Sisters Preview

[CrusherJoe]

Good stuff, y'all. I agree -- and I've always held that reasoned discourse is far better than emotional ranting. I apologize to everyone here, I'm afraid I've been more emotional than rational about this whole mess. 

 

I intend on doing a lot of playtesting, list crafting, and more playtesting -- both as a stand-alone army and as a soup ingredient. My initial thoughts are that this feels less like a full release (and we know it's isn't) and more like one of the old "get you by" things from WD years ago. It also feels like Sisters may not stand by themselves, but are better with other Imperial support. We'll see.

[Slasher956]

My initial thoughts are this reads more a rehashed index list than a beta dex...

HQs - where is our generic mobile one? Ie one with a jump pack or bike or in a vehicle like every other dex?

Wounds - so we go 1 wound, a single 2 wound per model unit to 4 wound elites to 5 wound hqs... there is no gradual change and I find that weird

 

The other thing is...as a new dex it should be written to stand alone not having to soup to be competitive

 

 

Well time will

[A.T.]

I feel repentia and arcos are counters to 2 different kinda of targets.

Its pretty obvious; arcos = anti chaff. Repentia = anti bignasty.

 

Index repentia were statistically inferior to death cultists against many forms of 'bignasty' unit unless they were trailing along a mistress and priest. At strength 8 with a bonus attack though they are quite a bit stronger.

[ERJAK]

One interesting ray of light is that Battalion+Dominions+Allies actually got a fair bit better. It was at a hell of a cost to pay, but my standard tournament list core is technically stronger than it was...if you ignore how much use I got out of Celestine and a unit of Inferno pistol Seraphim.

 

Every time I try to find something good to say about this book I talk myself out of it.

[Atrus]

Im curious to see where my brigade will finish up points wise. Im hopeful that i can add in some ministorum; priest model i like, couple of pengines cuz they so amazing looking. Though i need to replace the pilot from one i used for my knight. Think i have an old penitent psyker model from WH days i might be able to make work.

[ERJAK]

Im curious to see where my brigade will finish up points wise. Im hopeful that i can add in some ministorum; priest model i like, couple of pengines cuz they so amazing looking. Though i need to replace the pilot from one i used for my knight. Think i have an old penitent psyker model from WH days i might be able to make work.

The things that have changed in price are:

 

Celestine down 40

Uriah down 40

Elite priest down 10 from previous priest

Exorcists down 10

Melta down 3

Combi-Melta down 4

Flamer down 3

Inferno Pistol down 2

Combi-flamer down 3

Heavy Flamer down 3

Multimelta down 5

Twin Multimelta down 14

Immolation flamer down 5

Reptentia down 2

Dialogus Up 15

Evis down 1

 

Don't know about Penitent Engines, but I heard they got slightly cheaper.

 

Keep in mind that most of the weapon drops are in line with the universal drops every army is seeing. It ends up totaling about 150pts for an average list with Celestine and 100ish for non-Celestine lists.

[Atrus]

Well ive heard that Imagifiers are gone and are 10pt upgrade for squads, so thats 90-120pts there straight away. 40-90pt from celestine (may not take geminae), 30 from 3 exorcists. Plus small numbers from equipments and units- lost count in the 60s. Probably looking close to 300pt difference maybe? That should be enough to play around with some things.

[Montford]

 

Im curious to see where my brigade will finish up points wise. Im hopeful that i can add in some ministorum; priest model i like, couple of pengines cuz they so amazing looking. Though i need to replace the pilot from one i used for my knight. Think i have an old penitent psyker model from WH days i might be able to make work.

The things that have changed in price are:

 

Celestine down 40

Uriah down 40

Elite priest down 10 from previous priest

Exorcists down 10

Melta down 3

Combi-Melta down 4

Flamer down 3

Inferno Pistol down 2

Combi-flamer down 3

Heavy Flamer down 3

Multimelta down 5

Twin Multimelta down 14

Immolation flamer down 5

Reptentia down 2

Dialogus Up 15

Evis down 1

 

Don't know about Penitent Engines, but I heard they got slightly cheaper.

