 

Vanguard Detachment:

 

HQ:

-Techmarine, Conversion Beamer, Power Axe, Primarch's Wrath

 

Troops:

-5 Scouts, Bolters

-5 Scouts, Bolters

 

Elites:

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-Sicaran Venator, Neutron Laser, Las Cannon sponsons, Heavy Bolter

 

Heavy support:

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

 

Dedicated Transport:

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

 

---

 

Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, 400 points

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

 

 

I expect I'll be making some changes after CA.

To be fair, nearly 50% of the list isn't primaris. so it's a far stretch from "full primaris". I guess arguments could be made for Guilliman being fair game in a primaris list as hes behind the entire project.

[Panzer]

Lots of Repulsors and Intercessors for sure. Add characters for obvious reasons and Inceptors for mobility and more anti-infantry firepower. Redemptors are neat but I don't see why you should take those over another Repulsor aside from them being slightly cheaper and having a melee weapon.

[Trevak Dal]

To me, Primaris seem a lot like Tau or maybe other xenos armies, I'm more experienced with Tau so I speak with that in mind.

 

Intecessors got the statline tacticals should have without the options of special or heavy weapons. It's going back to legion tactics of "everybody here has bolters, everybody here has plasma guns" which if you look at Tau, and eldar is kinda what they do.

 

Guardians have their knife ear ninja star guns, firedragons got their long barreled meltas like how Tau firewarriors got pulse rifles or carbines (which look awesome...) Or the new hotness Tau Storm Trooper with pulse shotguns with the special weapons going to the elites, hq or heavy slot in the form of battlesuits/commanders.

 

Primaris transport is pretty much landraider-ish in points with the weaponry of predators and can be interpreted more as a support vehicle like landraiders or predators with transport being a secondary function.

 

So the idea I have is this.

 

 

3 10 man intecessors (Primaris tacticals) a lieutenant, and apothecary to keep them company front and center deployed far forward hopefully in cover to move forward every turn, deep striking Primaris battlesuits/great biker replacements to disrupt and harrass, plasma Bois in 5 man squads backing up the 10 man Ptac squads, ancient with the Primaris Pride flag, a couple of the tanks in the back, some aggressors on one side of the formation and maybe some reavers (modeled with chainswords instead of the knives for rule of cool) as a disruption element.

 

The idea being you try to move that fat block of infantry up the table, concentrate fire and when it comes to it, bang knuckles with the badguys.

 

Use the Primaris Crisis suits like you would use Tau crisis suits to pop and OG Mudbone some unit(s), maybe assault to tie them up, flit away next turn (assuming you survive) to shoot again. Main block always wants to push forward. Aggressors are edge support, hingeing in and closing like a door or gate. If you have one or two of the new dreds they are at the back of the block laying down dice.

 

In my mind's eye it looks good, but I am talking out my ass here because I don't know how much they cost in points, I don't know how squirrel :cussty their rules might be and I just aim to have a high moral, wound saving blocks of ":cuss you" marines moving forward with support elements.

[Gothical]

I am trying a similar build, but I do have a few non-Primaris concessions:

 

1) Guilliman - he is too awesome a model not to take as a centrepiece. I was originally going to go Black Consuls as my Chapter (and lose his most important buff against all but the most accommodating opponents) but the upcoming Calgar model has changed me to solid blue. I figure that as the signatory of the Primaris project he is perfectly justified in a Primaris-only force.

 

2) Stormhawk Interceptors - the army really needs some anti-air cover and although these don't have the Primaris keyword I view them as similar newfangled tech that won't go in my Salamanders oldmarine army, plus with the armoured canopy painted with a stripe the model has visual cues linking it to the Inceptors and Primaris Lieutenant. They can be kitted to bring great anti-tank firepower too.

 

Otherwise I am sticking to the Primaris lineup. I think a pair of Replusors with Twin Lascannons are mandatory to provide a solid anti-tank base (I am torn on whether to give them Heavy Onslaught Cannons or Las Talon), and Redepmtors are needed for their close combat ability whilst their Macro Plasma Incinerator can double as anti-tank in a pinch (or take HOC and slaughter infantry/light vehicles whilst Replusor flattens armour with Las Talon).

