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An alternative concept for generating Command Points


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16 replies to this topic

#1
kombatwombat

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There's lots of talk on how to fix the issues around CP. An idea I have is a change to the concept of CP generation being tied to the number of units. Instead, I would have it tied to the amount of points invested in a detachment, as follows:

- Patrol/Superheavy Auxiliary/Fortification Network - No benefit
- Battalion - gain 1CP for every 100pts spent on Troops in this detachment
- Brigade - gain 1CP for every 150pts spent on Troops, Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support combined in this detachment
- Vanguard/Spearhead/Outrider/Air Wing - gain 1CP for every 200pts spent on Elites/Heavy Support/Fast Attack/Flyers in this detachment
- Supreme Command Detachment - gain 1CP for every 300pts spent on HQs in this detachment (or none, this detachment is the source of a lot of problems)
- Superheavy Detachment - gain 1CP for every 400pts spent on Lords of War in this detachment
- Auxiliary Detachment - lose 1CP for every 100pts spent in this detachment

I believe this removes the CP battery and allying in issues - there's no cheap way to get CP. It balances CP generation of armies with small cheap units (Guard), armies with big cheap units (Cultists) and armies with big expensive units (Custodes); no matter how you do it, to get 3CP, you need 300pts of Troops. It maintains the status quo of Troops being useful by making them the most efficient way to gain CP. It ups the amount of CP for elite armies starved under the current system. It lets thematic armies like Deathwing, Ravenwing and Iyanden Wraiths have a useable amount of CP without needing to include anti-thematic CP battery units. It lets you include an Assassin or Inquisitor without costing a CP, but more powerful units will still burn CP in an Auxiliary Detachment,

Some examples at 2000pts:

- A Marine army with 500pts in Troops in a Battalion, 500pts in Elites in a Vanguard, 500pts in Heavy Support in a Spearhead and the rest in HQ/Fast Attack nets 3+5+2+2 = 12CP
- A Deathwing army with 1200pts in a Vanguard Detachment and the rest in Heavy Support/HQs nets 3+6 = 9CP
- A Custodes Battalion built around 12 Guardians for 600ish points nets 3+6 = 9CP
- A Guard Brigade with 200pts of HQs and 1800 in other slots nets 3+12 = 15CP

Thoughts?
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#2
Inquisitor Dracos

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I have a simpler idea. One sentence, less than twelve words.

 

  CP can only be used by the Faction that generates them. 

 


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#3
kombatwombat

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Sure, there’s a simple solution that solves a specific problem - allying in the Loyal 32. What I’m shooting for is a more complex solution to a broader problem.
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#4
Morticon

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i REALLY like that Kombatwombat. 

In fact, i may even use it in next years Veteran's tournament. 

As noted by Dracos, his solution, which is really simple, only really deals with allying stuff in- and still keeps armies cheesy.  I love this option. 


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
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There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

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#5
Morticon

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Sorry to fanboi on about this....but, dude, this is incredible.  

I'm going to try work this into our tournament scene and get playtesting.  

 


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#6
kombatwombat

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Cheers Morticon :)

I ran it by one of my regular gaming groups and they’re keen. We’re having a games day this weekend so I’ll report back after that.
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#7
kombatwombat

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I’ll also add that you can use this with Power Level - just divide the points values by 20. (So every 5 PL of Troops in a Battalion, every 10 PL of Elites in a Vanguard etc.)

#8
Morticon

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only recommendation/tweak i can see at the moment is for the battalion and patrol.

I'd consider giving points for the patrol based on troops only- maybe a higher amount (like 200) and then the battalion - maybe giving more points for troops (ie: 1:100, and 1:200 for other stuff) 

 
 


Gamist, cheesy, beardy or broken; If Games Workshop put it in the book I'll gladly play against it, or with it. - Mort
"Use soft words and hard arguments." (Henry George Bohn [1796-1884].)

There is no harm in, on occasion, having disagreements. It's another thing entirely, however, to be a tool in conveying that disagreement.

