Bridging the gap

[Captain Idaho]

I thought I'd make a topic to create a sort of common ground for us Fraters of the B&C. There have been divisions lately and it's largely caused by some people liking a new product line and others being upset by it.

 

This isn't about who is right or wrong or what we don't like but rather what GW could do to make YOU happy with the whole situation. Or what you think GW should do to make your friends/others happy if you've got something inspiring to suggest.

 

Rules of the thread - positivity. No having a go at Primaris or GW please.

 

An edit to clarify the topic - this is about bridging the gap, the divide, between players who feel Classic Marines are being phased out and are unhappy about it but also from a newer/Primaris fan perspective what can be done to bring a bit of harmony to the product lines.

 

***

 

So here's my ideas that would make me very happy about Space Marines again, in no particular order. Any or all is good:

 

1) Release a MK9 Classic Marine line that's all new.

 

2) Breachers and Destroyers. Again.

 

3) Progress the background that has the Primaris being the traditional Chapters and the Imperium producing Classic Marines as Legions who are more "massed produced".

[Interrogator Stobz]

Upgrade all old PA marines with 2A, 2W and make bolters either assault 2 or range 30”.

Add 1W, 1T and 1A to all TDA marines. Make SBs assault 4.

Make tanks able to leave CC even over infantry etc( non-tanks) no penalty, can be locked by MC and Dreads etc.

Remove-1 to hit for Heavy weapons on vehicles.

Don’t make them cheaper

[Captain Idaho]

I know it sounds a bit odd, but I'd like GW to also just release all the current range as Primaris so I can just count as with my Classic Marines. Then the problem goes away as my army isn't obsolete as much as just older models.

 

Which I'm guessing won't happen but still.

[Kallas]

I know it sounds a bit odd, but I'd like GW to also just release all the current range as Primaris so I can just count as with my Classic Marines. Then the problem goes away as my army isn't obsolete as much as just older models.

 

Which I'm guessing won't happen but still.

Honestly, this would do a lot for me too. Just give me rules for my Marines that aren't deliberately trash so they can sell Primaris, then I can choose to ignore or engage with the new models at my own pace.

[Marshal Rohr]

Revisions to the lore:

-have Guilliman himself reform the space marines into larger fighting forces. Not Legion sized, but independent ‘regiments’ of the same ‘Chapter’ we have now. For instance, you could collect a chapter of the Ultramarines but it isn’t the Primus chapter led by Marneus Calgar. Do away with 6x2x2 company organization and have marines organized into modular strike forces that better relflect the way players build armies. I understand a battle company is supposed to be a modular strike force, but the current organization is dated. ‘Companies’ become collections of strike forces led by lieutenants under a single captain and each company is of varying strength depending on the predilections of the chapters combat doctrines and culture.

-retroactively introduce phases of Primaris and their wargear over the millennia with the gathering storm being the first time they were fielded en masse

-change the way space marine fleets operate by integrating dedicated super-heavy capital class warships that can deploy forces and fight in a battle line

-have marine vehicles be crewed by augmented chapter serfs

-bring back lion el jonson as a foil to guilliman ruling a swath of the Imperium nihilus

-bring back leman Russ as a rogue faction of the Imperium who has the sole focus of defeating chaos

-make the grey knights a nomadic order of demon slayers that can establish commanderies in chapters or travel the Imperium hunting the daemon

-have Guilliman reform the departmento munitorum into expeditionary and garrison branches with scions becoming a widespread elite corps of expeditionary regiments with their own centralized organization

-reintroduce Abaddon as the Sauron of the setting ruling an empire in realspace that is constantly encroaching on the Imperium with the front lines at the doorsteps to Terra (but not too close)

-reintroduce ghazghkul as the leader of a massive ork empire and create a race of primeorks that are more armored and skilled than normal orks as his personal legions

-have the tau become a true syncretist faction that incorporates humans and Xenos into its empire not as second class citizens to be sterilized

 

 

Changes to the rules

-more wargear for Primaris

-more unit options for all factions that can become catch all to create your own flavored fighting force the way the Legion list is

 

Changes to the models

-make converting and kitbashing king again

-release a box set for each armor mark and an updated indomitus kit

-bring back treads

-plastic guard regiments

[Interrogator Stobz]

I know it sounds a bit odd, but I'd like GW to also just release all the current range as Primaris so I can just count as with my Classic Marines. Then the problem goes away as my army isn't obsolete as much as just older models.

 

Which I'm guessing won't happen but still.

Same here, hence my wishlist.

 

:D

[Tyriks]

I want them to start killing characters. Major characters not without suitable build up, but the story is absurd when no one dies, or no one important. If they want characters to be so important to the story, at least make it feel like they have something to lose.