 

From there I think you have a fair amount of flexibility in the infantry to take whichever you fancy. Hellblasters with a Captain are an excellent unit, Aggressors with an Ancient and/or Apothecary can be good. Inceptors are nifty for either counter-attacking an opponents moves (Assault Bolter versions are particularly good for dealing with brought back/teleported/out-of-LOS infantry blobs, Plasma versions can pick off MEQ support elements, counter-attack TEQ Deepstrikers and go for vehicles with Overcharged volleys too).

 

I feel Reivers and Aggressors are a little weak, but you may need their capabilities given the dearth of effective melee units in a Primaris army (Captain/Lieutenant/Chaplain/Redemptor are your only other options really).

 

I favour a 10-man Intercessor squad with Bolt Rifles, Power Sword and Grenade Launchers as it provides a durable linchpin putting out a high volume of fire and surprisingly capable of melee against non-dedicated units, then 5-man units with Auto Bolt Rifles to act as mobile support - though running Stalkers and putting them into good cover is annoying for the opponent when he has stuff like the vehicles and Hellblasters to contend with too.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

if you go over to the BA forum, neonmole has had huge success with a pure Primaris force that has the following:

- Primaris Captain (WL artisan of war)

- Primaris Lt

- Smash Captain (hammer of baal)

- 5 Intercessors

- 5 Intercessors

- 5 Intercessors

- Redemptor Dreadnought (heavy onslaught)

- Redemptor Dreadnought (heavy onslaught)

- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)

- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)

- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)

 

He placed very well in multiple tournaments, the last of which he got 9th out of 120 people! so pure primaris can work if you know what you're doing with them. (technically the smash captain isn't pure primaris of course, but its a single character)

This is almost identical to my full primaris list. That I'm working on.

[Trevak Dal]

Only primarch I'll ever be interested in Fielding will be Angron.

 

I feel that dreadnoughts have always been "metal gear" heavy weapon and close combat support meant to back up foot-mobile elements, the tragedy that Terminator mounted missile launchers get 2 shots and full size dreds only get one has annoyed me for a while, and it's sad you got to give up your ccw on a normal dred to get more firepower.

 

In my head cannon, the redemptor dreds are more like the dreadknights, piloted by an astartes, but not a maimed one.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Now I know this ain't exactly the subform for this, but Hellblasters and Weapons of the Dark Age appear to have been made for each other ;)

 

I haven't bought one single Primaris unit yet, nor have I played a game with them ('kay, little fib there, one at the store with the Dark Imperium Starter Set against a mate who wanted to get into 40k). All this is hypothetical and based on Oldmarines experience and the Datasheets of the new range.

 

What Primaris are still lacking is a proper source of bubblewrap. Even the cheapest Primaris has 2W and comes at a cost. If you wanna go pure Primaris, go in hard and go for the kill. You need a solid line of Intercessors, Hellblasters as tank hunters and finally, something to take the fight to the enemy. Inceptors seem like a nice choice.

Notice the curious absence of Dreads or Tanks - you might want some, but in lieu of ablative wounds, I'd lean towards the 'horde' approach of favoring numbers over single large units to draw enemy fire. Your enemy will have high D weapons and that D will be wasted on your foot soldiers.

 

I have yet to crunch the numbers on the efficiency of Primaris wargear so I won't try to provide a list right now, but I can say that anything that helps to buff those three pillars of your force, anything that makes them dish out more or survive longer, is good.

[Dracos]

Consider this as a basic battalion

 - the Scouts are going to be converted Reiver models ... because Reivers are meh and Scout models kinda blow.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [58 PL, 1000pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

 

+ HQ +

 

Primaris Captain: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Storm of Fire, Warlord

 

Primaris Lieutenants

. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad: Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

 

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad: 4x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Hellblaster Squad: Heavy Plasma Incinerator

. 4x Hellblaster

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

+ Flyer +

 

Xiphon Interceptor: 2x Twin lascannon, Xiphon missile battery

 

++ Total: [58 PL, 1000pts] ++

 

 

[GreyCrow]

@Dracos : How would you play that?

[Dracos]

Its a 1000 pt army designed as a TAC list. 

 

Deployment from last to first.

1) The Xiphon placed opposite of the enemy anti-tank units. Designed to fly into the Captain's sphere of influence with first move.

2) Characters placed initially behind the Intercessors and in front of the Hellblasters.

3) The Hellblasters are the snipers in this army. Six feet diameter of influence and placed in cover at all cost.

4) The Aggressors placed on flank of the Intercessors to intercept basic infantry.

5) The Intercessors places 4 inches on either side of where you plan to place the Hellblasters.