"OP: The term used by players to describe a combination of yours they are personally unable to beat"

Collection of Battle Reports
Corbulo Tactica

#9
kombatwombat

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Sure, I could add points to Patrol. The reason I didn’t is because I was trying to maintain the current status that a Patrol gives zero. You’re right, if I add points to Patrol it’d be 1:200 for Troops so the Battalion’s better.

#10
toaae

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This is one of the better approaches to CP I've seen suggested in the community.

My favorite community is now open to my favorite army. We live in an enlightened age.

WAAAGH!!! Tortoof, a WiP thread
 (updated: 12/2/18)

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#11
Slasher956

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Only questions I have on this would be the faction specific alterations

- Dark Eldar currently gain 1 CP for every patrol they take, instead of the normal 0.... would you give them the 1 CP per 100 points of troops in the patrol formation?

- Knights (both) currently gain 6 CP for their Superheavy detachments, would they gain CP for ever 200 points spent on LoWs?


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#12
kombatwombat

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Good questions.

Dark Eldar - I agree with your suggestion, give them 1CP per 100pts spent on Troops in a Patrol Detachment - basically the same bonus given to Battalions but in Patrols to allow for their weird army layout.

Knights - With 1CP per every 400pts they end up with 8CP at 200pts, which is probably fair for a Knights army? At every 200 they end up with 13 which is too many given the strengths of their Stratagems, at every 300 they end up at 9, which probably isn’t different enough from the 8 at 400:1 to justify complicating the issue IMO.

#13
Rik Lightstar

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My preferred solutions would be as simple as Dracos' but a little different:

 

1- "Stratagem access is determined by your Warlord, once your Warlord has been determined, you have access to the Stratagems in that Codex."

 

So, YES you can still get a 32 Man Imperial Guard Battery, but no access to their Stratagems, unless it includes your Warlord, in which case you don't get the Stratagems from the Knights/Custodes/Deathwatch books.

 

2- Or the AoS approach, where you only unlock the Traits, Relics and Stratagems from a book if it represents 80% or more of your forces points value (or power level). otherwise you're restricted to generic ones.

 

Rik


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The Codex Astartes: Taking Away The Freedom Of The Astartes To Pigeonhole Themselves, 
And Restricting Them To Supreme Flexibility Since M31
.


#14
sfPanzer

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That's basically what I've proposed before as well already. Make it dependent on the points, not the slots. The game uses points to balance everything so having slots to balance CP is redundant and not practical (as we had to learn the hard way now).

My implementation of such a concept was a bit different and I just didn't bother to open a thread for it since I don't think my idea would change anything. I instead send my idea to GW directly. I suggest you do that as well btw.

 

Anyway thumbs up. thumbsup.gif


Edited by sfPanzer, 06 December 2018 - 01:00 PM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#15
Finkmilkana

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While the basic idea is nice, I’m not sure if the point values work like that. Specifically, since most armies don’t contain more than 300-400 points of troops (unless they have to for CP), battalion detachments become almost useless unless you really spam troops. But on the other hand, brigade detachments cannot really be filled that easily with meaningful stuff for some factions. So with a setup like this soup would possibly become even more prevalent as people pick a battalion of the currently best troop choice and then mix it up with vanguard/spearhead/etc filled with the respective best in slot over all available codices. Currently that is not done because picking one of the specialist detachments costs you quite a few CP (assuming a 3 detachment limit), but with the proposed points (unless you fill a battalion), it will actually give you more CP.
This is mostly an issue with balancing the precise point values though, and not with the underlying idea.
This will sadly still never happen in official rules because “power level”.

Edited by Finkmilkana, 06 December 2018 - 09:23 AM.


#16
kombatwombat

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sfP yeah I’ve seen ‘base CP on points’ bandied about before, my aim was to codify how you might actually do that while keeping an army composition element. I will definitely be emailing it to GW, I just wanted some feedback on the idea first.

Finkmilkana yeah this is a first pass on the exact figures, I’ll review it after I give it a go. It might end up being something like the specialist Detachments going up to 250:1.
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#17
Phubar

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I have a simpler idea. One sentence, less than twelve words.

CP can only be used by the Faction that generates them.


I totally agree with this solution! Simple, effective and realistic.




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