[Tyriks]

I also think it's crazy they don't make a multipart HQ kit for every faction like the old SM Commander. Slap bits in there to make it multiple options (i.e. Narthecium, psychic hood, iron halo, crozius for marines, plus weapons and some aesthetic choices; for Necrons have it able to be lord/overlord/cryptek). No one wants 3 of the same model on the table. It's jarring. Even with head swaps or what have you.

[Canadian_F_H]

I want them to start killing characters. Major characters not without suitable build up, but the story is absurd when no one dies, or no one important. If they want characters to be so important to the story, at least make it feel like they have something to lose.

They definitly used to do this from time to time.

 

They killed off captain tyco of the blood angels during the 3rd war for armageddon campaign back in the day.

[Tyriks]

Yeah, and he still has a model and rules so it's not like it cost them anything.

[Bryan Blaire]

I know it sounds a bit odd, but I'd like GW to also just release all the current range as Primaris so I can just count as with my Classic Marines. Then the problem goes away as my army isn't obsolete as much as just older models.

Which I'm guessing won't happen but still.

Can't you "counts as" your Marines as Primaris right now anyway? You won't get to use the whole line, but then many people say that a lot of things you won't use (like standard Assault Marines) aren't competitive anyway, so you can probably afford to pop that second bolt pistol or plasma pistol on them for Inceptors - you don't need as many anyway.

 

3) Progress the background that has the Primaris being the traditional Chapters and the Imperium producing Classic Marines as Legions who are more "massed produced".

Sounds somewhat like my idea of "Start mass producing some of the Marine organs and begin implanting them in Scions, give them simple power armor, and then make the Marines the true elites" idea I floated back before 8th was released.

 

------------------

 

I can definitely roll with 3 above.

 

What would make me happy about Marines/Primaris that GW could do?

 

Make Primaris more poseable and introduce more variants of the basic Intercessor, Reiver, and Gravis breastplates - heck, the original multi-part 3rd Edition Marine kit had at least three (I think it was actually four or five) breastplate variants for the Mk7 torso. They've already proven that the Primaris have these, because there are at least two variant aquilas on Lieutenants right now. I'd also like to see some weapon furniture/body iconography variants and some additional heavy weapons.

 

And I'd also like GW to have Guilliman realize that the more tactically flexible load outs and structures he learned from the Red Marked are more appropriate than ever with the Primaris and give us some better squad rules for the game with it - enough with the Legion-esque junk, this is M41/42, not the Crusade/Heresy. I'd agree with Idaho's proposal in 3 and have Guilliman reverse the set up between the classic Astartes and the Primaris Astartes - want a gun line of 10-20 bolt weapons, that's what classic Marines do; need the tactical load out with two "special" or heavy weapons (or the classic one of each), bring the Primaris.

 

I'm really not fussy about GW's fluff, I rarely deal with it too closely anyway, and has been demonstrated on this board, there are definitely different ways to "improve" the official fluff anyway to more closely match your own views/wants/needs for 40K anyway.

[Prot]

I think I see the gap differently than the majority of people. I don’t see a gap between Primaris and Classic marines. I see a gap between scouts, and the rest of the troops. I see troops as a tax and then a big divide that segregates the troops and then the rest of the points are carefully min maxed in potent units from Forgeworld or Knights or Shield Captains, etc.

 

That is the big gap to me. I desire a Codex Astartes that makes me want to take Tacticals and Intercessors in equal measure. I want my specialist Tacticals and my survivable, anti infantry Intercessors to be ‘automatic’ choices.

 

After we fix that giant elephant in the room I want to fix the second one: there are extremely few difficult choices in the codex. When I make a list there are a few units I concentrate on and the rest doesn’t compete.

 

What I am saying is (for me at least) the fix will come from bringing relevance to all these units. It’s not a classic vs Primaris issue to me.

 

I always joke with myself that as much as I hate painting Scouts I really should do my best job on them as they are the only unit that is an auto take in all of my lists.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Make Tactical Marines better than now without changing the points and they will be taken more, instead of as a tax

Simplicity itself.

There used to be a saying “ The Marine is the weapon”.

Now they are an inconvenience at best.

 

So much fail or..... so much potential

[kombatwombat]

Bridging the gap is simple enough to do, but it can’t happen because the whole point of Primaris Marines was to create a gap. The gap forces - or at least heavily encourages - old players to buy new models for their existing (massive) Marine armies. They are a marketing exercise, and you don’t just pack up a marketing exercise you’ve doubled down on just to give some old grognards the warm and fuzzies.