6) Scouts are there to grab that pain in the ass out of the way Objective or deployed on the opposite flank of the Aggressors.

 

Too many variables for comprehensive discussion but although this is a gunline, the Aggressors and Intercessors are flexible enough to advance if the mission and enemy composition make serve the mission purpose.

 

Strike from the Shadows (which is why I need a battalion) can allow you some nice deployment shenannigans but basically is used to reposition any units that would benefit from a 9 inch move. Its not as cool as before but positive side in no need to worry about Unit numbers and PP. Imagine knowing you are having the first go and being able to suddenly push most your army 9 inches into no mans land racing into the Tau before the game starts, or fading back 9 inches making that first turn Orc charge suddenly impossible. Not to mention if you go second ... -2 to hit all Raven Guard units (this would include the flyer if I'm not mistaken

 

This is at a 1000 points. I will have ability to double this and mirror the field or I have a Counts As <Shrike> and some a 5 man Plasma-ceptor unit I'm building I want to use to apply to use to apply pressure on the enemy backfield to get at troublesome units like Reapers and Hive Guard. The second Xiphon Interceptors weight combined with the first might be able to the same (and I love the models so yeah two) but damn it even a RG successor needs jump pack troops

[autek mor]

I've placed in the top 12 in a 60 and 50 man tournament using the following list:

 

 

Vanguard Detachment:

 

HQ:

-Techmarine, Conversion Beamer, Power Axe, Primarch's Wrath

 

Troops:

-5 Scouts, Bolters

-5 Scouts, Bolters

 

Elites:

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-Sicaran Venator, Neutron Laser, Las Cannon sponsons, Heavy Bolter

 

Heavy support:

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

 

Dedicated Transport:

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

 

---

 

Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, 400 points

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

 

 

I expect I'll be making some changes after CA.

 

did your opponents target the sicaran or the repulsors first?

[GreyCrow]

Thanks guys!

 

Has anyone tried a very spammy list with let's say a 50-50% points ration between Intercessors and another unit type? Rather than spreading around in 2-3 support types?

[Lemondish]

Thanks guys!

 

Has anyone tried a very spammy list with let's say a 50-50% points ration between Intercessors and another unit type? Rather than spreading around in 2-3 support types?

Won't be entirely helpful, but prior to the latest FAQ, I had run an Intercessor heavy Deathwatch force using 5 squads of 6 (5 Intercessors and 1 Aggressor in each).

 

With Librarian support to protect against psychic MWs, they covered a lot of the board and I had hoped would be capable bubble wrap (though inefficient compared to guardsmen). They were pretty successful in drowning the board with 60 2+ in cover wounds, though they failed to adequately protect my units I wanted to screen since they couldn't be everywhere, so I found it a bit half baked.

 

I'll be returning to it now that they'll be far better at screening with the latest FAQ. Probably not very helpful since DW make them more killy and mobile than codex versions, so I am not certain how valuable this experience is here. But for objective heavy matches where you can outlast and outpace your opponent, it could be great.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks Lemondish!

 

Off the bat, the first hunch I had with Primaris is : pick a support unit you like and mostly/exclusively use this after you have made your Intercessor core.

 

It's good to see that this is not the only viable option based on you guys' experience. Still, I wonder how a 20 Intecessors + 20 Reivers list is performing at 1000 points for example.

[AdmirableGoal]

Now I know this ain't exactly the subform for this, but Hellblasters and Weapons of the Dark Age appear to have been made for each other

 

 

Haha – I play Dark Angels, and I can’t really say that you’re wrong.  :)

 

I didn’t actually do it on purpose, but I just got back from a game where I ran a list that’s about 85-95% primaris.  It did pretty well, so much so that I realized I should post in this thread during my walk home.  This is what it looked like (cleaned this up from battlescribe, so forgive the weird alternating capitalization of weapon names, etc):

 

 

Dark Angels Spearhead Detachment (AKA - Castle Plazreal)

 

Azrael, (on the chance people haven’t met our chapter master, he has the standard chapter master re-roll aura, a 4++ aura for infantry and bikes, and is no slouch in close combat or shooting, either)

 

Lieutenants w. Master-crafted bolter and power maul (free relic turns it to Mace of Redemption)

 

Company Ancient: Power Sword (relic option for Heavenfall blade)

 

1x Ravenwing Darkshroud (again, just in case folks haven’t run into DA too often, this gives a -1 to hit aura in shooting for 6”

