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403 replies to this topic

#1
CrusherJoe

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...is up:

 

https://www.warhamme...omepage-post-1/

 

Dunno what to think about the new AoF. It feels somewhat similar to the old 3E version...sorta? 

 


QUOTE (Lagrath @ Jul 22 2008, 06:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chaos players complaining about goodies in the vanilla codex is hilarious to watch. It's like Bill Gates complaining that the blue-collar worker down the street won 500 dollars in the lottery.
 
"I am not alone," said Celestine. "And your hour is done."
 

#2
Ficinus

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It doesn't state whether the Act of Faith test is on D6 or on 2D6. Hopefully the latter because a 5+ is so unreliable.
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#3
Mekhitar

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Darn, I was really hoping they wouldn’t change the AoF system entirely. A foolish hope, perhaps, but there it was.

(I wonder if ynarri will be getting a similar treatment?)

Actually I have SO many questions about faith points! How and when they accumulate, for example... will we have units that grant faith as they die? I guess that goes back into speculation....

Penitent engines become khorne zerkers! Sadly I will miss Desperate for Redemption proccing immediately. Now the enemy gallant can interrupt and stomp me, it looks like. :P

Edited by Mekhitar, 06 December 2018 - 04:25 PM.

Do you hear the people sing?


#4
CrusherJoe

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I'm guessing 1d6, mainly because Ebon Chalice is +1 to Test of Faith roll across the board. With Imagifiers and Hospitalers buffing that roll...I can easily see it being 1d6.


Also, my pen engines may actually see the light of day now...


QUOTE (Lagrath @ Jul 22 2008, 06:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chaos players complaining about goodies in the vanilla codex is hilarious to watch. It's like Bill Gates complaining that the blue-collar worker down the street won 500 dollars in the lottery.
 
"I am not alone," said Celestine. "And your hour is done."
 

#5
Mainman_99

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My reflections:

Seems like Sororitas and the Ministorum "swapped places". Instead of having Adeptus Ministorum with Ad. Sororitas as main military force we have Ad. Sororitas with Ministorum Support. Hopefully this won't interfere with the new AoF rules.

 

AoF: 1 or 2 dice? Guess its 1 (because of "With a Devotion Value of 5, you’d need to roll a 5 or over")

 

AoF: "To cast one, you spend a Faith Point..." To cast? Sounds rather heretical to me! Would prefer "manifest" or something like that


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#6
Beams

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We need to know more on AoF to judge it, but if it's only +1 point per 10 models, that seems much more limited in amount than previously, especially since the old one proc'd as a 2+ or a 4+.

#7
Focslain

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It doesn't state whether the Act of Faith test is on D6 or on 2D6. Hopefully the latter because a 5+ is so unreliable.

 

Well if you take the army as Ebon Chalice you get +1, so that drops to a 4+ and it says that Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus can modify as well. So maybe a cumulative 3+ to get an act to pop? 

 

Plus at a faith point per 10 models that is going to be a semi deep pool. 


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A challenge is a challenge till it is beaten, then it is a victory.
The greater the challenge the greater the victory, so I challenge the impossible.

 

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#8
CrusherJoe

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There may also be a base number of Faith Points -- as you said, we need more info.


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QUOTE (Lagrath @ Jul 22 2008, 06:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chaos players complaining about goodies in the vanilla codex is hilarious to watch. It's like Bill Gates complaining that the blue-collar worker down the street won 500 dollars in the lottery.
 
"I am not alone," said Celestine. "And your hour is done."
 

#9
Aqui

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I'm really glad I managed to get a couple of Simulacrums now...

There may also be a base number of Faith Points -- as you said, we need more info.


I can't imagine a typical sisters army only getting a number of points *just* from how many ten girl squads we have. That would be stupid.

