71 replies to this topic

[Jud Cottrell]

Just putting this here for speculation, rumours and even wishlisting!

 

 

 

Well we already know that the 8 are back for FSE. So that's reason enough for T'au players to buy it!

 

I'm also hoping that there will be more reductions across the board for T'au. Crisis suits have been mentioned but I think there's scope for more.

I love my Stormsurge but I feel with the new Imperial Knights book they're a bit over priced for what you're getting.

 

Anyone heard anything new? 

 

Anything you're hoping to get out of the book?

[Panzer]

Honestly considering that I'm pretty much pleased with most of our units for their cost I don't really expect much.

A points drop for Crisis and Skyray, maaaybe Piranhas as well since they never seem to fit in any of my lists.

We also can't mention Crisis without mentioning their weapon and support system options.

• AFP is too expensive for how bad it is
• BC are fine imo
• CIB might be a bit too strong compared to the rest even at 18ppm. Especially annoying considering that you get only 1 bit per Commander box and none in the Crisis box
• Flamer are fine imo but require a different playstyle and you have to take lots of them
• Fusion Blaster are too expensive for a BS4+ platform. Period.
• Missile Pods are too expensive and also kinda redundant with MissileSides anyway so no wonder nobody takes them on Crisis or Commander
• Plasma rifle need either S8 or D2 to be a proper option again but since we can't really expect stats changes in the CA they need a points drop as well. Only 1p should be enough tho if the CIB becomes more expensive since Plasma rifle already cost only 2p more than Flamer and 3p more than Burst cannons. That's how bad they are in comparison. Makes me sad thinking about it.
• ATS is pretty much useless. It was a worse option than a third weapon before and then GW makes it even more expensive. Ridiculous.
• CDS is neat but niche. Exceptionally strong on T'au Sept Suits against a melee army (they basically have BS3.5+ in Overwatch with it lol) okay on other Sept Suits against a melee army and completely wasted against non melee armies which there are a lot more of. That's the fate of being a niche option tho.
• Drone Controller is okay I guess
• EWO basically same deal as with CDS except that hitting with -1 to the roll makes it a very unpopular choice on a BS4+ unit.
• Multi-tracker ... lol it got more expensive and got nerfed and nobody was already taking it before. No clue what GW was thinking the last time they nerfed it but at this point it wouldn't surprise me if GW would nerf it again just because. It's just the most basic Markerlight benefit we can get for 10ppm and uses up a weapon slot AND you have to shoot at the same target with all your weapons. I mean ... I rather just take two BS4+ Markerlights instead and call it a day. In its current form it's worth maybe 3p max I'd say.
• Shield Generator is good as is. Maybe a bit cheaper considering a 4++ is not as valuable as a third weapon and we have Drones to protect them anyway but it's not a terrible option. I still take it every once in a while in friendly matches when I don't feel like I HAVE to burst my target in a single round.
• Target Lock is another basically useless option for Crisis Suits. With M8 and FLY and deep strike capability they already are mobile enough and don't need to advance. The only Crisis suits I ever advanced are Flamer suits and they hit automatically anyway. They could completely remove this option on Crisis for all I care.
• Velocity-tracker is fine. Almost for free at 2ppm and gives a decent bonus. Not as good as a third weapon as always but it's okay.

Overall most support systems would probably work better as Stratagems I feel. Only problem here would be that we can use each Stratagem only once per phase. Oh and such a change would fit more into a BIG FAQ/Errata instead of CA anyway. ^^

 

I gave up on Carbine Firewarriors ever becoming better than Rifle Firewarriors except in special cases like Vior'la and that it's not a change to expect in the CA. I keep drifting offtopic it seems lol

 

I don't own a Stormsurge so I can't say anything about its point efficiency but it indeed seems like everyone is taking Riptides over Stormsurges ... not very surprising considering how powerful Saviour Protocols are and that the Stormsurge is lacking the Battlesuit keyword tho.

 

Kroot could do well with another points reduction as well considering a min unit is more expensive than a min unit of Firewarriors but is overall a weaker choice despite having twice the models beginning from the armour and weapon and ending with the amount of support they get ... or rather don't get. They also can't really compete with Cultists and Guardsmen due lack of support despite having the superior gun and a scout move which is a shame. Instead of a points reduction GW could give them an additional Attack as well tho. Then we could actually use them for melee purposes a little bit since a single attack hitting on 3+ with S4 AP0 D1 is pretty much useless for a melee unit as we've seen so often with Marines lol

[LaLongCarabine]

I can agree with much of what you're laying down Panzer. Though I like ATS for riptides, they do seem useless on crisis suits, I have a feeling much of the systems were conceived with the understanding that crisis suits might go back to 2 weapons max with 1 additional system like they used to in 4th/5th.

