Idea for Book Discussions

[Panzer]

 

You can always reference specific reviews for discussions in the discussion thread then. Quoting from other threads is a thing you know. ^^

But surely that further muddies the waters? Doesn’t putting the review back in the discussion thread defeat the object of separating them in the first place?

 

 

Not really. The object of separateing them is to have the reviews separate from the discussions but not necessarily the discussions separate from the reviews.

[DarkChaplain]

My question is: Do we even HAVE so many reviews that they warrant being quarantined from direct discussion? I don't think so. I certainly don't count the usual "read the book, didn't like it because author x is author x" an actual review. People post their impressions as they go along, or when they're done, but rarely is it posted in a concise review format. I think Roomsky is the biggest exception in that regard (which I appreciate), but most people seem to be just fine with shorter impressions that work just fine in the regular discussion threads.

 

Chances are, most new releases, especially non-HH/AD-B books, will go with vacant "review" threads for months, if not forever.

[Brother Tyler]

It is rigid because it is one size fits all.

It's not "one size fits all" though, any more than the current non-system is. The concept creates structure for common discussions, but still allows other discussions. Rather than being "restrictive" it simply organizes things better while allowing for other things. Most of the time, the front page will continue to be dominated by the types of discussions we currently see. Sometimes those might be in the new format, but just as often they will be other discussions created outside of the two types I’ve posited.

 

It fractures, because it literally splits the discussions into two (or more) pieces.

No more than the current non-system, in which any number of topics about the same book might exist. In fact, the concept does the opposite of fracture: it pulls common discussions together where appropriate.

 

It does raise two further questions:

1- is this time well spent? (how often are the indices used, how much effort does it take to maintain and enforce them?)

It's time well spent if it proves to be useful. Since it hasn't been done, we don't know. It is obviously by its very nature far more useful than the current non-system is, though.

 

We don't measure how often the various indices are used. Indices include things like the various tabulae, the BBCode guide, the resource topics, etc. I can tell you that I use them a lot. I know that other members use them. Such an index for Black Library fiction will definitely be useful to those that use it, and especially so for members coming into the forum to look for specific types of discussions about specific books/stories. Invariably, an index system is valuable and relevant only if it is maintained, so a degree of simplicity is required (detailed instructions work in some cases, but probably won’t work well in this instance). So the intent is to figure out a basic system that meets the requirements while remaining simple enough to maintain.

 

2- will it have unintended consequences? You (BT) dismiss the pre-release speculation as noise, I would contend it is the principal activity many hereabouts enjoy - the figure and not the ground - so in reducing noise, you will be obliterating one of the things I and others enjoy.

Everything has unintended consequences. The goal of preliminary discussions like this is to identify as many as possible (understanding that even then, there will still likely be unintended consequences). Some consequences are good, and some are bad. A more relevant question would be “What are the potential consequences of this concept and do any of those concepts run counter to the B&C’s mission statement?” So far, I can’t see any consequences that prevent or hinder constructive discussion about and enjoyment of the hobby. One potential minor drawback would be the sudden appearance of hundreds of new topics, but I’ve already figured out a way to prevent that from happening (i.e., I’m creating topics now and they will be moved into the BL forum at a future date so that they appear after page 1).

 

I don't "dismiss" pre-release speculation as noise at the absolute level - only in the context of when someone wants to read reviews on a book and has to wade through pages and pages of pre-release discussion before they finally get to what they're looking for. And all of those pre-release discussions would still take place and still be around. Nothing would be obliterated. I think that there is a fundamental misunderstanding on your part, thinking that the only future discussions would be those I'm describing. This is not the case, as I have said repeatedly. This merely seeks to add a structure for a basic level of organization while allowing all of the stuff that we are used to in this forum.

 

Caveat: Though I enjoy contrarianism, but that is categorically not what I'm about here. Moderator activity in the name of 'organising' and 'keeping things on very narrow, strict (some might say: rigid) topic' has been seen to entirely kill off discussions on innumerable forum over the years.

 

I don't object to organising, in general. But I am conscious of the fact that overbearing or unintuitive, effort-intensive rules have 'depressing' effects on discussions.

