Sisters Preview

[ERJAK]

Couple of things.

 

I have a file with notes from every source I could find that I'm pretty sure is an extensive version of the beta "Codex". I'm highly confident there's no surprises lurking in the release of CA for me as far as Sisters are concerned. I would post it here but it includes points values and I'm pretty sure that's a violation. CAN I DO A COPYPASTA OF MY NOTES or should I not? I want to do this so everyone here can make an informed decision with all the info in one place about this...this...beta codex.

 

Having said that, I think our only recourse is to take advantage of the "feedback" that GW evidently wants from us. I'm not even sure where to send this feedback. To that end, I made this post on the Warhammer 40,000 FB page, the text of which I am copying here so everyone can see it:

 

"I apologize in advance for all this.

Sweet giminy geebuz. You have ONE JOB, guys. ONE. That job consisted of TWO tasks: "1. Don't jack up Celestine & The Wonder Twins. 2. Don't make Acts of Faith *worse*."

 

I hate to say it.

 

I don't *want* to say it -- I really don't!

 

But Warhammer 40,000 (okay technically no one on the web page but it's the only hope I have for getting noticed): 

 

You have failed this cit...er...job. Tasks. Whatever.

 

I've waited for almost 12 hours before saying anything, as I didn't want raw emotion to drive or derail my ability to be professional and courteous. This beta codex has been hyped up -- and I really, REALLY didn't want to get hyped up, because let's face it -- the track record with Sisters isn't what you'd call "good" or "positive". But I allowed myself to feel hope. I see all the CANDY that was passed out to Dark Eldar, and then the...man, I don't even have words to describe the BROKENNESS of the Ork codex, I really don't. But after those long-ignored factions got such love I allowed myself to feel hope that maybe, just maybe the beta codex would have something like the candy and toys that were passed out to DE and Orks.

 

...and I shouldn't have, because as we all KNOW -- especially where a good Sisters codex is concerned, evidently -- hope is the first step to disappointment.

 

Where are we supposed to send our feedback? Is there a special email address we're supposed to use? I can only hope there will be enough feedback and we can course-correct this before it's too late."

 

If you really, honestly and truly care about the future of our beloved Sisters, please comment on my comment and let our voices be heard. This beta codex is a travesty and a slap in the face to all true Sisters players whom have been holding on and hoping that this would be our time, finally, after so MANY years, to have a decent codex. I believe it's not too late, and I believe if we all provide enough feedback we can get this mess fixed before we get a lackluster, bottom-tier trash codex next Fall.

 

Help me guys! Please! This is pretty much our moment to make a difference -- and GW has proven they have NO IDEA how to make a strong Sisters codex! They legitimately need our help! MAKE OUR VOICES BE HEARD!

 It's the same email address as the FAQ, I believe. 40kFAQ@gwplc.com

[ERJAK]

Too much bolter porn on gw heads. Too much time wasted making marines codexes that dont need to exist. Come to sisters and all they got is ahmagerd boltaz!

 

Anyways, i just had a thought. How does the leaked AoF system look in the light of Kill Team? I dont know how kill team plays out so have no idea how this AoF reflects in that system.

Poor. Even getting down to that scale, the bonuses just aren't significant enough to matter. Especially when you can't boost the roll very much.

 

The AoF system as a whole is the second worst part of the codex. If they hadn't of botched that so badly, we'd be more or less okay. If they had left the same abilities as before, we'd be cherry. If they had given something a little bit more substantial(even reroll to hit instead of +1 and +6 move instead of +3) it would still be solid. As it stands...I can't see even kill teams getting much mileage out of it. Let alone an entire SoB army.

 

The worst thing was what they did to Celestine and the Gemini.

[Trokair]

I am going to start this by saying that I have no experience of playing Sisters or how the army works. So I am coming to this with a new comer’s perspective.

 

Sister’s were one of the armies I considered when I first entered the hobby but in the end I went with plastic based army because I could not make my budget stretch that far back then. As the various armies that I was considering back then have made the transition to plastic I have collected each of them. So I am looking forward to Plastic Sisters and want to participate in the Beta Codex and give feedback if able (by using proxies to play for the foreseeable future).