 

5-man Devastator squad with cherub – 1 Heavy bolter, 2 lascannons, 1 missile launcher, 1 sergeant (and one last time, in case folks don’t know DA, our chapter tactic allows units who don’t move to re-roll their own 1’s in shooting, which is less useful that you might think, but is fantastic on a devastator squad, though given how aggressively they get shot at and how easy they are to kill, I’ve started to just deploy them in the Azrael/Darkshroud blob so that they can stay protected on turn 1 before Azrael rolls out with his posse of untrustworthy Greenwing)

 

2x 10-man Hellblasters Squads

 

 

Deathwatch Battalion Detachment

 

Librarian: 2) Might of Heroes, 6) Null Zone, Force sword, Storm Bolter

 

Watch Captain: Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Master-crafted boltgun, Thunder hammer

 

6x Intercessors w. bolt rifles, auxiliary grenade launcher

 

5x Intercessors w bolt rifles, aux grenade launcher; 2x plasma inceptors

 

5x intercessors w. auto bolt rifles; 1x Aggressor with Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets; 1x Reiver with Bolt Carbine

 

 

 

Couple of quick questions :

- I see the Primaris units being quite dedicated and excellent at one job, but

- I see an overall Primaris list having some glaring weaknesses and

- I see a limit to the effectiveness of single Primaris units if they are not spammed

 

I may be entirely wrong here due to a lack of playtime with the Primaris, but I have a feeling Primaris list building revolves around a solid core of Intercessors, flanked by a mass of a single unit type.

 

Basically, picking a battle plan at list building with one gambit. You won't kill everything you set out to kill, but you kind of have the ability to tank what you can kill.

 

You aren’t totally wrong about this, honestly.  I’ve spent the last five months begrudgingly cutting out all of the unique Dark Angels units out of my lists because they just weren’t usually viable for their points, or at least not for my mostly-beginner skill level, as I have returned to the game after 15 years away (and of course returned by foolish without really understanding the Primaris/old marine divide, and by foolishly assuming that SM would still be a good, forgiving army to re-learn with, haha).

 

This current list is close to what you describe – a core of intercessors with a few other Primaris sprinkled into the Fortis Kill Teams, and, uh, well, I don’t want to admit that 20 DA hellblasters is spam, exactly, but, it’s, uh…not not spam, either, haha.  And my main gambit is obviously to both protect and juice my hellblaster squads with the Azreal/LT/Ancient/Darkshroud bubble, and Weapons of the Dark Age.

 

I would argue that Deathwatch adds plenty on their own here beyond my plasma nonsense (though the plasma nonsense is still what makes the whole thing work, to be fair).  They obviously have Special Issue Ammunition, which is incredibly useful.  That said, they have a very cool bag of tricks beyond SIA, including mixed squads and a ton of useful stratagems. The latter can start to eat a lot of CP, so they requires little restraint, a little luck, and also a little bit of experience in knowing how to use them.  Not that I have much – today was basically the first time where I didn’t mess up using them.

 

All three of those reasons combined are why I’ve been trying to make a joint DA/DW list work.*   The Deathwatch detachment helps to fixsome of the problems problems in the DA codex that I haven’t figured out how to solve yet.  Today’s MVPs were actually the DW squad with the inceptors and their support Watch Captain.  I pulled off a  multi-stage maneuver with them that probably won me the game, as it got rid of -1 to hit bubble that was protecting most of the enemy force and making it almost impossible to justify overcharging my hellblasters.

 

While I’m not doing building a few models I need to run the version of this list that I’d like to,and while there are definite weaknesses in it, it’s at least not terrible, I think.  Also, it would take very little work, points-wise to swap out every model in this list for a primaris variant, saving Azrael. Well, and the Darkshroud, if you want to count it.  Happy to run the primaris variant for anyone who is curious, though.

 

Anyway, I’ve already typed too much, so I’ll leave it here, though I might circle back later to write the post I meant to when I first saw this topic about a Space Wolves player I know who runs a mostly primaris list that is proving very hard for anyone else in our FLGS to beat.