 

Of course, if the forum is to be strictly an archive of reviews and isolated but topic-related opinions, then you may also consider tagging this section of the forum with the word ARCHIVE.

 

We would be epistolaries no more.

This is indicative of your lack of understanding of what I've been describing. All of what you're used to seeing and participating in within this forum would continue to exist. Some of the topics would appear in one of the new types of topics, but the topics would remain. This concept doesn’t in any way “narrow” the discussion that takes place here (i.e., all of the current rules will still apply). All it does is organize things better for more effective/efficient member use. In addition to what we currently have, there would be basic structure to promote discussion of the fiction and allow for reviews (which we currently don't see a lot of, or which quickly spiral off topic). Reviews of books have been part of this forum’s purpose since it was first created.

 

Consider: might it be more congenial and more effective an effort to cultivate the pleasant use of spoiler tags, and tags in general?

We've been banging the drums about effective use of tags and spoiler tags for years, and while we will continue to bang that drum, simply banging it won't solve any problems. That's like thinking that saying something is against the law will result in nobody breaking that law. As a community, we are incompetent at using tags effectively and efficiently. The vast majority of members don't use tags, and the majority of those that do use them don't use them well. While the use of tags and spoiler code are definitely part of the solution, they are a minor piece and don’t come anywhere near to solving problems alone.

 

I like it as it is to be honest. I wouldn’t want a plethora of additional threads.

I use this forum to get opinions on books, mostly new or relatively new releases. I come here rather than good reads or other forums because everyone is a like minded Warhammer obsessive (nut job) whose opinions I value and everyone is pretty mannerly in their discussions.

Im also conscious that over complication sometimes leaves things unnecessarily convoluted and unwieldy.

Yes, additional topics would be created, but most of those would be after page 1 (you would find them through the index and they wouldn't bump up to the first page unless someone posted a reply). Nothing else would change. We're not going to suddenly find non-WH40K hobbyists using this site just because we create a more organized system for reviewing and discussing the books. Nor are we prescribing any formats or contents for reviews. Right now there are 0+ topics about any Black Library book. Under the proposed concept, there will be 2+ topics, with two defined and common, and any additional discussions depending upon the community. The majority of discussions we currently have (not the pre-release ones and not the hypothetical discussions) would qualify as the “free-for-all” type of discussion under the concept, so no substantive change is involved – only one of format. In addition, there would be the review topic (spoiler-free) for those that want to read about a book without spoilers.

 

What do you think is complicated about this idea?

 

I agree with Xizor and can see any review-based non-discussion subforum quickly becoming a ghost town. I've seen it happen on other forums and feels like an unnecessary fragmentation on what is already a relatively low-traffic part of the B&C.

Again, this wouldn't turn the Black Library forum into a "review" forum any more than it is now. All of the relevant discussions that are currently going on would still take place.

 

I don't see any real value in segregating these two types of discussions of books. I strongly suspect we'd simply end up with a handful of active-ish general interest threads and page after page of threads consisting of a title and a post saying 'Anyone else read this?'

This is a valid point. The splitting up into a "Review" and "free-for-all" (names in my head) topics was a result of previous discussion within the community - the ever-painful spoilers discussion.

 

The original concept I had was that there would be a single discussion for each book, and that discussion would be for reviews only. Other discussions about a book would/could be linked (possibly as an index type listing, possibly simply through tags, possibly without any structure at all). The addition of the free-for-all type of discussion was a concession to the inevitable request (because no idea pleases everybody, so there’s always going to be someone that wants something different). We could still adjust back to that concept, but I think that the community would prefer to have a free-for-all type of discussion.