 

As such I am a little disappointed with the overall attitude that I am encountering here. From what I have read I can see why people are disappointed, angry and outraged. But please, keep you heads. If you want to see Sisters prosper play games with the new rules, lots of games. Then when you have a good sample size of games give GW your feedback in calm and collected manner.

 

Regarding Acts of Faith, yes they are les impactful then the Index versions, and some of the bonus do seem a little week, but if I may draw a comparison to an army I do play, Deathwatch (Primaris based).

 

The Deathwatch Mission tactics are a small bonus to wound against certain type of units. Which can be very impactful if the enemy fields a lot of the same type, but if they field a balanced army with a bit if of everything (or lots of transports) then mission tactics do very little. Yes there are ways to change the tactic, but against a balanced list they are still not going to do a lot.

 

Acts of faith used to be very impactful, now they are more minor and situational, and my initial thought is that they will prove their worth in game, but not in the same way that the old ones did. They are now a skill tool, effective if used right. In a maelstrom game the extra movement might be critical, but the extra movement is no longer a “free transport” kind of move, its function has changed, and we need to adapt.

 

Now as I said, I have no experience and the codex may be worse than the index, rather than just different, but to determine that we need to play games, lots of games.

 

So please, don’t abandon the Sisters now because the rules feel bad, stay with them and come next summer/autumn (the earliest I expect the actual codex) we may see a better codex.

[Atrus]

No one here is going to drop sisters over this. We're used to less than stellar codexes. Its just been nice to have something for a while that gave us a nice boost.

Whats happening here mostly is just venting. Once its out of our systems we'll be back to stoically sallying forth and making gold out of straw.

 

I do look forward to proxying all my sisters as seraphim and running blob seraphim around celestine and cannoness for the 3+/3++ and maybe the 6+++ order, just for the lolz of doing it.

[CaptainMarsh]

I am going to start this by saying that I have no experience of playing Sisters or how the army works. So I am coming to this with a new comer’s perspective.

 

Sister’s were one of the armies I considered when I first entered the hobby but in the end I went with plastic based army because I could not make my budget stretch that far back then. As the various armies that I was considering back then have made the transition to plastic I have collected each of them. So I am looking forward to Plastic Sisters and want to participate in the Beta Codex and give feedback if able (by using proxies to play for the foreseeable future).

 

As such I am a little disappointed with the overall attitude that I am encountering here. From what I have read I can see why people are disappointed, angry and outraged. But please, keep you heads. If you want to see Sisters prosper play games with the new rules, lots of games. Then when you have a good sample size of games give GW your feedback in calm and collected manner.

 

Regarding Acts of Faith, yes they are les impactful then the Index versions, and some of the bonus do seem a little week, but if I may draw a comparison to an army I do play, Deathwatch (Primaris based).

 

The Deathwatch Mission tactics are a small bonus to wound against certain type of units. Which can be very impactful if the enemy fields a lot of the same type, but if they field a balanced army with a bit if of everything (or lots of transports) then mission tactics do very little. Yes there are ways to change the tactic, but against a balanced list they are still not going to do a lot.

 

Acts of faith used to be very impactful, now they are more minor and situational, and my initial thought is that they will prove their worth in game, but not in the same way that the old ones did. They are now a skill tool, effective if used right. In a maelstrom game the extra movement might be critical, but the extra movement is no longer a “free transport” kind of move, its function has changed, and we need to adapt.

 

Now as I said, I have no experience and the codex may be worse than the index, rather than just different, but to determine that we need to play games, lots of games.

 

So please, don’t abandon the Sisters now because the rules feel bad, stay with them and come next summer/autumn (the earliest I expect the actual codex) we may see a better codex.

No one is talking of abandoning Sisters. In fact, with the exception of one person, I don't think anyone is planning on writing hysterical e-mails to GW 'bout it, either, and most people are willing to give it a try. I am. I have also played an outrageous amount of 8th and believe I have a firm handle on how this army plays, what this codex looks like, and the critical failings I am seeing in it. Will I try it? Absolutely. I already have two games lined up Friday when we get our store copy, three on Saturday, two more on Sunday. I am not going into this with any real hope that it will feel anywhere near as effective as the index army, but I am willing to be wrong. I just don't expect to be wrong.