 

Plasma has an easy fix by merging their profile with O'Shova's high intensity rifle. S6, AP-4, D2. Makes them able to handle elite infantry like plasma rifles used to, it also differentiates tau plasma from imperial plasma again.

 

Personally I feel Crisis suits would see a mass resurgence if they just finally defined the Jetpack keyword, which could easily happen in CA18.  I'm kinda surprised GW hasn't already, bringing back JSJ would triple sales of XV25s, 8s, 95s, and 104s.

 

Then again I'm not sure if this is calculated hope or pure wishlisting...

[Panzer]

ATS is great when you don't have the alternative of another weapon. So mostly just not great for Crisis Suits.

The problem with S6 Plasma rifles is that you won't the targets you want to shoot it at only on a 3+ instead of 2+ like other factions Plasma. Especially Hellblaster who have S8 AP-4 D2 at 30". I'd still rather take CIB with 3 S8 AP-1 D1d3 shots over Plasma with 2  S6 AP-4 D2 shots against elite infantry. For Guardsmen and Skitarii etc you don't really need Plasma and are better off with Burst Cannons ... or CIBs as well.

 

You don't "define" keywords. Keywords get used in other rules. It just so happens that FLY gets used in a lot of rules and kinda overlaps with things GW would have used the Jump Pack and Jet Pack keywords for.

Imo it's very unlikely that we get JSJ back. One reason is because many people kept complaining to GW that it was not fun to play against and even keep mentioning it still and that they're glad it's gone ... and lets face it there are more non-T'au player than T'au player in the community. The other reason is because they gave that rule already to one Sept specific relic and one Sept specific Stratagem.

I also personally don't feel it's needed. I haven't even used the JSJ Stratagem once (I happen to play Dal'yth) ever since the Codex dropped. The fact that all our Jet Pack units also have the FLY keyword which lets us move over units&terrain and lets us fall back and shoot gives our army another but just as great dynamic. Now instead of desperately trying to avoid getting charged we can just brace it and keep going or even charge non-melee units ourselves and prevent them from shooting.

[Jud Cottrell]

Yeah, I can’t see jsj making a comeback. Though there is a relic for that if you want to.
Though a pts reduction on Crisis Suits and their weapons would be very welcome.
I usually take 2 teams and have had a reasonable experience with them. I don’t think they’re bad but definitely need some love.

As Panzer said Kroot too need something (I love the concept of them but they suck on the table) I like the idea of an extra attack.

Again the Stormsurge is over costed for what you get but I’ll still run it either way!

Anyone know when the book will be released?

[Progenitor]

Agreed on ATS on Crisis being junk, does work on my Stormsurge though. I'd actually really like to have Crisis suit become a mainstay again, they are THE iconic T'au unit after all. A fancy new kit might be nice too. 

[Panzer]

I recently wrote a Crisis list (again) trying to not spam Drones (so lots of Shield Gens) ... something like 11 Crisis Suits with 6 Shield Drones on the 3 Suit flamer unit, a Commander and 2x3 Broadsides with 6 Marker Drones each and that's all I could fit into a 2k list. After all I still ended up with half the models being Drones lol

Anyway, yes it would be great if we could play a proper Crisis list after CA again but I believe it when I see it.

Edited by sfPanzer, 29 November 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[Triszin]

Might end up using the 8. to field my titanfall army. would push me to finish it. but I'm having fun working on it at my leisurely pace

[Panzer]

I'm definitely looking forward to The Eight. If they get proper Datasheets instead of just fix loadouts for Crisis and Commander and of course an exception to the Commander rule so you can actually use them in Matched Play then I'm seriously considering building them myself.

[Jud Cottrell]

Yeah, I’m hoping to build a FSE element to my force, I love Battle Suits of all types and think it’ll be a cool avenue to go down.
Hopefully Chapter Approved would make a Suit heavy force a viable option.

I have the same hopes as sfPanzer, will be interesting to see how the data sheets are set up, options would be epic!

Triszin, have you made any progress on the Titanfall project? Was a fun thread.

Not long to wait now!

[Triszin]

Yeah, I’m hoping to build a FSE element to my force, I love Battle Suits of all types and think it’ll be a cool avenue to go down.
Hopefully Chapter Approved would make a Suit heavy force a viable option.