Once, a Novice Cantus came to me, troubled and uncertain. A slip of a girl, only a few strides down the eternal path leading her to the Golden Throne. She asked me a question. She asked me how we can ever truly understand what faith is. I told her that there is no coin to measure what we feel in our hearts. There are no scales upon which we might weigh the faith of one woman against another. There is only duty and blood. There are only deeds and words. There is only the service to the God-Emperor, and the price that demands from each Sister can only be known by Him. But know that whatever fears must be faced, whatever hardships endured, that price is forever worth its full cost.
- Sister Katherine Elysius,
Daughter of the Emperor (later Imperial Saint Katherine)


#10
ERJAK

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Whelp, I already hate the new AoF system. Scale up? I only run 65 infanty. That's only 6 goddam AoFs all game. Not to mention the fact that it's suddenly an actually very difficult roll, so you'll have games where you'll blow the entire handful of points on a single AoF. Stupid. Both convictions are worthless compared to bloody rose even. Why would +1 to AoFs matter when you only get like half of one every 10 games. And the 6+ FNP traits are universally underwhelming. 

 

Blessed bolts makes just about every other weapon in the army irrelevant. Bit of a mixed blessing tbh, but an objectively incredible stratagem. If vessel of the Emperors will wasn't 3 CP and AoFs weren't rationed out like bread in a Soviet winter, that would be the most amazing stratagem ANY army has.

 

Warlord traits and relic were boring. Standard stuff and Celestine's aura.

 

(I wrote this as I was reading to keep record of my initial, entirely emotional, response.)


Edited by ERJAK, 06 December 2018 - 04:47 PM.


#11
Mekhitar

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I, too, would like to know if these faith points are generated at the start of the game, or accumulate over the course of it. Do they carry over from turn to turn? I need more info!

Also I need a way to keep track of both faith points and command points and not confuse them. :P yay bookkeeping!

Do you hear the people sing?


#12
ERJAK

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It doesn't state whether the Act of Faith test is on D6 or on 2D6. Hopefully the latter because a 5+ is so unreliable.

 

Well if you take the army as Ebon Chalice you get +1, so that drops to a 4+ and it says that Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus can modify as well. So maybe a cumulative 3+ to get an act to pop? 

 

Plus at a faith point per 10 models that is going to be a semi deep pool. 

 

Not really. Even running 100 models of Infantry you only get 10. That's how many you would get from just the army+ Celestine before, let alone Martyrdom and imagifiers. Which is actually terrible because they dramatically increased the chance you fail them. You could blow 3-5 points just trying to fight twice.

 

Oh my god I didn't even notice that it might be a D6 roll. That'd be ABYSMAL. It wouldn't even be worth remembering them at that point. Trying to buff the roll with Dialogus and Imagifiers wouldn't work any better than trying to get an extra AoF from an imagifier. They may well have taken our best rule and eliminated it outright.

 

There might be more ways to get AoFs, but there's no way the +1 for 10 models isn't a one time deal per game. Unless it's a D6 roll, at which point it better be per turn. You'll need every single point just to get a single AoF off.


Edited by ERJAK, 06 December 2018 - 04:57 PM.


#13
GodwynDi

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AoF occurring during different phases makes them more reactive, but I'll miss the strategic element of the current faith phase

#14
Doof

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I wonder if they will split out banners between the different models / types. As modeled there are actually 3 types of banners,  but in 8th it's been just the one.



#15
robofish7591

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Well, it looks like GW decided to keep with the trend of changing the way acts of faith works every codex tongue.png

 

I think that the new system isn't going to be too bad.  One point per 10 models could end up being too few, especially after getting used to using multiple per turn with the current system.  I will need to see what all our acts of faith are before passing judgement.  If they do end up being too few, maybe we need some units to be marked as being "faithful" so that they provide extra faith points, like in codex witch hunters.

 

I actually think that I will like the Ebon Chalice conviction, especially if there are other ways of buffing the roll.  I knew it was going to happen, but I do wish that Valorous Heart got something in addition to the 6+ fnp, as it is such a boring rule.

 

The stratagems seem pretty good, blessed bolts is absolutely brutal.  Hopefully each of the holy trinity will have an equally powerful stratagem, or flamers will be even worse off when compared to storm bolters.  Vessel of the emperor's will has a lot of potential, but it depends on what other acts of faith we have.