 

I also play Deathwatch, btw. Fun army!

Mission Tactics aren't all they get. Special Issue Ammunition is the key, and vitally, synergize very effectively. In fact I'd say Special Issue Ammunition is the real key! I can't tell you how effective AutoBolt Intercessor Kill Teams are when firing Hellfire at Ork Boys, 2's to wound re-rolling 1's. Hellfire is wounding everything in sight that isn't titanic or a vehicle on 2's. I'd be so bold to say that Hellfire, just one SIA of four and even without Mission Tactics, is as effective a murder tool against infantry as anything Sisters can bring. And you get to pick and choose every time a unit fires.

That is the real flexibility and power of Deathwatch. Once they're on the field their SIA capable firearms can pick and choose how they're going to murder opposing models. You might not be able to rely on Mission Tactics (though they are automatic and can be changed via a strategem, not to mention relic) on every shot, but almost every SIA equipped weapon is flexible and viable against almost any target in the game.

 

And that isn't even getting into the silly things you can do with the make-up of Veteran Kill Teams or Primaris...which is what I mean by toolkit. Deathwatch have a fantastic and versatile toolkit. Mission Tactics aren't key to how they function; you could remove that mechanic entirely and as long as they have SIA they would still be effective.

[Scurrae]

Exept that do not playing with the Deathwatch Mission Tactic don't make you throw away 80% of Deathwatch's gameplay, for the simple reason that they have plenty of other tools. In this beta codex, the core rules of AoF show you something that is an unreliable side effect, it is not necessarly bad... but the army is build around that unreliable side effect... and no other tool to compensate.

[Trokair]

I am glad to hear that experienced players are planning on sticking around. I may have been a little hyperbolic in my post but having read some 12 odd pages of increasing despair and anger made it all feel somewhat hopeless.

 

 

In regards to Special Issue Ammunition, yes they are certainly the Key and Mission Tactics are just a little bonus, so the comparison was imperfect. I just wanted express my thoughts that to me the design of the new AoF feels similar in that it is a small bonus that skill/circumstans will make work. The fact that the army seems to be intended to be reliant on AoF is a different issue in some regard. Time will tell.

 

Good luck with your early games CaptainMarsh.

[ERJAK]

I am going to start this by saying that I have no experience of playing Sisters or how the army works. So I am coming to this with a new comer’s perspective.

 

Sister’s were one of the armies I considered when I first entered the hobby but in the end I went with plastic based army because I could not make my budget stretch that far back then. As the various armies that I was considering back then have made the transition to plastic I have collected each of them. So I am looking forward to Plastic Sisters and want to participate in the Beta Codex and give feedback if able (by using proxies to play for the foreseeable future).

 

As such I am a little disappointed with the overall attitude that I am encountering here. From what I have read I can see why people are disappointed, angry and outraged. But please, keep you heads. If you want to see Sisters prosper play games with the new rules, lots of games. Then when you have a good sample size of games give GW your feedback in calm and collected manner.

 

Regarding Acts of Faith, yes they are les impactful then the Index versions, and some of the bonus do seem a little week, but if I may draw a comparison to an army I do play, Deathwatch (Primaris based).

 

The Deathwatch Mission tactics are a small bonus to wound against certain type of units. Which can be very impactful if the enemy fields a lot of the same type, but if they field a balanced army with a bit if of everything (or lots of transports) then mission tactics do very little. Yes there are ways to change the tactic, but against a balanced list they are still not going to do a lot.

 

Acts of faith used to be very impactful, now they are more minor and situational, and my initial thought is that they will prove their worth in game, but not in the same way that the old ones did. They are now a skill tool, effective if used right. In a maelstrom game the extra movement might be critical, but the extra movement is no longer a “free transport” kind of move, its function has changed, and we need to adapt.

 

Now as I said, I have no experience and the codex may be worse than the index, rather than just different, but to determine that we need to play games, lots of games.

 

So please, don’t abandon the Sisters now because the rules feel bad, stay with them and come next summer/autumn (the earliest I expect the actual codex) we may see a better codex.

