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Pre-CA thoughts


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17 replies to this topic

#1
newdigitalGK

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so with the amount of points to be saved across the board I'm trying to think ahead of what i'll be adding adjusting to my GK lists. Starting off with what's GK's current weaknesses 1: lack of high str weapons with Decent AP value. 2: survive-ability. 

 

so for the lack of high str value weapons we honestly do have access to them, the problem is that generally they were on units that were more cost ineffective then other units. IE on a dreadnaught, we have been scraping for points so much that we couldn't afford weapon platforms such as a dreadnought or landraider or even our fliers. I think if dreadnaughts along with the confirmed units, got a pts decrease that could address one of our current massive weakness. couple that with the possible change to our mini-smite would really set GK's to move up in the world. 

 

I also expect the psycannon and incinerator to go down in points (expect/hope same thing at this point) while the psilincer remains the same. 

 

Overall the points decrease will address our other main weakness of survive-ability in that we will be able to put more bodies on the table. Which honestly is what's needed by power-armor armies in general. It's generally not that other armies can live longer on an individual model it's that they can out number them in a way that made any other changes to survive-ability have to reach such a level of ridiculousness it would probably hurt the game overall rather then help. 



#2
Diagramdude

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According to the rumors GK termis are going down to 26 pts base. And the GK stormbolter may or may not go to zero. So GK terminators may go down to either 26 or 28. 5 GK termis for 130 or 140 points may be just efficient enough especially as a troop slot.

Also if true that GK get full smite back it will change the nature of how GK address high toughness targets.

Crowe at 75 or 80 and draigo at 200 probably become auto includes, at least for mono GK

http://bloodofkitten...ak-compilation/

 

Edit: Land Raider Crusaders may be 264 points including weapons. GK get good mileage out of Crusaders with Psybolt Ammo taking it up to S5 AP -1 plus throwing around Land Raiders with Gate. Eight GK terminators at 28 pts each plus the Crusader would be 488 pts. 


Edited by Diagramdude, 04 December 2018 - 08:19 AM.


#3
Danarc

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Crowe is still useless, unfortunately. It could be auto include only in match against orks probably. 5 PAGK make work better than Crowe, and with the points reduction every other HQ is still better than him. 



#4
Diagramdude

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At 75 points he could potentially be one of the cheapest HQs to fill a battalion 



#5
Danarc

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BroChamp should cost less. 



#6
newdigitalGK

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I would have to agree with Danarc, Crowe just doesn't provide enough bonus to bring him when most other HQ's do more and hopefully won't be as over costed. Crowe is great Vs trash but we have a few good ways to deal with trash especially if the incinerator drops in pts and I wonder what purifiers will look like point wise. 



#7
sfPanzer

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Crowe is just redundant in a Codex where every single modle has at least a Stormbolter. Now if he could stand in the middle of 30 Orks and grind them down it would be a different matter but once he's in melee and doesn't decimate the enemy unit he's as likely to die like any other Marine HQ.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#8
Chronos Darkhelmet

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Sooooo, since I just had some spare time to employ I went for guessing what the new pt costs for GK would be if the same proportion between Vanilla Termies and ours (23/26 rumored) is maintained for other units too. Here come the results (just final pts of the naked model):

- Bro-Cap at 118
- GMiNDK at 150
- PAGK at 15
- TAGK at 26 (as rumored)
- Bro Ancient at 101
- Pally at 42
- Purifier at 21
- Dread at 69
- Ven Dread at 87
- Interceptor at 18
- NDK at 103

I stopped here not recalling any other current costs. Take into account that with such proportions I also got Draigo at 190 from 240, with the rumored decrement being 200, so I could have got wrong by ~1 pt on PAGKs and ~10 on GMiNDKs at most, to say ;)

Edited by Chronos Darkhelmet, 05 December 2018 - 06:03 PM.


#9
BetterOffShred

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Just got my Lads in silver back out, I'm going to order up the CA when it drops so I can see if it's worth while.   I haven't played the lads since 5th and everything I've read indicated they are somewhat "Hard Mode" Now..    

 

I agree with a lot of the posts that indicate that simply changing the point values makes them feel less "Elitey" which was the whole point to begin with.   That being said, I'll roll an entire edition with what I have just because I have always loved them so much.  