 

Keep in mind that most of the weapon drops are in line with the universal drops every army is seeing. It ends up totaling about 150pts for an average list with Celestine and 100ish for non-Celestine lists.

 

 

Penitent Engines are down 29 points.

[Slasher956]

going off that list of points my 2K brigade (in the lists sub-forum) is now ~190 points* cheaper but needs at least one more elite.

 

so putting all 6 troop squads up 10 girls strong that leaves me about 150 points so a priest + another immolator. 

 

As I'm OoOML, on AoF it'll be from 1+1+possible 4 a turn (ave 16 in a 4 turn game) to 3+ 9 + losses for the game.... so no real change in number of AoFs

 

 

*after moving the 4 Imags back to the squads as upgrades.

[taikishi]

Well ive heard that Imagifiers are gone and are 10pt upgrade for squads, so thats 90-120pts there straight away. 40-90pt from celestine (may not take geminae), 30 from 3 exorcists. Plus small numbers from equipments and units- lost count in the 60s. Probably looking close to 300pt difference maybe? That should be enough to play around with some things.

 

 

Imagifiers were replaced with Similacrum Imperialis. 10pt unit upgrade for +1 on AoF roll, but only BSS, Celestians, Dominions and Retributors can take them and it has to be a separate model from your VSS and your special/heavy weapons, so if you were taking 5-model Dominion/Retributor squads before they now need to be 6 model, so their price (before their weapons dropped) went up 19ppu

[taikishi]

going off that list of points my 2K brigade (in the lists sub-forum) is now ~190 points* cheaper but needs at least one more elite.

 

so putting all 6 troop squads up 10 girls strong that leaves me about 150 points so a priest + another immolator. 

 

As I'm OoOML, on AoF it'll be from 1+1+possible 4 a turn (ave 16 in a 4 turn game) to 3+ 9 + losses for the game.... so no real change in number of AoFs

 

 

*after moving the 4 Imags back to the squads as upgrades.

 

4? After Rule of X hit, you were limited to 3 in a 2000 point game. And you were running 90 Sisters/Crusaders in your army? Because the bonus faith points are for every 10 infantry models with the Acts of Faith rule.

[Slasher956]

That list was written before the R03 hit!

 

& yes that many girls!... 6 squads of 9 BSS, 1 x 5 seraphim, 1 x 6 seraphim, 1 x 6 dominion, 2 x 5 Rets, 9 repentia...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349917-2k-brigade/

 

edit - earlier comment was wrong about needing the extra elite... forgot that the saints bodyguard are now an elite unit on their own :p

[Montford]

Imagifiers once filled my Elite slots for Brigade formations. Now I'll need to use other units. That's making me rework my lists on top of the rules changes.

[tvih]

Since the Simulacrum can be upgraded to a banner, I guess it means my banner miniature is no longer obsolete :P

[Ignispacium]

I'm not much of a serious sisters player. I'm the only one I know of in person and I've got a whole almost 1,000 points of un-optimized metal sisters that I will periodically play. So I'm not coming in to this discussion as an experienced or even very dedicated sisters player.

 

As a casual player looking at the beta codex, it's boring. I also understand that this is a beta codex and doesn't include the no doubt 2-5 new units or models that the final version will. This however doesn't make me want to run out and buy another 1,000 points of metal (or plastic) sisters in anticipation of the final copy.

 

The index AoF were strong, I'd even say they could stand some toning down, but they made up for the fact that the army was overall very lacklustre in terms of movement and offensive capability and in identity.

 

If someone were to theoretically take away Acts of Faith entirely, the sisters look largely like weaker space marines with far fewer unit and weapon choices. The beta acts read not like a special army wide feature (see imperial guard orders or power from pain or even psychic powers) but rather like the sisters traded 2/3rds of the space marines equipment for access to a set of extra stratagems.

 

Also Ebon Chalice seems far too much like an auto-include if a player is using AoF to any significant degree. I've mentioned it elsewhere but it's similar to getting a free ten points on every simulacrum eligible unit while giving a simulacrum to units that can't take them.