I played Sisters in 6th and 7th when they weren't even a joke faction, I can survive this. I'm just absolutely furious about the 'direction' they've gone in. The new list is inferior to the Index in every way.

 

There is quite a lot of context to why acts of faith being the way they are make them largely non-functional. A direct comparison to Deathwatch's special rule is a bit of an apples to oranges thing. You have to remember that Deathwatch and other space marine armies have FAR more options available to them, even in a mono-codex force. It also applies to the entire army at once, is free, can be used multiple times per turn and doesn't require a die-roll to actually use. You also didn't have to give up a massive amount of your army's power to use them.

 

If you WERE to do an apples to apples comparison of AoFs to Deathwatch Mission tactics, I would say that the mission tactics are FAR superior. Even the stratagems surrounding them are better.

 

Here is the problem with the AoFs as they are now: Half of our weapons don't roll to hit, the other half isn't worth trying to setup a Vessels of the Emperor shot to gain a measley +1; You're better off just bringing Space Marine dreadnoughts and using those; +3" movement is an irrelevant bonus for a sinlge unit and nowhere near good enough to justify using Vessels of the Emperor on. Psychic protection is extremely situational. Morale immunity is outright useless. The Passion is far too hard to actually get off and is only actually useful to 3 units in the entire book.

 

Imagine if deathwatch had: 'Once per turn, one unit may reroll hit rolls from shot fired by Combi-weapons' instead of mission tactics and that's about how useful these are.

 

They are absolutely NOT a skill tool. This I have to disagree with you on outright. The bonuses are so inconsequential, yet so heavily gated, that it essentially doesn't matter if you succeed an act of faith or not. Anything used to generate Faith points beyond your starting amount is wasted. You'll likely never use all of your faith points in a game ever. The example you gave is the ONLY meaningful use of +3 movement. Even to be mediocre small benefits they need to be better than they are.

[A.T.]

Cool, so vessels affects vehicles - So if you get lucky and spend 3 CP you have 3d6 melta missiles hitting on 2's rerolling ones.

(edit - it's not a trap)

[Montford]

OK for me its time to knuckle down. This is what I have to work with so I'm rolling up my sleeves and going to see what I can do.

 

My starting point is my Tournament list from June this year as I did quite well with it. It was 1999 points and now I see it comes in at 1752. That was more of a points drop than I expected. I'm going to build it back up to 2K and see how it does in a few games against differemt Armies using the new rules. I think that will allow me a fair comparison between the new and old ruleset as square one. Then I'll make changes going forward based on how those games go.  That should also allow to better provide informed feedback to GW.

[A.T.]

On the subject of faith - with them being so much like stratagems perhaps GW should just go all the way.

 

I've posted the same thought elsewhere but faith with costs rather than activation rolls (i.e. +3 movement costs 1 point, double fight costs 3, etc) and then make the faith on death effect universal even if that means cutting down on the starting pool.

 

It's less rolling and WH style faith, plan when you have to use it but get more as the game goes on... but only if you are getting shot up.

[Drider]

Couple of things.

 

I have a file with notes from every source I could find that I'm pretty sure is an extensive version of the beta "Codex". I'm highly confident there's no surprises lurking in the release of CA for me as far as Sisters are concerned. I would post it here but it includes points values and I'm pretty sure that's a violation. CAN I DO A COPYPASTA OF MY NOTES or should I not? I want to do this so everyone here can make an informed decision with all the info in one place about this...this...beta codex.

 

Having said that, I think our only recourse is to take advantage of the "feedback" that GW evidently wants from us. I'm not even sure where to send this feedback. To that end, I made this post on the Warhammer 40,000 FB page, the text of which I am copying here so everyone can see it:

 

"I apologize in advance for all this.

Sweet giminy geebuz. You have ONE JOB, guys. ONE. That job consisted of TWO tasks: "1. Don't jack up Celestine & The Wonder Twins. 2. Don't make Acts of Faith *worse*."

 

I hate to say it.

 

I don't *want* to say it -- I really don't!

 

But Warhammer 40,000 (okay technically no one on the web page but it's the only hope I have for getting noticed): 

 

You have failed this cit...er...job. Tasks. Whatever.