 

Looking forward to CA

 

-Brett


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#10
Biscuittzz

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Sooooo, since I just had some spare time to employ I went for guessing what the new pt costs for GK would be if the same proportion between Vanilla Termies and ours (23/26 rumored) is maintained for other units too. Here come the results (just final pts of the naked model):

- Bro-Cap at 118
- GMiNDK at 150
- PAGK at 15
- TAGK at 26 (as rumored)
- Bro Ancient at 101
- Pally at 42
- Purifier at 21
- Dread at 69
- Ven Dread at 87
- Interceptor at 18
- NDK at 103

I stopped here not recalling any other current costs. Take into account that with such proportions I also got Draigo at 190 from 240, with the rumored decrement being 200, so I could have got wrong by ~1 pt on PAGKs and ~10 on GMiNDKs at most, to say msn-wink.gif

 

Looks promising but remember that more than likely the same percentage decrease won't be seen across the entirety of the range.

 

For example I'm pretty sure I saw PAGK already rumoured at 16/17 ppm over in the N&R thread somewhere. Whether true or not is to be seen but at least with what you've done it gives us some sort of ball park to think about.

 

I will happily get behind TAGK at 26 please. teehee.gif



#11
Diagramdude

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I heard a rumor GK stormbolter may go to 0 pts. Effectively a 2pt reduction for most GK.



#12
Chronos Darkhelmet

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Sooooo, since I just had some spare time to employ I went for guessing what the new pt costs for GK would be if the same proportion between Vanilla Termies and ours (23/26 rumored) is maintained for other units too. Here come the results (just final pts of the naked model):

- Bro-Cap at 118
- GMiNDK at 150
- PAGK at 15
- TAGK at 26 (as rumored)
- Bro Ancient at 101
- Pally at 42
- Purifier at 21
- Dread at 69
- Ven Dread at 87
- Interceptor at 18
- NDK at 103

I stopped here not recalling any other current costs. Take into account that with such proportions I also got Draigo at 190 from 240, with the rumored decrement being 200, so I could have got wrong by ~1 pt on PAGKs and ~10 on GMiNDKs at most, to say msn-wink.gif


Looks promising but remember that more than likely the same percentage decrease won't be seen across the entirety of the range.

For example I'm pretty sure I saw PAGK already rumoured at 16/17 ppm over in the N&R thread somewhere. Whether true or not is to be seen but at least with what you've done it gives us some sort of ball park to think about.

I will happily get behind TAGK at 26 please. teehee.gif

Indeed, I wasn't even planning to publish my calculations until they gave me a result in line with what was being rumored for a special character (!!!), which is a category of models usually priced apart from the rest of the army :P

But it is actually better to give ranges of plausible values rather than single numbers, so I retype here my guesses based on the "Draigo uncertainty":

- Bro-Cap at 118-125
- GMiNDK at 150-159
- PAGK at 15-16
- TAGK at 26-28
- Bro Ancient at 101-107
- Pally at 42-44
- Purifier at 21-22
- Dread at 69-73
- Ven Dread at 87-92
- Interceptor at 18-19
- NDK at 103-109

#13
Danarc

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With 0 points stormbolters no one will take special weapons unless huge changes.

#14
Captain Coolpants

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I used to love incinerators. Templates + deepstriking and being really cheap was amazingly fun and really good, but not overpowered.

Now they're just waaaay too expensive. So if SB are free. Then I absolutely agree, they (along with psycannons) will NEVER be used again. Unless you're going fluffy of course.

#15
Capt. Mytre

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They need rules changes game wide for flamers. No one takes them because they are too hard to get into range, unless they are big torrent flamers.

 

As for psilencers and psycannons, mathematically psilencers are better against every target type. They cannot be balanced because no matter the point cost, one will always be the better choice against all targets as they currently do the exact same thing, just in different ways, and therefore compete for the same role. While giving psycannons 2 dmg would put GK in a better position, it would also remove any reason to use psilencers.

 

Something like Assault 24" 6 x S4 AP -2 Dmg 1 (No invuln saves) for psilencers, and Assault 24" 2 x S8 AP -4 Dmg D6 for psycannons would give them distinct roles within the game.

 

Want to know a real kicker? Psycannons are worse than assault cannons against every target type as well - it literally has no purpose in the game. +1 Str -2 shots makes it worse against everything lol.


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#16
HighMarshalAmp

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As for psilencers and psycannons, mathematically psilencers are better against every target type. They cannot be balanced because no matter the point cost, one will always be the better choice against all targets as they currently do the exact same thing, just in different ways, and therefore compete for the same role. While giving psycannons 2 dmg would put GK in a better position, it would also remove any reason to use psilencers.

I'd really like to see your numbers on this - 'cause mine look totally different.

 

Against MEQs, the PC does 0,22 unsaved wounds per attack, the PS 0,11. That becomes 0,88 for the PC vs 0,66 for the PS in total. The PC also does more wounds per point, but that's such a marginal difference it's safe to say they cause the same number of wounds per point.