 

From the text in the section on relics and warlord traits, it seems like we should be able to take ministorum units without breaking our faction.  Hopefully that will be true since it could give us some (desperately needed) extra HQ units if priests are moved to HQ rather than elite.  The book of st lucius seems ok, but it really depends on the buffs we will be able to give out to our characters.  The warlord trait seems pretty decent, I have a bad feeling that Celestine will end up getting this warlord trait by default and lose her 5+ bubble.  If I am wrong though, having two 5+ bubbles could be pretty cool.

 

Overall I remain optimistic, what we have seen so far could be great or not so great depending on what else is in the codex.  I definitely look forward to getting some games in and providing feedback to GW.  I will be curious to see how the actual codex compares to what we are getting in the beta!


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Robo's Anviliarium - My Iron Hands WIP thread

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#16
CaptainMarsh

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The new AoF faith system begs several questions:

1- Are the Faith points generated per turn or at start of game? I would assume start of game. If this assumption is correct, then we are looking at some negatives and positives. You can really hammer away early and often and go for broke if you see an opportunity, but either way that means the lategame is bad. 

 

2- Is it D6 or 2D6 on Test of Faith? I think we might be nitpicking. If I were to say you needed a 5 on a test and I wasn't going to say D6 or 2D6, I would have said it the way they said it regardless, and the +1 doesn't mean much if you look at the AoF as Psychic powers. I believe we are looking at a 2D6 system with some Devotions that are in the 6-7 range. Either way, the chances of AoF not going up is much higher than before.

Overall, I don't like it at face value but I need to see it to draw judgement.

Other elements:

The Order Convictions are the definition of conservative. While other factions after the Space Marines are getting some rather potent ones, a 6+++ and a +1 to Tests of Faith aren't that good. We have now seen three Order Convictions and I can't say any of them would fit my playstyle. 

Strategems showed off were fine. Suffer Not the Witch can be useful situationally. Blessed Bolts is awesome! I can easily see them turning medium and heavy infantry into mulch. Vessel of the Emperor's Will is expensive and requires some setup but I can see being incredibly effective. We don't know how effective until we know more about AoFs.

The relic shown off is fine I guess, depends on how useful we will judge our auras after the book drops. I actually like the WT if I am facing some high AP armies. but we'll have to see what else can be stacked to judge.

As of right now there are too many unknowns to judge what we have seen. I am cautiously optimistic about the possibilities but guarded that we may be seeing too many conservative ideas at play for a faction that is already conservative to a fault.


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Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#17
bkde

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Too soon to comment on faith, but I do only run...33 models with AoF? Seems the loads of ladies in power armour may be a thing soon... Excited to actually run my penitent as they may have a chance ro get up the field now...

Storm bolter strat is awesome, fingers crossed the points value of stormbolters doesn't increase.
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#18
Beams

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Vessels will be great for a melee team, since we know that there's a fight twice. Jam as many melee models (Celestians/Repentia/cannoni) together, charge into a big bad unit, and rip it to shreds.

It'll basically be the fight twice strategem that everyone else gets, but for half your army. Especially if you bring multiple characters so you can attempt to beat that 5 multiple times.

Edited by Beams, 06 December 2018 - 05:27 PM.


#19
Matt_149

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If it doesn't work we can feed it back. These are beta rules after all :)
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#20
CaptainMarsh

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Yep. If the AoF system is bad, we need not be afraid to say so and do so clearly.


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Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#21
A.T.

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Well if you take the army as Ebon Chalice you get +1, so that drops to a 4+ and it says that Simulacrum Imperialis and Dialogus can modify as well. So maybe a cumulative 3+ to get an act to pop? 

 

Plus at a faith point per 10 models that is going to be a semi deep pool.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to find the simulacrum be 2 dice pick one.

 

Size of the faith pool is going to be per turn or per game though, the latter combined with low odds to activate could be something of a problem.



#22
micahwc

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I think if y'all don't like the acts of faith you need to come up with a concise explanation of why, and send it as a large group. I've never played sisters before so I don't have any real feedback on how they should play.

 

I am excited for these, and when they do eventually come out in plastic I will probably buy a bunch of them.