 

 

 

*That is, beyond the very fun lore I’ve written around up it after I built a DA-inspired Deathwatch team for a Kill Team campaign.  I’ve modeled all of my DW, primaris or not, with hoods, robes, and other knightly bits, and I’m painting them all with insignia from Dark Angel successor chapters.  Do you think, perhaps, that the Dark Angels, who had always been so very dutiful about sending plenty of marines to the Deathwatch, may have started to see extra appeal in making sure that the Deathwatch was well supported?  Perhaps around 100 years or so after Guilliman came back, when they were starting to get some more probing questions about why, exactly, they were so hesitant to promote Primaris marines who had unquestionably earned promotions?  Is it possible, perhaps, that it occurred to someone, that being chosen to serve in the Deathwatch was, like promotion within the DA, both a great honor for any marine, and also a way to reinforce the already existing, unofficial intelligence network that was completely embedded in an organization outside their own?  Especially an intelligence network that, for example, already has the perfect cover of a bunch of already existing black ops teams who are constantly running missions, meaning no one notices the occasional extra off-the-books black ops mission in pursuit of certain parties of interest?  Look, these are all very interesting questions. There is absolutely nothing untoward happening out at the edge of the Dark Imperium around Fort Pykman, far from the oversight of the Inquisition, the Imperium, or even that many humans.  In fact, this line of questioning isn’t just hypothetical, it strikes me as borderline heretical, almost like you think that the Dark Angels shouldn’t try to help the Deathwatch and like you might actually be sympathizing with xenos. 

[Ishagu]

 

 

I've placed in the top 12 in a 60 and 50 man tournament using the following list:

 

 

Vanguard Detachment:

 

HQ:

-Techmarine, Conversion Beamer, Power Axe, Primarch's Wrath

 

Troops:

-5 Scouts, Bolters

-5 Scouts, Bolters

 

Elites:

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-5 Reivers, Bolt Carbines, Sgt with Carbine and Knife

-Sicaran Venator, Neutron Laser, Las Cannon sponsons, Heavy Bolter

 

Heavy support:

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

-5 Hellblasters, Plasma Incinerators

 

Dedicated Transport:

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

-Repulsor, Las Talon, Twin Las Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Rocket Pod, Two storm-bolters

 

---

 

Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, 400 points

 

Lord of War:

-Roboute Guilliman

 

 

 

 

I expect I'll be making some changes after CA.

did your opponents target the sicaran or the repulsors first?

Typically one of the Repulsors. It's actually easy to hide the tanks as the Sicaran is quick, meaning you can deploy if off to one side then mover over to Guilliman to get in range of an aura for a deadly shooting phase, and the Repulsors can be deployed behind LOS blocking terrain then fly over. Proper gaming tables aren't barren shooting galleries.

 

Thr key to the list is that it's not actually static. Every single model can move without any penalty to the shooting capabilites. It works by advancing into the mid table then deploying the various Primaris Marines after objectives.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for your feedback Admirable Goal!

 

20 Helblasters must be quite a sight and quite powerful with the Dark Angels.

 

I get that feeling too about the blob of something ‘spammy’, especially at 2000 pts.

 

Tbh, I have a feeling that the game is originally meant to be played at 500-1000 points level based on the fluff, and that originally was the model count you would get in the original 2nd Edition.

 

Variety doesn’t necessarily seem to be super useful beyond a specific point.

[durdle-durdle]

So is there any consensus on which chapter fields an all-primaris army best?

 

My gut reaction is that deathwatch probably do. With special ammo and teleportation strats to move them into effective range, deathwatch seem the go to.

 

As a second, I would guess dark angels. With their plasma strat, hellblasters seem amazing, and the ability to re-roll 1’s with no captain needed also goes together well with them. A darkshroud giving a -1 to hit bubble also seems quite good.

[Panzer]

Definitely Deathwatch, yeah.

[AdmirableGoal]

Thanks for your feedback Admirable Goal!

 

20 Helblasters must be quite a sight and quite powerful with the Dark Angels.

 

It’s not too shabby, no!  I’d been running 10 until yesterday, and in retrospect I should have moved to 20 far earlier than I did.  I’m a little embarrassed to admit that I’m actually going to add another 5 in one of the DW squads from my list above, but, hey, desperate times, desperate measures, etc. 

 

 

I get that feeling too about the blob of something ‘spammy’, especially at 2000 pts.

 

 

 

Yeah, this isn’t actually the kind of list that I really want to run if I’m being honest, it’s just the first thing I’ve found that doesn’t seem to get tabled quite so easily like, well, everything else I’ve tried, haha.  That might all change in a few weeks, though, so I’m not complaining yet.

 

 

 

Tbh, I have a feeling that the game is originally meant to be played at 500-1000 points level based on the fluff, and that originally was the model count you would get in the original 2nd Edition.