I have the same hopes as sfPanzer, will be interesting to see how the data sheets are set up, options would be epic!

Triszin, have you made any progress on the Titanfall project? Was a fun thread.

Not long to wait now!

got scorch  and legion base coated.

 

randomly got another ghost keel for 18$, guy built it at my local store and didnt want it.

 

so I now have *3 ghost keels.

 

Started making ronin

 

also have been paining the troops slowly.

[brother_b]

 

Yeah, I’m hoping to build a FSE element to my force, I love Battle Suits of all types and think it’ll be a cool avenue to go down.
Hopefully Chapter Approved would make a Suit heavy force a viable option.

I have the same hopes as sfPanzer, will be interesting to see how the data sheets are set up, options would be epic!

Triszin, have you made any progress on the Titanfall project? Was a fun thread.

Not long to wait now!

got scorch  and legion base coated.

 

randomly got another ghost keel for 18$, guy built it at my local store and didnt want it.

 

so I now have *3 ghost keels.

 

Started making ronin

 

also have been paining the troops slowly.

 

 

Bust out some pics, I'd love to see what you've got in the works.

[Jud Cottrell]

Triszin, glad you’re making progress on them!

Well according to today’s Matched Play preview for Chapter Approved, the 8 will count as a single LoW slot and will come in at just over 1000pts!

Now I’m definitely intrigued.

Question is can I get away painting O’Shovah and the rest of the 8 in my colour scheme? As I’d rather not paint them red.

[Triszin]

Triszin, glad you’re making progress on them!

Well according to today’s Matched Play preview for Chapter Approved, the 8 will count as a single LoW slot and will come in at just over 1000pts!

Now I’m definitely intrigued.

Question is can I get away painting O’Shovah and the rest of the 8 in my colour scheme? As I’d rather not paint them red.

just over a 1000 points sounds really good honestly.

[chapter master 454]

Main issue with crisis is the odd relation between support systems and weapons. Really, Crisis should have 4 slots total with one being purely for support systems (same for commanders imo). I mean, when you put an ATS on a riptide with a HBC it is literally an Avenger Gatling Cannon and let me tell you from my knights, those are some good pieces of kit!

 

Some things to note, while not a T'au player myself I have had experience from helping a friend build his tau army and even consider jumping in when CA arrives or just after but some things I noticed.

 

EWO is straight garbage due to it being on a model to model basis. If it allowed a unit to react by having one member take it, it could have some viability.

CDS is...well...I call it the "points wasted on trying to fix something that has gone too far south now". It is a system you never want to have to make use of and thus could be points spent elsewhere. Really, this could of been like stims and turned into a stratagem rather than a system really.

ATS is arguably one of the best systems you can add along with 3 others I will mention. Due to just adding raw stats to a weapon, it can make some weapons really good, mainly those who have low AP benefitting the most (though AP5 fusion blasters are funny!..to have...just not so much to use!)

Multi-Tracker is another option that holds weight, having the re-roll 1s if you focus fire isn't a bad deal really but it can be more detrimental to bigger units like the stormsurge.

Shield generator: support system number one. Bar none. Do NOT knock 4++ especially considering where you will have it, it can make crisis a lot more durable and able to survive a round of shooting.

Target Lock. More like System Locked because you are taking this on riptides. No Excuse. Take it. No, just stop. Let me help. "Riptides have a target lock support system and one other support system from the list" Broadsides can take this if they want to...move...

Velocity tracker I feel is the ultimate tech choice system. Very powerful, especially against any army that doesn't know what wheels are!

[Waking Dreamer]

Triszin, glad you’re making progress on them!
Well according to today’s Matched Play preview for Chapter Approved, the 8 will count as a single LoW slot and will come in at just over 1000pts!
Now I’m definitely intrigued.
Question is can I get away painting O’Shovah and the rest of the 8 in my colour scheme? As I’d rather not paint them red.

just over a 1000 points sounds really good honestly.

Well I don't think it said, "just" over 1000 points, but actually "...over 1000 points". But hopefully it would be cheaper than the 1300+ points required when calculate it from scratch.

Ideally, it should also generate at least 3CP, because in a standard 2K point army, having more than half the points investment not generating any CP is....

Excited though, pretty excited.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Main issue with crisis is the odd relation between support systems and weapons. Really, Crisis should have 4 slots total with one being purely for support systems (same for commanders imo). I mean, when you put an ATS on a riptide with a HBC it is literally an Avenger Gatling Cannon and let me tell you from my knights, those are some good pieces of kit!

 

Some things to note, while not a T'au player myself I have had experience from helping a friend build his tau army and even consider jumping in when CA arrives or just after but some things I noticed.

 

EWO is straight garbage due to it being on a model to model basis. If it allowed a unit to react by having one member take it, it could have some viability.

CDS is...well...I call it the "points wasted on trying to fix something that has gone too far south now". It is a system you never want to have to make use of and thus could be points spent elsewhere. Really, this could of been like stims and turned into a stratagem rather than a system really.

ATS is arguably one of the best systems you can add along with 3 others I will mention. Due to just adding raw stats to a weapon, it can make some weapons really good, mainly those who have low AP benefitting the most (though AP5 fusion blasters are funny!..to have...just not so much to use!)

Multi-Tracker is another option that holds weight, having the re-roll 1s if you focus fire isn't a bad deal really but it can be more detrimental to bigger units like the stormsurge.

Shield generator: support system number one. Bar none. Do NOT knock 4++ especially considering where you will have it, it can make crisis a lot more durable and able to survive a round of shooting.

Target Lock. More like System Locked because you are taking this on riptides. No Excuse. Take it. No, just stop. Let me help. "Riptides have a target lock support system and one other support system from the list" Broadsides can take this if they want to...move...

Velocity tracker I feel is the ultimate tech choice system. Very powerful, especially against any army that doesn't know what wheels are!

 

One of the things about using support systems on a Crisis suit is the opportunity to reduce the extremely high points per wound they usually have. Obviously it only works if they are costed in a more sane manner in the first place but the rumoured 32pts might open a tiny chink of opportunity. If the base cost of the suit drops then the cheaper options for weapons and systems get more appealing and worthwhile - proportionately the more expensive premium options benefit less. To give a couple of examples of what I mean if we were to assume no changes to wargear and only the reduction to 32 for the bare Crisis suit :

 

Crisis, 2 x PR, VT goes from 66 to 56 points, a 15% drop. ~19ppw is still expensive for T5/3+ but not ridiculous

Crisis, 3 x CIB goes from 96 to 86 points, a 10% drop. ~ 29ppw is still painting a huge target on them

 

The cheaper options are the best for making the crisis team less of a prime target, VT to make a couple of weapons hit better result in a unit with less shots but also a lot less spendy for the same amount of durability. Poor BS is the bane of Crisis Teams so anything which helps fix that, even situationally, is worth considering. 

 

Shield generator can be handy as an option on the occasional suit, guess who gets the melta to the face when you fail that 2+ for saviour protocols?

 

It gets a lot harder to justify the more expensive ones on Crisis Teams and the other cheaper ones are really not that useful.

 

The other thing to bear in mind is that unless we are planning to buff up the Crisis Suits with stratagems and/or characters they are badly outperformed by other options in our codex in almost any role. It is only when we start popping stratagems on them - and Battlesuits have some of the best ones - that they might shine.

[Triszin]

I still think they should add a utility feature to the unused weapons to make them worth it.

 

- i plan on posting some pictures of my slow progress in the next few weeks

[Triszin]

teh eight are 1120 points

 

 

[Jud Cottrell]

Thanks for posting this Triszin!

Now I’m officially VERY excited!

My force just got tonnes of decreases in points.

27 points for a Crisis suit? Yes please.

I’m gearing up for an Apocalypse game next year, I’m thinking of running a Super Heavy Detachment with the 8 and 2 Stormsurges now.

What do you gents think are the big winners from this?

[Triszin]

Crisis, which means fire warriors.

The points decrease is so great we can almost buy a full squad of fire warriors with pulse rifles, in savings. I'll look at the book and compare rail gun prices

[Focslain]

Have to see how this changes my suit list and I'll try and squeeze in a few bits, er drones to help out.

[Panzer]

Alright so now a tripple flamer Crisis costs only 3p more than a naked Crisis before. I love it lmao.

Even Plasma rifles seem to be viable now. Not as anti-elite killer but as medium infantry killer (Skitarii, Firewarrior and such since it still wounds them on 2+ and is perfect to take away 4+ armour saves).

[Panzer]

For easy comparising:

[Jud Cottrell]

Too right!

Looks like my Missile Pod Commander can do the job he’s been doing on the cheap.

The reduction to the Pulse Driver Cannon alone will pay for more Fire Warriors!

Will probably wait off getting the Riptide till after I get some Broadsides (again what a reduction!)

Well done GW!