 

I've waited for almost 12 hours before saying anything, as I didn't want raw emotion to drive or derail my ability to be professional and courteous. This beta codex has been hyped up -- and I really, REALLY didn't want to get hyped up, because let's face it -- the track record with Sisters isn't what you'd call "good" or "positive". But I allowed myself to feel hope. I see all the CANDY that was passed out to Dark Eldar, and then the...man, I don't even have words to describe the BROKENNESS of the Ork codex, I really don't. But after those long-ignored factions got such love I allowed myself to feel hope that maybe, just maybe the beta codex would have something like the candy and toys that were passed out to DE and Orks.

 

...and I shouldn't have, because as we all KNOW -- especially where a good Sisters codex is concerned, evidently -- hope is the first step to disappointment.

 

Where are we supposed to send our feedback? Is there a special email address we're supposed to use? I can only hope there will be enough feedback and we can course-correct this before it's too late."

 

If you really, honestly and truly care about the future of our beloved Sisters, please comment on my comment and let our voices be heard. This beta codex is a travesty and a slap in the face to all true Sisters players whom have been holding on and hoping that this would be our time, finally, after so MANY years, to have a decent codex. I believe it's not too late, and I believe if we all provide enough feedback we can get this mess fixed before we get a lackluster, bottom-tier trash codex next Fall.

 

Help me guys! Please! This is pretty much our moment to make a difference -- and GW has proven they have NO IDEA how to make a strong Sisters codex! They legitimately need our help! MAKE OUR VOICES BE HEARD!

 

Wow. You should be ashamed of yourself, you're acting like a petulant child. What makes you think it's ok to be so abusive to the social media team?

[TheFinisher4Ever]

 

 

Cool, so vessels affects vehicles - So if you get lucky and spend 3 CP you have 3d6 melta missiles hitting on 2's rerolling ones.

It's a trap.

 

(you can't reroll 1s - as the faith adds 1s to your hit rolls, so they are all 2s. So you might as well stick with the reroll and not waste the faith and 3cps ... at least until it becomes reroll natural 1s)

I don't think that's correct. You do all rerolls before modifiers. So you would reroll 1s to hit as they are still 1s when rerolls happen.

 

I'm honestly just kinda shocked at how poorly this codex has turned out. This is the first time in 8th that a codex has ever been straight up worse than the index. And sisters lists weren't lighting the competitive scene on fire anyways. I just don't understand the thought process.

[taikishi]

No one here is going to drop sisters over this. We're used to less than stellar codexes. Its just been nice to have something for a while that gave us a nice boost.

Whats happening here mostly is just venting. Once its out of our systems we'll be back to stoically sallying forth and making gold out of straw.

 

I do look forward to proxying all my sisters as seraphim and running blob seraphim around celestine and cannoness for the 3+/3++ and maybe the 6+++ order, just for the lolz of doing it.

 

Actually, I'm already not playing 8th edition. This, at the moment, has me likely to drop 40K completely even if a 9th edition rolls around that I like the rules for. I'm that angry still.

[taikishi]

 

 

Cool, so vessels affects vehicles - So if you get lucky and spend 3 CP you have 3d6 melta missiles hitting on 2's rerolling ones.

It's a trap.

 

(you can't reroll 1s - as the faith adds 1s to your hit rolls, so they are all 2s. So you might as well stick with the reroll and not waste the faith and 3cps ... at least until it becomes reroll natural 1s)

I don't think that's correct. You do all rerolls before modifiers. So you would reroll 1s to hit as they are still 1s when rerolls happen.

 

I'm honestly just kinda shocked at how poorly this codex has turned out. This is the first time in 8th that a codex has ever been straight up worse than the index. And sisters lists weren't lighting the competitive scene on fire anyways. I just don't understand the thought process.

 

 

Yeah, re-rolls are determined before success/failure. It's one of the things I hate about 8th. "Oh, hey, I know this -2 means I fail the charge but RAW I can't re-roll it because I would have passed before the -2."

[Purifying Tempest]

This is so weird... I'm pretty sure people have been fussing that flamers are 50% of our weaponry, thus don't need hit rolls, thus the AoF is garbage because it has no impact on half of our weaponry.