 

Variety doesn’t necessarily seem to be super useful beyond a specific point.

 

 

Yeah, you might be onto something here.  With primaris especially,it often (though not always) feels like trying to do more than one or two things well means that you sacrifice doing anything well enough for a list that can hold up, even in most casual games.  As many people have observed and said before, their single-squad-with-a-purpose nature is more than a little bit like Eldar in that regard.

 

So is there any consensus on which chapter fields an all-primaris army best?

 

My gut reaction is that deathwatch probably do. With special ammo and teleportation strats to move them into effective range, deathwatch seem the go to.

 

 

Yeah, the answer seems to pretty clearly be Deathwatch.  I got more than a little lucky in that I’d already built up and painted a good chunk of DA-Deathwatch for killteam.  The only weakness that Primaris seem to have in Deathwatch (aside from the usual weird issues that spring up around their limited wargear options, their ability to use non-repulsor transports, etc) are the same as anything else in Deathwatch – limited anti-tank.  Which, as I said, is not actually a Primaris problem, it’s a general issue for Deathwatch that’s (not incorrectly) baked into their rules and codex.

 

As a second, I would guess dark angels. With their plasma strat, hellblasters seem amazing, and the ability to re-roll 1’s with no captain needed also goes together well with them. A darkshroud giving a -1 to hit bubble also seems quite good.

 

 

While I think this could be true down the line, I don’t know that it’s true just yet.  Don’t get me wrong, our hellblasters are obviously fantastic, and they’ve been the core of my lists for months. After that, though, it gets tricky. It’s pretty difficult to easily integrate other primaris units into a DA list because so much of our codex is designed around the RAVENWING and DEATHWING keywords, which none of the primaris units are able to get, outside of a few narrow (and usually unhelpful) exceptions.  This is all due to some issues in the existing lore (a set of circumstances I actually like despite making my gameplay a little tougher), but I don’t think it’s going to be a knot I have to keep trying to untie for much longer, based on the signs.

 

That isn’t to say that primaris are useless, of course.  Parking a squad of intercessors on a backfield objective syncs up very well with our chapter tactics, and is even a good case to give them stalker bolt rifles.  Aggressors rule for shooting twice if they don’t move also syncs up for the same reason, but I haven’t quite figured out how to get them into range to make the combo work effectively without usually forcing the hellblaster squads directly behind them to go around, costing them precious inches that I need for getting the hellblasters into rapidfire.  The -1 LD debuff  that Reivers get is hypothetically useful in making our Interromancy psychic discipline easier to use, though that single ability isn’t really enough to fully justify their use on its own. Which is to say that DA have the same issues in figuring out exactly what niche Reivers are supposed to fill that every other chapter has. ;)

 

 

I have a theory that other players might disagree with.  I’d actually like to hear from those people, as I’m genuinely unsure if it’s just the result of the very small, very casual local meta at one of my FLGS.  Broadly, I actually think that there’s a case that Space Wolves have the best codex of any Space Marine chapter (okay, I have two theories that other players might might disagree with, haha).* 

 

Taking that assertion (which I readily accept could be woefully incorrect and would gladly discuss at length in this or another thread)* aside for a moment, the list that no one can beat at one of my stores right now is actually the one that first prompted me to register to finally register here after lurking for a few months so that I could respond in this thread.  There’s a guy I know who was actually an Eldar player who, for whatever reason, decided to build a Primaris Space Wolves army.  It’s got some weaknesses, but he’s learned it really well, and right now he’s beating the pants off the rest of us with it.  Here’s how it generally looks:

 

 

Battalion:

 

Primaris Wolf Lord in gravis

Primaris Wolf Guard battle leader with power axe and bolt carbine

 

 

1x 5-man intercessor squad with bolt rifles

 

1x 5-man intercessor squad with stalker bolt rifles

 

1x 10-man intercessor squad (usually sent on the

 

 

Vanguard 1:

 

Primaris Rune Priest

 

1x squad with 3-4 aggressors with auto boltstorm

Either 2x 5-man Reiver Squads or 1x 5-man and 1x 10-man Reiver Squad, all with combat knives grav chutes and usually grapnel

 

Replusor with lascannon/lastalon loadout, and lots of other guns

 

 

Vanguard 2:

 

Bjorn the Fell-handed

 

1 redemptor dreadnought with macroplasma

 

 

2x wulfen dreadnoughts with Fenrisian Great Axes and Blizzard shields

 

 

 

The general outline looks like this –both of the Reiver squads deepstrike, though one is usually grav while one grapnels to board edge.  He spends 1 or 2 CP to put either one or two of the intercessor squads on the hunt (SW board edge deepstrike), but the ten-man squad basically always goes.  The Aggressors and Wolf Lord load up into the repulsor. 