The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#23
CaptainMarsh

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I think if y'all don't like the acts of faith you need to come up with a concise explanation of why, and send it as a large group. I've never played sisters before so I don't have any real feedback on how they should play.

 

I am excited for these, and when they do eventually come out in plastic I will probably buy a bunch of them.

Howdy friend!

As for why we think it could be bad: We can't say anything for certain until we see the book. But I know for me it comes down to a simple fact. The Sisters have a very limited toolkit. They use Bolter weapons, Flamer weapons, and Melta weapons. Those weapons are short-ranged, two of them are overcosted, all of them are worse at what they are meant to do than in previous editions. They are T3 models in an edition where a 3+ isn't what it used to be. They occupy a point level where they are cheap enough to field in good numbers but not enough to weigh you down with bodies, which means the are neither elite nor horde and benefit from neither playstyle. Our melee units are glass hammers that tend to get destroyed quickly or require lots of support, and our most effective shooting units need to get really close.

What makes the army effective are special rules that allow us to leverage mobility and multiple phases to use our limited toolkit in a more effective manner. This was accomplished via Acts of Faith most generally. Acts of Faith didn't scale, but if you like the concept of 'the right unit in the right place at the right time', Sisters are/were for you.

The worry is the new AoF system will be more limited the longer a game drags and far less reliable, making it much harder to leverage our mediocre toolkit. We cannot say this for certain until the book comes out.  


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Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#24
ERJAK

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I think if y'all don't like the acts of faith you need to come up with a concise explanation of why, and send it as a large group. I've never played sisters before so I don't have any real feedback on how they should play.

 

I am excited for these, and when they do eventually come out in plastic I will probably buy a bunch of them.

Howdy friend!

As for why we think it could be bad: We can't say anything for certain until we see the book. But I know for me it comes down to a simple fact. The Sisters have a very limited toolkit. They use Bolter weapons, Flamer weapons, and Melta weapons. Those weapons are short-ranged, two of them are overcosted, all of them are worse at what they are meant to do than in previous editions. They are T3 models in an edition where a 3+ isn't what it used to be. They occupy a point level where they are cheap enough to field in good numbers but not enough to weigh you down with bodies, which means the are neither elite nor horde and benefit from neither playstyle. Our melee units are glass hammers that tend to get destroyed quickly or require lots of support, and our most effective shooting units need to get really close.

What makes the army effective are special rules that allow us to leverage mobility and multiple phases to use our limited toolkit in a more effective manner. This was accomplished via Acts of Faith most generally. Acts of Faith didn't scale, but if you like the concept of 'the right unit in the right place at the right time', Sisters are/were for you.

The worry is the new AoF system will be more limited the longer a game drags and far less reliable, making it much harder to leverage our mediocre toolkit. We cannot say this for certain until the book comes out.  

 

To throw it out there, I'm more worried about them being more limited IMMEDIATELY. If it is roll a 5+ on 1d6 then you'll be spending 6 faith points to get the same number of AoFs we could have gotten before with just Celestine and the normal roll, on average. It's also VERY doubtful that Simulcrum or Dialogus will actually be helpful in making AoFs easier, UNLESS you're running retributors and battle sisters exclusively. Simul and Dialogus are likely to have short range Aura abilities, which means they won't really be able to affect Dominions and Seraphim, and they'll basically be suicide escorts for whatever CQC units sisters get.

 

Obviously, all of this is predicated on a bunch of assumptions I have only very circumstantial evidence to support, but it's my worry,

 

Oh, also that mech sisters will be terrible and we end up an Infantry horde army. I hate infantry spam armies in 40k. All this cool stuff in the universe and I'm stuck with jill and bob from accounting.


Edited by ERJAK, 06 December 2018 - 06:26 PM.


#25
Banjulhu

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I like the mechanical effect of the Blessed Bolts but given that at most it can probably only effect 5 guns at once that need to survive getting within 12" of an enemy just to get 20 shots hitting on 3s at S4 AP-2 doing two damage after saves I'm not overly impressed by it.

It would probably be better making it effect all Bolt weapons and dropping the AP change to AP -1





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