 

I've kept up pretty well with the Sisters meta over the past 18 months and I've played pretty extensively, as well.  My games haven't been tippy-toppy competitive, but they're also not beer and pretzels casual, somewhere in between.

 

I've tried about every permutation of flamers, and I've found that the best flamers are the ones on our vehicles.  Rets with HF move too slow and cost too much to really be of much note, mainly because HB Rets are so much better.  Flamer Doms are a myth because Melta Doms are so great, and even SB Doms pull out ahead.  Which means BSS are the ones who carry Flamers, and I've had a little success with them, like 1 squad with 3 Flamers for pushing closer to the opponent while SB BSS keep the midfield.

 

The point is... 8th edition Flamers have problems that all stem from price and range, especially compared with the Stormbolter, that has manifested in meta as being: Flamers are a very niche weapon that shows up pretty rarely.

 

So saying we're losing so much firepower (heh, pun) because AoF for shooting doesn't affect our Flamers... which got just a sliver better (not enough), that means either people are REALLY out of touch with what happens on the tabletop, or we're just imagining slights so we can be upset about the codex.

 

The +1 to hit affects SO MUCH MORE of our conventional firepower, that is brought today in lists, than you guys are letting on.  I'd wager that Flamers and Heavy Flamers do not contribute even 10% of our overall firepower currently.  And most of that 10% is the 2 HF on the Repressors.

[Mekhitar]

The trouble is that the Codex provided an opportunity for flamers, which are - as you point out - so very bad in 8th, a chance to redeem themselves. Flames are so characteristic of the sisters. If any army was going to get a stratagem to make them viable, we were. Instead it is a missed opportunity. Rather than be an army of the holy trinity, we are an army of bolters and meltaguns. And with the prevalence of invuln a this edition, even the melta is priced too high.

 

Erjak, if you would be willing to pm me with your copypasta I would appreciate it. I play several games a week and would like to plan ahead for my extensive play testing of this beta Codex.

 

And I know it is a little buried, but I was imagining s nearby priest for +1A on my repentia math :)

[Purifying Tempest]

I agree that there was a lot of space for improvement on Flamers, but we're pretending they were a mainstay of our army, and not buffing them to high Terra with Acts of Faith was a crime.  I don't even know if I have ever double-tapped a Flamer-type weapon with an Act of Faith in the current setting.  Sure, GW didn't even take a swing at Flamers, and stared as a strike down the middle of the plate went by, which makes it frustrating that a third of the Holy Trinity is merely a gatekeeper for the stratagem that bears the same name.  But let's not pretend that Flamers and Heavy Flamers on Sororitas infantry is something it isn't: a significant portion of our current playstyle.

[A.T.]

I don't think that's correct. You do all rerolls before modifiers. So you would reroll 1s to hit as they are still 1s when rerolls happen.

Yeah, in retrospect I think I might be mixing it up with the reroll issues the seraphim used to have.

[Beams]

If you could pm me as well ...

 

 

As for Flamers, I used them quite heavily. Dom Flamers in a Repressor gave you 5d6 Str 4 auto hits, and 2d6 str 5 ap -1. It was a super easy way to clear out any kind of infantry, and when it exploded, it left you Dominions' in a guard position, generally able to double tap flame someone.

 

 

Flamers had a better total damage skew than stormbolters, but we're about even at pt per damage, and with Flamers range limitation, stormbolters always looked better. But Flamers could and would do more damage in ideal conditions than stormbolters could.

 

They just needed a -2 pt cost, and/or +1" to range before they would have really been worth it.

 

Edit: Also, being assault weapons meant you could move + advance and shoot, which helped mobility a bit, especially that first turn in the tank.

[Ficinus]

Over 50% of the foot sisters I run have some sort of flamer in their hands. Even if I'm running 800 points of terminators as a backup for my Sisters, I run a minimum of three 5 woman battle sister squads with flamer, heavy flamer, and combi-flamer and a retributor squad with four heavy flamers and a combi-flamer. Sometimes I'll add two more of those five woman BSS squads with three flamers. It's not super duper great, but I can play a competitive game.