 

On turn one, he spends the 3 CP for Cloaked by the storm and moves everything up the board, keeping a lot of his big assets within 6” of the rune priest for the -1 to hit.  He may not do this as consistently against other players, but I sometimes see it on turn 2, as well, as it’s a very good way to counter my overcharged plasma bomb.  Relatedly, the rune priest will always try to cast Tempest’s Wrath on my hellblasters, as if he gets this off my hellblasters are borked for a full turn of shooting.  The frontline that’s outside of his rune priest bubble are usually both Wulfen Dreads, who have usually advanced, and, of course, have 4++ invulns, and thus less need of the Rune priest.  The Redemptor is sometimes out of the -1 to hit bubble as well. 

 

By turn 2, he’s usually got the front of his force in charge range.  The Reivers drop wherever they’re able and needed to try to run a screening charge, often the remaining wulfen dread, sometimes both, and on my worst days, both and the redemptor.  Depending on how he’s deployed and moved, the aggressors can get out early.  If I haven’t managed to knock out or bracket at least either his repulsor or Redemptor by the end of 2, as well as taking out one wulfen dread and putting a dent in another, I’m probably going to get overrun on turn 3, because he’s got aggressors, Bjorn, and 3 characters coming at the front of my army, and usually has Reivers and the 10-man intercessor squad starting to chew through my backline screen and moving towards my hellblaster blob.

 

Basically, the whole thing is premised on using the mobility of Space Wolves and their chapter tactic, which allows their “normal” weapons to hit on 2s when they charge or allows Powerfists and Thunder hammers to still hit on 3s when they charge.

 

There are variants of it due to his ongoing tweaks, but the only big one of note is the “standard” 5 Wulfen with TH and SS who he has moved in and out of his list because they usually get shot off the board before they can do much in combat.  I have debated with him over it because I think they’re such a bullet sponge that that still makes them worth it.  Unfortunately for me, he finally picked up a Primaris Chaplain that he’s turned into a wolf priest, and now I think I might be seeing a second wulfen squad.

 

I play some other SW players at a different store, and both of them run variants of the Wulfen bomb loaded into a stormwolf.  They both use Cloaked by the Storm to protect the storm wolf. I actually think the primaris list is close to the same thing, it’s just a little slower and, well, primaris. 

 

To be fair, the primaris list has a few key non-primaris units in it – the Wulfen Dreads and Bjorn.  He actually wants to run the entire thing as primaris for aesthetic reasons, but is fine with Bjorn and the Wulfen dreads because they’re still dreadnoughts, and don’t create the weird height contrast issues that he hates about the primaris/old marine divide.  This is why he’s also been fine with the Wulfen that he’s moved in and out of the list.  (and for whatever it’s worth, we and everyone else at the store are in general agreement that both Wulfen and Wulfen dreads are different enough from old “regular” marines that we all still consider this to be a primaris army).

 

I also think that while he actually has a broader range of primaris units that he does get use out of beyond the core of intercessors, the list still basically functions within the theory that GreyCrow laid out in the first post: core of intercessors that is flanked by dreadnoughts (and one T8, shooty tank that could probably be swapped for 1-2 shooty dreads).

 

For the record, GreyCrow, as you can probably tell by the number of words I’ve expended on it in the past two days, I think you’re definitely onto something with your theory!  I hadn’t thought of it that way until you said it, but it makes a lot of sense.

 

The list above certainly has weaknesses, and I think the creator knows that.  Our store is small enough that there are some very strong armies that he hasn’t had to fight regularly.  I don’t think he’s faced Thousand Sons, and I don’t think he’s fought Eldar of any kind, and while  I think he’s fought a few knights, I don’t think he’s had to beat them while fighting them as part of a truly nasty soup list.  I also don’t think he’s had to fight Tau, who certainly have some tools to help blunt his charges.  But even with all of that, it’s still a pretty successful list, and gives me some reason to think that Space Wolves might have some tools that help make them work a little better.