 

Against GEQs, it's 0,46/ 1,85 for the PC vs 0,30/ 1,78 for the PS.

Against a T5 Sv2+ statline, it's PC 0,15/ 0,59, PS 0,04/ 0,22.

 

So while never by a lot, the Psycannon is superior in every way to the Psilencer, for which even the higher number of attacks does nothing in the end.

 

As for Assault cannon vs Psycannon, is there even a GK unit that can decide between those two?

 

Edit: but I agree that PC and PS are too close together. The Psilencer should be the superior horde-removal weapon while the Psycannon should do what it does against heavy armor a little better or the Silencer a little worse.


Edited by HighMarshalAmp, 07 December 2018 - 05:08 PM.

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#17
Capt. Mytre

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As for psilencers and psycannons, mathematically psilencers are better against every target type. They cannot be balanced because no matter the point cost, one will always be the better choice against all targets as they currently do the exact same thing, just in different ways, and therefore compete for the same role. While giving psycannons 2 dmg would put GK in a better position, it would also remove any reason to use psilencers.

I'd really like to see your numbers on this - 'cause mine look totally different.

 

Against MEQs, the PC does 0,22 unsaved wounds per attack, the PS 0,11. That becomes 0,88 for the PC vs 0,66 for the PS in total. The PC also does more wounds per point, but that's such a marginal difference it's safe to say they cause the same number of wounds per point.

 

Against GEQs, it's 0,46/ 1,85 for the PC vs 0,30/ 1,78 for the PS.

Against a T5 Sv2+ statline, it's PC 0,15/ 0,59, PS 0,04/ 0,22.

 

So while never by a lot, the Psycannon is superior in every way to the Psilencer, for which even the higher number of attacks does nothing in the end.

 

As for Assault cannon vs Psycannon, is there even a GK unit that can decide between those two?

 

Edit: but I agree that PC and PS are too close together. The Psilencer should be the superior horde-removal weapon while the Psycannon should do what it does against heavy armor a little better or the Silencer a little worse.

 

 

That's because you're not factoring in points cost. Model + weapon, and the psilencer almost always wins.

 

Assault Cannon Vs Psycannon is just a funny thing, but there are vehicles that can equip 2x psycannons where 2x assault cannons would normally go (razors/LR) - and it costs the user 6 more points for an inferior weapon (44 vs 50 IIRC).



#18
HighMarshalAmp

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As for psilencers and psycannons, mathematically psilencers are better against every target type. They cannot be balanced because no matter the point cost, one will always be the better choice against all targets as they currently do the exact same thing, just in different ways, and therefore compete for the same role. While giving psycannons 2 dmg would put GK in a better position, it would also remove any reason to use psilencers.

I'd really like to see your numbers on this - 'cause mine look totally different.

Against MEQs, the PC does 0,22 unsaved wounds per attack, the PS 0,11. That becomes 0,88 for the PC vs 0,66 for the PS in total. The PC also does more wounds per point, but that's such a marginal difference it's safe to say they cause the same number of wounds per point.

Against GEQs, it's 0,46/ 1,85 for the PC vs 0,30/ 1,78 for the PS.
Against a T5 Sv2+ statline, it's PC 0,15/ 0,59, PS 0,04/ 0,22.

So while never by a lot, the Psycannon is superior in every way to the Psilencer, for which even the higher number of attacks does nothing in the end.

As for Assault cannon vs Psycannon, is there even a GK unit that can decide between those two?

Edit: but I agree that PC and PS are too close together. The Psilencer should be the superior horde-removal weapon while the Psycannon should do what it does against heavy armor a little better or the Silencer a little worse.
That's because you're not factoring in points cost. Model + weapon, and the psilencer almost always wins.

Assault Cannon Vs Psycannon is just a funny thing, but there are vehicles that can equip 2x psycannons where 2x assault cannons would normally go (razors/LR) - and it costs the user 6 more points for an inferior weapon (44 vs 50 IIRC).
I am factoring it in - lemme quote myself:
The PC also does more wounds per point, but that's such a marginal difference it's safe to say they cause the same number of wounds per point.

Which shows that the points are well balanced between those two guns. Isn't that a first, GW? biggrin.png

Edit: okay, against GEQs, the Cannon does 0,056 wounds per point but the Psilencer does 0,077. Per point, the Psilencer IS the better crowd control tool after all. Narrow, but it is. That's nice!

But for 11 points, I would personally prefer the higher wound output. 'cause even if I take the Psilencer every time I could take a Psycannon, the points won't total up to another Squad with Psilencer. That's just me though and not quite relevant.

Edited by HighMarshalAmp, 07 December 2018 - 06:29 PM.

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