[Scurrae]

Agree with a lot of things you said Tempest (the main weapon of SB is definitly melta gun) but about that +1 to hit, mmmh... their accuracy is not bad, and I really think that what helped them (the most) at keeping their head above water in 8th was their capacity to deliver a good amount of shots...

SoB are weird somewhere, playing the "elite army archetype" with vet guards stat line, if they were more resilient, quality shots would certainly be better for them, but they are not, and giving them quality shots do not help them against what can reap them easily, they will just be better at something they are already naturaly good at.

Being balanced is better.

 

PS : BSS w storm bolter > BSS w flamer during this ed. the only flamer that deserved to be on the table was on immolator, on infantry : it was poor choice.

[dracpanzer]

The +1 to hit AoF would have been better if it likewise gave +1 to wound to flamers, since it otherwise doesn't effect them. Not a lot to expect from something that replaces a rule that allowed a unit to fire twice a turn. Something that some guard tanks can get simply by not moving...

[ERJAK]

 

Cool, so vessels affects vehicles - So if you get lucky and spend 3 CP you have 3d6 melta missiles hitting on 2's rerolling ones.

It's a trap.

 

(you can't reroll 1s - as the faith adds 1s to your hit rolls, so they are all 2s. So you might as well stick with the reroll and not waste the faith and 3cps ... at least until it becomes reroll natural 1s)

 

Rerolls before modifiers.

[ERJAK]

This is so weird... I'm pretty sure people have been fussing that flamers are 50% of our weaponry, thus don't need hit rolls, thus the AoF is garbage because it has no impact on half of our weaponry.

 

I've kept up pretty well with the Sisters meta over the past 18 months and I've played pretty extensively, as well.  My games haven't been tippy-toppy competitive, but they're also not beer and pretzels casual, somewhere in between.

 

I've tried about every permutation of flamers, and I've found that the best flamers are the ones on our vehicles.  Rets with HF move too slow and cost too much to really be of much note, mainly because HB Rets are so much better.  Flamer Doms are a myth because Melta Doms are so great, and even SB Doms pull out ahead.  Which means BSS are the ones who carry Flamers, and I've had a little success with them, like 1 squad with 3 Flamers for pushing closer to the opponent while SB BSS keep the midfield.

 

The point is... 8th edition Flamers have problems that all stem from price and range, especially compared with the Stormbolter, that has manifested in meta as being: Flamers are a very niche weapon that shows up pretty rarely.

 

So saying we're losing so much firepower (heh, pun) because AoF for shooting doesn't affect our Flamers... which got just a sliver better (not enough), that means either people are REALLY out of touch with what happens on the tabletop, or we're just imagining slights so we can be upset about the codex.

 

The +1 to hit affects SO MUCH MORE of our conventional firepower, that is brought today in lists, than you guys are letting on.  I'd wager that Flamers and Heavy Flamers do not contribute even 10% of our overall firepower currently.  And most of that 10% is the 2 HF on the Repressors.

That is a very creative interpretation of the issue, I'll give you that.  But no one said 'we're losing a bunch of firepower' I said 'it doesn't make any sense for what the army is supporsed to be'.

 

Flamers are a core aspect of Sisters and a part of the  holy trinity. They're supposed to be an important part of our identity. The problem is that they're terrible, so no one takes them. GW had a chance to fix flamers so that they had more widespread application and weren't just 'worse Stormbolters/Heavy bolters' and they didn't use it. 

 

On top of that, they chose to do +1 to hit for AoFs instead of +1 to wound so that flamer weapons are excluded from the paltry benefit it offers. The price cut ends up being totally negated by the fact that they can't be improved by AoFs anymore. So rather than improve flamer weapons in any way that would make them a more meaningful option, they actually made them worse objectively, and then worse again relative to the weapons that can still benefit from AoF. Even with the points saved from the price changes, flamer options are still just as subpar or possibly even worse as they were before the book came out.

 

It's not about losing anything. It's about having an opportunity to gain something in an area that is lacking that is fluff appropriate and them missing the opportunity entirely for seemingly no reason..

 

Side bar: Pretty sure +1 to wound affects EVERY weapon.