 

I have actually been wondering if Blood Angels could see success in making an all-primaris list  work through a somewhat similar application of their chapter tactics, as the +1 to wound from the red thirst actually strikes me as potentially far stronger than +1 to hit.  I don’t know their codex nearly as well, though, as the only BA player I know has been playing kill team nonstop for months.

 

Granted, this new Imperial Fists preview and other specialist detachments from Vigilus might have all of us reconsidering everything we currently know about primaris in short rder.

 

*I’m not speaking out of jealousy here, I promise!  I have spent the last 3 months running several different lists that featured Space Wolves detachments so that I could use the fun, fluffy, and (IMO) underrated strat, The Lion and the Wolf!   I think you guys are better than you realize!  EMBRACE YOUR TRUE LEGACY AS THE SONS OF RUSS, EXECUTE THE POST-CA META!

 

 

** (side note: I have a theory that your relative fear of aggressors is a sign of whether you play marines or not.  The other big players at this store play Orks, Tyranids, and cultist-heavy Chaos, and are all now terrified of aggressors.  I, on the other hand, ignore them, which confused this guy until I explained: “Look, it’s a lot of shooting, so there’s some help from weight of dice, but they’re still just boltguns.  I have boltguns, and I think they kinda suck.”  Everyone else, of course, is T3, has a bad save, or both.  The 3+ may not be worth what it used to be, but hey, at least I’m not scared of Aggressors shooting at me, haha)

[GreyCrow]

Cheers Goal ! That’s a thorough analysis here !

 

I don’t blame you for adding 5 more Helblasters to your collection here.

It seems to me that this is the way to go as well from recent experience with Old Marines. Single units just lack the punch required to make any kind of noticeable difference.

 

It seems more interesting to really build power somewhere then play strategy to compensate for weaknesses, or take the associated losses that you expect as part of your design.

 

I don’t blame you for the Helblasters because I recently ran a list at 1000 points with :

Cheap Captain

20 naked Tacticals

5 Scouts

2 Las/Bolter predators

2 Vindicators

 

Only ran it because that’s the models I had, original list was :

Cheap Captain

20 naked Tacticals

4 Las/Bolter Predators

Iron Hands for both of them of course ! Legal with Spearhead Detachment

 

Granted, the Predators are undercosted for what they bring. But this list packed such a punch!

 

Yes it’s spammy, yes it’s not following the Battle Company structure, but boy it works.

Had I had the cash, I would not be beneath fielding a list with 6 to 8 Predators and 40 to 60 Tacticals at 2000 points.

 

Seems to me that it would go a similar route with the Primaris.

Example, at 2000 points, one can comfortably fit :

Captain, Lieutenants

40 Intercessors

30 Hellblasters

 

That is some serious firepower here. Out of Rapid Fire range and without overcharge and without rerolls, 30 Hellblaster melt 11 MEQ a turn. That’s 36” effective range from starting position.

 

I have a feeling units in 40k are calibrated to kill each turn around 10% worth of their points in MEQ wounds, more or less depending on specialties, and more if they are close combat (to account for casualties while on the way).

 

Therefore, to make things easier, you want to reliably build an army that can get that consistent damage. If you spread out your force in unit types, you lack the effective ability to do so reliably unless going for complex crossfire schemes.

[Volt]

if you go over to the BA forum, neonmole has had huge success with a pure Primaris force that has the following:

- Primaris Captain (WL artisan of war)

- Primaris Lt

- Smash Captain (hammer of baal)

- 5 Intercessors

- 5 Intercessors

- 5 Intercessors

- Redemptor Dreadnought (heavy onslaught)

- Redemptor Dreadnought (heavy onslaught)

- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)

- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)

- Repulsor (lascannon loadout)

 

He placed very well in multiple tournaments, the last of which he got 9th out of 120 people! so pure primaris can work if you know what you're doing with them. (technically the smash captain isn't pure primaris of course, but its a single character)

I just tried this list out, and while the repulsors were some real heavy hitters (and I should have been more aggressive with them), all I can say regarding the Redemptors is that they just suck. The lack of a machine spirit equivalent rule results in them always shooting at a 4+ when moving, and just gimps their ability to knock out enemy guns before they can shoot back. Which is only worsened by how the Redemptors degrade pretty quickly and don't have that many wounds either. IMO the Redemptors would be better swapped out with Aggressors, Inceptors, or just taking more non-primaris units. 

 

Although what maps did he play on anyway? Terrain probably effects the durability of Redemptors greatly.