 

To bridge the gap you have to give OldMarines decent rules that play how you expect Marines to based on the fluff, and aren’t outshone by their Primaris brethren. The best way would be to say ‘the future is now, Rubicon process for everybody, all Marines are now Primaris’, let Primaris use any Transport and give every non-Primaris unit +1 W/A and AP-1 on all bolt weaponry, chainswords and combat knives. Old grognards get to keep playing with their toys they spent years painting, GW gets to keep printing exciting new units like Aggressors and Inceptors, and nobody feels left behind.

 

A less elegant solution but one that I’m hoping might one day come true is for there to be a Primaris version of every OldMarine kit, so that people like me can use our beloved old models as counts-as Primaris and keep getting some rules update love from GW. This one gets really dicey though when you have to start counting Terminators as Aggressors and Land Raiders as Repulsors.

 

What’s actually likely to happen unfortunately is that GW will keep introducing more Primaris kits that are just different enough from OldMarines to make counts-as impractical, then keep making the newer stuff more powerful/getting more rules updates while OldMarines go the Index route. You’ll always be able to technically play with your OldMarines, but you’ll be doing so with one hand tied behind your back using Index-style rules to encourage you to buy the New Shiney.

 

I’m short, to bridge the gap GW just has to sacrifice some sales drive for goodwill from old customers, but it’s fiscally irresponsible for them to do.

[Lexington]

Drop the Gathering Storm/Dark Imperium junk, and just introduce Primaris as a new set of Marine armor/equipment. Super-size the old Marine line, giving them compatibility with the ‘Primaris’ pattern armor set. No, Guilliman didn’t wake up, that was just a joke, you silly thing - everything’s back to the tension of the setting ready to explode, rather than the tedium of the aftermath.

[Interrogator Stobz]

A lot of ‘grognards’ have a lot of money. Whilst I’m sure GWs marketing team is sure they are making more monies from the new range, they’re not getting my $2-3k per year anymore.

 

But that is ot.

 

I’d love to spend my money on an even bigger collection of space marines,

GW just need to make it not a waste of my money.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I find an issue with reintroducing a bunch of new units is that the SM codex is already massive. I feel like Primaris, as much as they are hated, is an attempt to streamline the codex.

 

For example Tactics vs Intercessors.

 

Tactical have a special / heavy weapon choice that has 4 /6 weapon choices. The Sergeant has 17 choices.

 

Intercessors have 3 weapons for the whole unit, plus grenade launcher. The Sergeant has power sword or not option.

 

Now personally I like options, and I love my troop choice to all have chainsword. However hopefully you can see where the tactical are a little bloated. There are units I just don't see people play such as centurions. Overall I'm on the fence, I can see both sides of the argument but neither side is wrong or right. Maybe a codex Primaris would be better than a codex SM+Primaris.

[Kinstryfe]

I think more now than ever the humble Tactical Squad needs to be a bit more elite than it is. A Primaris is chucked into his armour and sent into battle as an Intercessor, while Astartes Classic™ is trained as a Scout, then a Heavy Weapon Specialist, then a Combat Specialist, then a Speeder Crew, then Biker, and so on and so on. They should be appropriately flexible and l33t by the time they're hitting the table. They should come standard with Chainswords (seriously look at the Mk3 kit, they just hang there, it's a no brainer), and probably have some benefits to their shooting over other squads as well. They should be good, and as flexible as their training implies. Do that and suddenly there's a place in the codex and a reason for both styles of Astartes, and that would be a very good thing.

[Soldier of Dorn]

Personally, I'd rather enjoy more multipose plastic kits. As beautifully detailed and posed as some of the modern kits such as the Primaris Intercessors and Plague Marines are, the lack of choice in body-leg combinations and positions irks me to a degree that outweighs any admiration of the sculpts themselves. They're nice models, to be sure, but from what little I've dealt with them I would not enjoy building more than a squad or two of each -- it's just not an interesting way to design a kit, to me. While arms are still alterable, the immobile leg positions place far too many limitations on what arm positions look good when considering them, and I'd much rather build a Tactical Squad and have this greater agency in how I build the model. To be sure, it's not an impossible task to take a saw to a pair of legs and make them work for another torso, but for something that will be the workhorse of the army, to your average hobbyist it's likely more trouble than it's worth.

 

I'm not so bothered by HQs in this single-pose multipart format, at least inherently so -- GW has shown to us time and time that boy, do they know how to make underwhelming models sometimes -- since as much as I like the concept of a full complement of options on a HQ kit, the single pose does allow for some more dynamic posing and visual interest, if utilized well, and it's much easier to justify the effort of converting a single-pose model if it is a character. But for units that are not characters they should not be keyed into a particular positioning -- not at all.