 

Maybe I can't see the potential and the power with this new codex because of my lack of experience with the army. If this beta codex reflects what will likely be in the final product (and that's accounting for 2-5 new units or models) then I don't know how enthusiastic players will be to adopt it.

[Servant of Dante]

Personally, I like where the power level of each individual AoF is right now, based on what I’ve read. What I think I’d like to see is more Faith Points and no restriction on how many units can attempt a given AoF in 1 turn. If it were like the WH system in that each unit can attempt each AoF up to once per turn, and the base number of FPs went up to 5 or 6 (edit: lowering the ratio of models to FPs might be better for scaling, like 1 per 6 models or something, though that would be a bit more clunky to count) I think that would be reasonable. But of course I’ve not played any games yet so I’m not just eyeballing things. However, these would both be very simple changes to make for GW.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I'm slogging my way through the Forge the Narrative rundown of the Beta Codex and I've picked up on a few things I haven't seen before (that may have been mentioned anyway):

• A Mistress of Repentance does not take up an Elites slot in a Battleforged army.
• Arco-Flagellants have traded their 5++ save for a 5+ FNP.
• All the former Ecclesiarchal Battle Conclave units (Arco-Flagellants, Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins) do not take up Elites slots in an army that includes a Priest.
• Penitent Engines fight twice now (like Berzerkers) rather than having a chance to fight again immediately, so there's the potential for them to take damage between rounds of attacks.

[Jomgor]

we should have trash command point options and just keep the double phase aspect of all our AoF. move twice, shoot twice, fight twice, auto-pass morale, change the heal/rez to just a rez and leave the heal to hospitaller so shes not a wholly redundant unit within another mechanic. Generate a flat 3 points per turn +1 for complete missing units or for like every 10 missing models, change martyrdom to just give +1, limit each AoF to once a game turn for each unit with a max use across the army in a turn, say 3 for the sake of fluff. Give tanks Laud Hailer wargear option and a AoF to move and not suffer heavy weapon penalties. add a buff to diologous so she extends auras 3"

 

I really feel like the AoF should be the prime focus of SoB. Honestly I'd be 100% ok with SoB getting really non-standard having zero stratagems and just better AoF.

They were fun, they were always the reason i liked sisters more than other armies, its the only thing gameplay wise that made them unique and now it seems to be a quasi-afterthought in the shadow of standardizing points costs and the stratagem system.

 

aside from that the changes seem decent. Be nice if priests got SOME wargear options rather than being another pure aura battery but that seems to be a running theme with sisters in the beta and I don't entirely dislike the idea. at least let me give the dudes a power maul though :C

 

Id also like to see a unique penitent AoF shared between penitent engines, repentia and ministorum conclave units that allows them to move and advance in the move and shoot phase then still be able to charge. probably limit its use to if you have a battleforged SoB detachment. In my head I just see these berserk killing machines who's only objective is the death of their enemies, and it doesn't make sense that these specifically insane people would march in formation with the army. No they'd be out front charging with foaming mouths desperate to enter the fray and start slaying xeno's and heretics! They should be able to do that! Add a negative modifier to it so you lose cover bonuses or overwatch hurts more, these are psychos sprinting through the open to enter melee after all.

 

wishful thinking though amirite. the ideology that went into this beta makes me pretty un-hopeful about the future of sisters gameplay-wise. as usual. I get that its a beta and things will change. my problem is that the very core, the absolute root of these rules; the employees at GW that write them in the first  place do not seem to have a design philosophy that I feel fits with SoB. Their priorities just seem misplaced. The things that made sisters unique from marines are being watered down while the things that make them similar are brought even more in line with the standard template. I can say with 99% certainty that if we have to wait for regular FAQ updates for changes to the beta rules I'm probably just going to not play until they get sorted out for good. GW has never left me confident with the way they handle things, especially when it involves community feedback. that combined with their abysmal timetables and the sheer amount of work this beta looks like it needs the road seems very long and very hard and this is just a hobby, not to mention we haven't even seen the new units. Assuming there will be new units.

 

Beta codex? I see a Beta Index at the absolute most. and even that leaves a bitter taste of over-estimation in my mouth.