 

As an exercise, look for discussions about the novel Space Marine by Ian Watson. Some people might scroll the pages, which is a pretty lengthy process and will depend upon their ability to tie a topic title (which can sometimes be a bit obscure) to the novel/author. Other people might use the search engine, and hopefully they remember to restrict the search to the Black Library forum. Those knowledgeable about the book might know some character/event/place names and might use those to narrow the search down, but whether or not that is effective will depend upon whether or not those characters/events/places are named in titles/replies (and spelled correctly, either in the search or in the title/reply). If you’re ignorant of the book and want to learn about it, all you probably have are the book title and the author’s name. There will be a lot of trial and error in such a search, and you may not find the topic(s) you’re looking for. Effective use of tags will help here, but the sad truth is that we don’t have effectively used tags; so that’s a good theory, but won’t work in practice.

 

Contrast that with having an index of the fiction and simply having to click on one/both of the links for the Space Marine novel. Additional discussions about the novel would be linked, at the very least by an index*, possibly if the authors use the right tags (or the mods edit them in). So adding this concept of organization will help members to find the topics they’re looking for much more quickly.

 

This exercise works for most of the books from Black Library (and I include Space Marine in that category, even though it was pre-Black Library ), but especially with books that have titles that aren’t obscure. Looking up Space Wolf or Black Legion or Repentia or Titanicus will bring back far more results than the few discussions about those actual novels (assuming discussions even exist).

 

The concept gives starting points for discussions, distinguishing between two basic types of discussions and making it easier to find discussions. Members can always create other discussions, so nothing is lost. At the most basic level, access to the information becomes better (faster/easier/more clear) and discussion is promoted (by giving starting points without limiting other discussions except insofar as they are currently limited by the rules).

 

So the questions are:

• What potential negative consequences do we foresee and how can those be prevented/mitigated?
• What information do we want in the starting posts?
• What types of tags do we want?
• How can the index be organized for best use?

I’ve already identified one potential negative consequence and how I plan to prevent it. That is where a bunch of new topics suddenly appear, pushing other discussions off the first page. I’m preventing that from happening by creating the new topics elsewhere now and moving them to the Black Library forum later so that they will be on page 2 or later. So problem solved (that’s a lot of work for me, but will be completely transparent to you).

 

As far as information goes, I figured I’d include the information that we see on pages like Amazon, Goodreads, and Black Library, including cover art and synopsis. I’m also going to add recommended tags as well as basic instructions (which will be boilerplate). The topics will also link back to the index, and will cross-link to each other. The second post in each topic will probably be an index to related discussions, potentially including external links such as Goodreads and Amazon for those that are inclined to expand the scope of their information search. Related topics might include things like links to omnibus edition discussions, if applicable. After that, replies will be user-based without any prescribed format or content (so pretty much what we have now).

 

No-brainer tags are book/story title, author, and series. We might also include subjects, but the 10-tag limit will quickly be reached, especially in anthologies. Are there any other kinds of tags that I’m missing?

 

The index is the only complicated thing about this. A basic index would simply be alphabetical. Like the tabulae, though, I expect to have multiple structures to the index, so we might also see things like an index by author, by series, by setting (e.g., Horus Heresy), by type (e.g., novel, anthology, omnibus, novella, short story, others?), by subject (and this is where things can get really complicated). At a basic level, we might mirror the organization that the Black Library site uses (assuming we can codify it).

[Panzer]

My question is: Do we even HAVE so many reviews that they warrant being quarantined from direct discussion? I don't think so. I certainly don't count the usual "read the book, didn't like it because author x is author x" an actual review. People post their impressions as they go along, or when they're done, but rarely is it posted in a concise review format. I think Roomsky is the biggest exception in that regard (which I appreciate), but most people seem to be just fine with shorter impressions that work just fine in the regular discussion threads.

 

Chances are, most new releases, especially non-HH/AD-B books, will go with vacant "review" threads for months, if not forever.

 

The fact that reviews are rare is even more reason to have them out of discussion topics so people can find them more easily I'd say. Such topics don't have to be super active to be useful. They could be on page 10+ of this subforum and they would still be useful if people can easily look them up via such an index.

[Xisor]

Understood.

 

The effort seems massive, and I'm doubtful of its efficacy, but I'd be very pleased for my cynicism to be irrefutably dismissed by what actually happens. (And that is likely.)

 

Re: subject tags, there is possibility for spoilers via tags. Important themes/topics of a book can also be spoilers, so accounting for them is a non-trivial challenge.