 

In a similar vein, like so many people, I want to see a greater variety of wargear options for new models and rules. I know that this isn't going to happen, but I want to see a 40k that encourages and supports the creativity of the kitbasher/convertor again in an official setting. The way things are -- yes, you have custom Land Raider/character/Looted Wagon rules across both the prior chapter approved and the forthcoming edition, but as Open Play only rules I doubt very strongly that any of those will catch on -- they're not going to change how those people who already convert, because they wouldn't have cared anyways, and for the rest of the playerbase the prohibition against using them in pointed games will (I suspect) be enough from them getting into it, and that's a shame: people should feel free to do what they like with their models. Understanding, of course, that list-building rules still have to be in place to some degree -- otherwise you no longer have a game -- there should be as much modeling leeway baked into the rules to actively support creativity. I don't want to look up in years, and discover that 40k has turned into Warmachine (so far as unit options are concerned.)

 

That's my initial thoughts on the matter, at any rate. I'll probably be mulling this over and see if any other ideas percolate into being.

[sairence]

I want them to start killing characters. Major characters not without suitable build up, but the story is absurd when no one dies, or no one important. If they want characters to be so important to the story, at least make it feel like they have something to lose.

We lost Lord Castellan Creed and Colour Sergeant Kell on Cadia. For the Guard/Cadians, that was an important character duo.

[MARK0SIAN]

I’d like them to focus on making sure marines have an identifiable playstyle, or at least the ability to create one. Right now they feel like they’re in a bit of a no-mans land. Are they meant to be a gun line army? A close range assault force? A precision Strike force? They don’t really feel like any of those right now.

 

GW have done a good job with most of the armies making sure they’ve got a definite feel/playstyle (Deathguard, orks, AM, Custodes etc) but marines feel like they’re lagging a bit in this regard.

 

It might be that the marine codex is too bloated or there are too many chapters to consider or they want to maintain some flexibility for the players or even that they just want to maintain the ‘jack of all trades, master of none’ approach, but I feel that giving Marines more of an identifiable niche on the table will help a lot.

 

As for non-marine units, a new range of plastic AM would be great, as well as fixing the mess they’ve made of adding assassins, sisters of silence etc to your army :)

[Captain Idaho]

I totally agree with the idea that Marines need to be more identifiable as an army playstyle.

 

And also to provide a reason to take basic bolter dudes I also came up with these rules:

 

1) Transhuman Physiology: The superhuman resilience of Space Marines is a marvel of technological engineering and only multiplied by the addition of power armour. Any model with the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes Keywords ignores the first point of Armour Penetration.

 

In addition, these models also gain an additional attack in close combat when directing attacks solely at models with a single wound and without the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes Keywords.

 

 

2) Astartes class weapons: Space Marines often use weapons of the same type as other forces but on a larger scale and as such a Space Marine bolter is more powerful than a bolter utilised by a Commissar of the Astra Millitarum or even the Chambers Militant of the Eccesleiarcy themselves.

 

When any model with the Adeptus Astartes or Heretic Astartes Keywords fires a bolter those weapons receive an additional +1 Strength and point of Armour Penetration when firing at targets within half range. In addition, these models also receive an additional +1 Strength in close combat when using a Chainsword.

 

***

 

It goes without saying I think more options are good and the lack of variance in models (even poses) is a terrible step backwards for GW.

 

I miss the days when this forum used to discuss unit builds for Captains and Chapter Masters. Nowadays it's "What colour did you paint your Gravis Captain?"

[Captain Idaho]

Gothic weirdness! That seems to be declining from the hobby lately!

 

Space Marine Primaris feel like they were produced by Tau.

[Interrogator Stobz]

A “Precision Strike Force”.

Where the basic marines are transported into battle in basic but resilient vehicles, where they shoot decent special weapons at key targets and charge any type of target and batter them with fists and cull them with swords. Flexible, Resilient, and Tactical.

Where the mighty Astartes are indeed Mighty. :D

 

The so called bloat in the marine dex is not the basic marine options, it’s all the support units.

That’s why Primaris don’t feel bloated yet, they don’t have the heaps of options that some people want. Once they get them they’ll feel this so called bloated too.

 

And to some of us Grognards they are the new bloat.

 

I’d love to see a streamlined dex, one that favours the basic Marine. And more love from GW to other parts of the Imperium. (and maybe the dirty xenos too).

[MARK0SIAN]

A “Precision Strike Force”.

Where the basic marines are transported into battle in basic but resilient vehicles, where they shoot decent special weapons at key targets and charge any type of target and batter them with fists and cull them with swords. Flexible, Resilient, and Tactical.

Where the mighty Astartes are indeed Mighty. :D

Pretty much yeah :) we are just a long way from that at the moment :)