 

At least the plastic will probably be cool aesthetically. I hope. Please.

[ERJAK]

Personally, I like where the power level of each individual AoF is right now, based on what I’ve read. What I think I’d like to see is more Faith Points and no restriction on how many units can attempt a given AoF in 1 turn. If it were like the WH system in that each unit can attempt each AoF up to once per turn, and the base number of FPs went up to 5 or 6 (edit: lowering the ratio of models to FPs might be better for scaling, like 1 per 6 models or something, though that would be a bit more clunky to count) I think that would be reasonable. But of course I’ve not played any games yet so I’m not just eyeballing things. However, these would both be very simple changes to make for GW.

This is a workable solution. I think we can all agree that AoFs are not where they should be at the moment. And from what I've seen, there are two schools of thought on how to fix them that are both perfectly valid:

 

One: As you suggested here, remove turn limit (or other) restrictions on AoFs. Faith Points will bottleneck the number of acts you get per game anyway and you'll also be failing in a meaningful way more often than currently(as you likely only bother to use AoFs that you're guaranteed to pass or that don't matter if you fail at the moment) This would fix a lot of the issues with the powerlevel of the acts and would make all the Faith Point generation abilities less of a sad joke. I would say that only The Passion should be limited to once per unit in their current state though. +1 to hit doesn't really stack for us and you'd need 2-3 casts of Hand of the Emperor for that crap to matter.

 

Two: Make the individual acts more powerful. I tend to favor this one because this is what it seems like the system was originally built around. I constantly get the sense when reading through the rules surrounding Faith points and the Acts of Faith that they're supposed to be significant, meaningful bonuses, or at least that GW thought they would be. It makes the system...confusingly goofy when juxtaposed with how paltry the AoFs actually are.

 

I'd  also like to continue emphasizing that I don't want a 4++ infantry blob to be a viable strategy for ANY army because of how frustrating lists like that are to play against, even when they're not particularly powerful.

 

It's interesting that the things that I'm seeing as the most powerful/improved in the list are all things that either ignore AoFs outright or are totally unconcerned with them. Dominions barely think about acts, immolation flamer immos can't use them, Penitent engines can't benefit from them at all, same with arco flagellents.

 

In fact, the only unit I can see being really happy about AoFs are Exorcists and that's only because of Vessels and a Canoness reroll bringing them up to a 97% chance to hit. Even repentia aren't all that enthused by The Passion, considering they'll only get to use it once every 3 games.

[Drider]

it's almost as if they designed the AoF system, then made Vessel of the Emperor's Will, then had to go back to the AoF system and tone it down.

[ERJAK]

it's almost as if they designed the AoF system, then made Vessel of the Emperor's Will, then had to go back to the AoF system and tone it down.

This is EXACTLY what I think happened.

[Montford]

Apparently you can get an Invulnerable save up to 4+ for tanks. Now that will surprise your opponent 

[ERJAK]

Apparently you can get an Invulnerable save up to 4+ for tanks. Now that will surprise your opponent 

We've know that for a while and honestly...it's not that big of a deal. The tanks themselves aren't very good and we could get a 5++ already with Celestine, the extra +1 isn't honestly that big of a deal.

 

Especially since apparently convictions don't affect vehicles for some stupid reason.

[Purifying Tempest]

I realized after someone mentioned: Oh, wow, Repentia Mistresses don't take an Elite Slot anymore!  And I remembered, "oh right, slot play was massively nerfed as well... lame".  So my proposed Brigade has more problems outside of being like 50 points over, lol.

 

I always liked the prospects of BDE detachments, but I never liked the execution of them. I'll probably drop to a BN with a lot of the same unit selections.

[Beams]

 

 

Apparently you can get an Invulnerable save up to 4+ for tanks. Now that will surprise your opponent

We've know that for a while and honestly...it's not that big of a deal. The tanks themselves aren't very good and we could get a 5++ already with Celestine, the extra +1 isn't honestly that big of a deal.

 

Especially since apparently convictions don't affect vehicles for some stupid reason.

Really? That's upsetting. It's not like they get much from it, but it'd be nice.