 

I'm still concerned that splitting the discussions in two will have a momentum-stealing effect - cross referencing is hassle enough that the structural difference may impede people more than *not* using spoiler tags properly does. (Not using spoilers, the discussion continues.)

 

There is also the a final concer: how is the structure to be moderated/enforced? (And how are conflicting posts to be archived in the index?)

 

E.g. What if someone's post contains a review and a discussion? Do they have to be separated manually, or omitted from records, or is that discretionary moderator intervention?

 

---

 

Epistolaries not archivists!

[Brother Tyler]

Actually, looking at this more as I am building things, we might get by with returning to the structure of having a single information/review topic for each book.

 

The effort seems massive...

It is quite a task, yes.

 

What if someone's post contains a review and a discussion? Do they have to be separated manually, or omitted from records, or is that discretionary moderator intervention?

(continuing with the topic opening...)

 

The single default topic for each book would be for spoiler free reviews. The intent is to provide information on the book, including different editions. Members would be able to look at the basic information and read (spoiler free) reviews in order to determine if they want to read the book. If a review includes spoilers, it will be split from the topic to become its own (linked) topic. Replies (to reviews) that contain spoilers would be removed. Meanwhile, members would be free to create other discussions about the story, and those would be linked.

 

So this is the basic structure I'm looking at for each story's discussion:

 

Post 1 - Basic Information

This would be all of the basic data about the story that we see at the Black Library site. Basic information about the overall story would be included (author, synopsis, etc.), and basic information about various editions (limited edition, hardcover, paperback, audio, epub, etc.). For anthologies and omnibuses, we would hopefully list each of the stories and authors. Anthologies and omnibus editions that include stories that are available separately would also link to those topics.

 

In addition, this post would include the boilerplate instructions about reviews, no spoilers, submitting information updates/corrections, etc.

 

There would most likely also be links to Black Library's page(s) about the story.

 

Post 2 - Review Index

Since the reviews (see below) will likely have questions/comments, this post will index to each of the reviews to facilitate searching. The only thing that will be edited into reviews (by the mods/admins) will be a link back to this index post.

 

Post 3 - Search Index

I'm not sure about what to call this. The intent here is that we would provide an index/listing of anything of interest in order to facilitate searches. So characters, places, events, organizations, things, etc. that appear in the story(ies) would be listed so that any search for them would include this discussion in the results. All of this would probably be in spoiler/hidden code so that members that want to be surprised don't have to see it. The reason for this post is the tag limit for discussions. While anthologies (multiple authors) are taken care of by listing each of the stories within, other books might include too many characters, events, etc. to list all of their tags. So this post enables us to list anything that might be searched for within the story. It would be like the glossaries and dramatis personae listings you occasionally see in books, but without the explanations (fewer spoilers that way).

 

Post 4 - Other Discussions

All of the other discussions about the story, including pre-release discussions, would be linked here.

 

Posts 5+ - Reviews and Comments

Members would then post their reviews (using whatever format they desire). Other members can post their questions/comments about the review.

[Brother Tyler]

As we move forward with this, I figured some members would like a graphic depiction of their ratings. Since I don't want to tether anyone to a particular scale (e.g., some might like a scale that goes up to 5 stars, others might like up to 10 stars, while others might like some other maximum number), I only created the basic graphic elements, allowing members to use as many as they want.

Since the skull is one of the basic iconic elements of the site's identity, I've used skulls. I can create other types of images, if there is enough interest.

White skull (these are the "good" ones)

[img=http://bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_6416/gallery_26_6416_1205.gif]

White/red skull (these are "1/2" ratings)

[img=http://bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_6416/gallery_26_6416_1442.gif]

Red skull (these are the "bad" ones)

[img=http://bolterandchainsword.com/uploads/gallery/album_6416/gallery_26_6416_1123.gif]

All you have to do is combine any number of white skulls, up to 1 white/red skull, and any number of red skulls to create the graphic depiction of your rating.

For example, a 4/5 rating, an 8.5/10 rating, and a 1.5/3 rating: