Sisters Preview

[Slasher956]

Oops, I forgot to include repressors! Silly of me. That would be another Sororitas unit, although one that does not benefit from convictions.

currenty* they are a FW unit so not really into this discussion

 

@Purifying Tempest - If we do kick out the church from the Sisters of Battle then we are down to the same level of units as the Custodes (14 units +1 named character V Custodes 11 +1) so GW have already proved they can do a 'dex that small if they want!

 

 

 

*I hope that GW do pull it from FW and put it into the codex especially as FW arent selling the parts any more......

[Ficinus]

I was trying to figure out the design logic behind so many of the slot exceptions, and I haven’t quite gotten it yet.

 

Hubs suggested that they didn’t want sisters to be able to fill out a brigade on the cheap, but you can take a hospitaller or a dialogus to the same end.

 

I thought maybe they wanted to prevent the AdMin detachment. A priest HQ plus 3 AdMin elites gets you a “Sisters” army without any sisters in it. Since priests are 1 per detachment and the battle conclave doesn’t take up slots, you can’t get a vanguard or a sup comm from admin only while not taking Sisters.

 

But then I realized you can take a priest and 3 penitent engines, so that line of reasoning falls apart. I’m trying not to be too salty about the idea that 4 of our 22 unit options will probably be slotless. It’s already a small dex../

 

I did a little bit of adding up:

22 options

8 options are Sororitas and benefit from convictions (assuming vehicles don’t)

7 are Sororitas but do not benefit from convictions

7 are not Sororitas

 

 

Edit: maybe they want to avoid the priest plus arcosX3 as a cheap imperial ally for horde clear and access to extremis trigger word?

 

 

What are the 7 non-Sororitas units?  Missionaries, Preachers, Arco-flagellants, Crusaders, Death Cults, and Penitent Engines are six.  Is the Priest from the Index the seventh?

[Mekhitar]

Jacobus. I know, I almost forgot him too!

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I still don't understand how GW decides which factions will get chapter tactics on their vehicles and which ones won't. It's so damn random. And it's not like it's based off of the power of the vehicles. Eldar and Guard superheavies get them, so I don't see why immolators and repressors shouldn't get them. It's just strange. If they did, that would make the 6+++ a whole lot more attractive.

[Mekhitar]

I haven’t seen the language, so it is possible that our vehicles do get them. Can anyone confirm/deny?

[Purifying Tempest]

I still don't understand how GW decides which factions will get chapter tactics on their vehicles and which ones won't. It's so damn random. And it's not like it's based off of the power of the vehicles. Eldar and Guard superheavies get them, so I don't see why immolators and repressors shouldn't get them. It's just strange. If they did, that would make the 6+++ a whole lot more attractive.

 

Psh, I want the +1 STR and +1 Attack on my Rhino.  I'll be right back after stealing a deff rolla off a battle wagon.

I haven’t seen the language, so it is possible that our vehicles do get them. Can anyone confirm/deny?

 

I don't believe it has changed.  Vehicles get Shield of Faith, and Adepta Sororitas, but not Acts of Faith.

 

Edit: I am an idiot, not your question at all :P

 

Not sure, I haven't had the eyesight to read that well in the few videos I've seen if the Codex calls out Adepta Sororitas Infantry or Unit for applying convictions to.

[Beams]

Repressor with +1 attack and +1 Str would be hitting at Str 7 Ap-1 and 12 attacks. Still hitting on 5's, but if you rolled well, it would be hilarious.

[Mekhitar]

Me either. I don’t think so, because if yes, we’d be the only rhinos with traits. Marines and chaos don’t get them.

 

Edit: then you vessels your fight twice to get the most out of those repressors! Sisters op! :p

[FallenSoldiers]

I have to agree with some of the comments here that the bones of the AoF system can be manageable, just the acts themselves are too weak and GW put far too much stock in Vessels.

[FallenSoldiers]

 

 

I still don't understand how GW decides which factions will get chapter tactics on their vehicles and which ones won't. It's so damn random. And it's not like it's based off of the power of the vehicles. Eldar and Guard superheavies get them, so I don't see why immolators and repressors shouldn't get them. It's just strange. If they did, that would make the 6+++ a whole lot more attractive.

Psh, I want the +1 STR and +1 Attack on my Rhino. I'll be right back after stealing a deff rolla off a battle wagon.

I haven’t seen the language, so it is possible that our vehicles do get them. Can anyone confirm/deny?

I don't believe it has changed. Vehicles get Shield of Faith, and Adepta Sororitas, but not Acts of Faith.

 

Edit: I am an idiot, not your question at all :P

 

Not sure, I haven't had the eyesight to read that well in the few videos I've seen if the Codex calls out Adepta Sororitas Infantry or Unit for applying convictions to.

All the reports I’ve seen/read have called out that it’s Infantry Only... :(

[dracpanzer]

Did my first attempt at a playtest last night. Sadly I was too busy to really focus on building a report with pics and the like. Next time. I wasn't sure which way to go with my list. So I took my old 2k list minus the Geminae which came out to 1814 pts, and added in as many Repentia as I could then Mistress and a rhino to port my Canonesses around as well.

 

The game was against DE and wasn't really memorable. Seraphim got nuked after doing next to nothing using their strategem. Reavers were just too fast to be able to hide from them. I lost initiative, failed to sieze (the norm for me) Vanguard move was wasted as I castled up for the 4++ to start for going second. Retributors were their usual selves during the shooting phase, which without any special strategems we dont yet know about, left them underwhelming without the ability to shoot in the AoF phase.

 

Repentia were nasty but really didn't have any real targets worth their while. Archon frustrated them in hth with his 2++, then killed himself during his fight phase when I used their strategem. We weren't sure if my opponent could just skip fighting them or not. I was sure to make sure he couldn't target anything but Repentia.

 

At any rate, my question is how does everyone feel we should playtest the beta? Go with what we know and see where it leads us or drop everything and build from the ground up? Seraphim suffer a great deal without a double move and perhaps DS just isn't great for them. Strategem was nice, but they died immediately afterwards and never got to use their inferno pistols except overwatch. OoSR was nice and allowed the one squad to roast two reavers. Retributors may have to go heavy flamers to not stick out like a sore thumb.

 

Mind you, I don't have the book and still have unanswered questions about missionary/preachers costs and what not. I didn't build for AoF, never has cause to use the Passion, and tossed the +1 to hit about some while dropping a heal almost every turn and then raising the question. Is using Vessel of the Emperor's Will allowed when using the heal a unit AoF? The idea of Celestine running QB in the center of my Repressor swarm giving off a continuous heal, which apparently might work on vehicles didn't seem so bad.

[Beams]

In my opinion, the Seraphim deepstrike strategem is a trap. I feel people think it's much better than it is, since it only allows you to fire with the hand Flamers once, since the range doesn't extend to the movement phase, and 2d3 Str 3 hits isn't amazing. For your money, a full squad double firing bolt pistols would be better, but even then the limited range and opportunity cost (melta pistols are generally the go to option with seraphim) make it's utility questionable.

[A.T.]

They had the same load outs since the WH Codex (when I got my first unit) if not before ...... its part of their lore that BSS have 2 special or 1 special & 1 heavy, dominions 4 special, retributors 4 heavy.... Celestians & BSS used to have the heavy flamer counting as a special as well.

The sisters have had various restrictions, ultimately removed in the WD dex. The one thing that never came back was the option to equip the entire seraphim squad with handflamers.

 

 

The game was against DE and wasn't really memorable. Seraphim got nuked after doing next to nothing using their strategem. Reavers were just too fast to be able to hide from them. I lost initiative, failed to sieze (the norm for me) Vanguard move was to lost as I castled up for the 4++ to start for going second.

 

Last game I had against DE I got some decent early damage off but then had to chase them all around the board. Wished I had exorcists because nothing else could catch them.

 

 

I remember saying something months ago that I wasn't a fan of the Ministorum units being shoved into Codex Adepta Sororitas because it will definitely present problems and water down the resultant product for both armies (though I only care about the Sisters, to be honest).  We're already seeing that with so much design thought and space being wasted on making these (forgive the harsh tone here) stupid units fit into our army.

 

It's all just copy/pasted index material to fill the book out. Without them we'd just have one new stratagem and half a dozen less units.

[Mekhitar]

Just a reminder that hand flamers do d6 now. Still a trap though.

[Beams]

Just a reminder that hand flamers do d6 now. Still a trap though.

When did they adjust that? I must have missed it.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Repentia were nasty but really didn't have any real targets worth their while. Archon frustrated them in hth with his 2++, then killed himself during his fight phase when I used their strategem. We weren't sure if my opponent could just skip fighting them or not. I was sure to make sure he couldn't target anything but Repentia.

 

That's covered in the Designers' Commentary (but not either of the Big FAQs or Rulebook Errata.)

 

All eligible units must fight in the Fight phase; they cannot ‘pass’ and wait for another phase.

[Purifying Tempest]

Hand flamers were confirmed in one of the review videos I saw to be d6 hits.  But I still think that even at d6 hits, that 3 STR and fighty range with their Stratagem makes Bolt Pistol Seraphim a much better option for Burning Descent.  There may be some argument to be made for Hand Flamers if Burning Descent lasted until the end of the turn (or at least Shooting Phase), but even 2d6 STR 3 shots would have problems against 4 STR 4 shots (even assuming 1 misses).

 

I read the short report from Drac and it left me asking the same exact question: no Exorcists?  A few Exorcist with a 4++ sounds like it would show Dark Eldar the business, probably a lot better than anything else, but at least HB Rets should be able to do some damage to their transports.  Exorcists would allow you to Burning Descent near a Raider, pop it with the first round of Seraphim fire to shed a wound or two, then crack it with an Exorcist or two, and potentially shred the squad with the Seraphim after they tumble out.

 

Dark Eldar definitely got me loving some of our non-Flamer Flamer weapons.  They have some ridiculous invulnerable saves, and backed up with feel no pain on their infantry.  I found making them deal with MASSES of wounds attacked the army way better.  Immolators, Heavy Flamers, and this matchup also got me loving the Hellhound.  STR 5-6, so it can threaten their light paper-thick vehicles, 1 damage each with about -1 AP to bring them down to their invulnerable saves.  Funny thing about that set up... it works really well against A LOT of armies, but maybe not heavy skew lists like Knights and IG Parking Lots.

 

I don't expect our army to handle DE, or any Aeldari flavored army, decently well.  You can tailor against them, but I think naturally, their speed just counters our whole 24" (optimally 12") and in playstyle with long range weaponry and high movement.  But I think Exorcists would have shined in that match, for sure.

 

Though the thought of using Vessels of the Emperor's Will with the Healing AoF sounds REAL strong.  Especially late game when you can pop up multiple units to get some needed firepower to potentially flip the balance of power or solidify a win.  Especially if it works on vehicles and causes an Exorcist to pop up a bracket.  If you're not playing Bloody Rose, I imagine a lot of the AoFs are going to be spent getting a little extra movement here and there, healing units, and mitigating psychic powers and morale as needed, as well as the before-mentioned +1 BS for a critical unit (oh hai melta-doms).

 

I also think Inferno Pistol Seraphim are going to fall by the wayside.  Their fragile nature coupled with their threat value and the nerf to AoF movement is going to drive them WAY down in actual performance.  I'm thinking 1 squad to Burning Descent at the most, possibly with a smaller 5 girl squad that tries to hopscotch around LoS breaking terrain to close to potentially snipe turn 2 or something, but losing the turn 1 threat is going to be a massive blow to Inferno Seraphim.

[CaptainMarsh]

I still have my seven games lined up between Friday and Sunday, but last night I had someone who wanted to play and allowed me to use what I knew of the beta codex. 1500 points. Went in and played with a slightly altered list from normal, including a squad of Seraphim that I don't normally bring. Played against Tallarn Guard. Against this player and army in this edition I have a good record, 16-9, with Sisters specifically being 5-3.

It went...less than well, though I wasn't tabled. Our lower mobility meant I was outplayed for the objectives and had to be more aggressive and get her off of them rather than my preferred strategy of forcing her to dislodge me. Offensively I think Dominions might be a little improved because of Strategem use on an individual basis but the lack of being able to pump out more shots meant I was still removing fewer models than I would look. Seraphim require DS now to be effective sadly. I waited until turn 3 to bring them in and used their strategem. Funny enough because of their Strategem the Seraphim were able to, thanks to great rolling, kill or neutralize two IS, a Company Commander, and ended in combat against a Heavy Weapons Squad. They would exist in his backline for a while and was the unit keeping me in it.

The rest of the army lacked offensive firepower and the numbers to really push against her too well. Not being able to move quickly and pour out the shots meant that I wasn't doing enough to the Guardsmen to have a real impact. She knew how to wrap her vehicles up to deny me any effective melta shots. My two Exorcists were able to destroy a Leman Russ and a Basilisk but were in turn eventually destroyed. She still had a Leman Russ when it was over.

It wasn't all bad, as I enjoyed the Seraphim and think Storm Bolter Dominions are one of the most efficient anti-infantry choices possible. The rest of the army, however, just lacked any effective punch and its durability is lessened when your enemy is just pouring shots into you rather than going after your armor. By the end of the game I still had FP left over but stopped paying any attention to it: With the exception of specific scenarios I don't find the +1 to hit compelling and +3 movement for a single unit is hysterically less mobile than other armies. A ten Sister squad did charge into two IS and tear them to pieces by fighting twice, that was fun.

The AoF system itself seems fine, but the AoF themselves are underpowered and/or too situational. The playstyle the book wants us to play has its benefits, but it is telling that castled Exorcists with a 4++ benefitting from +1 to hit or Healing because of Vessels is the closest we get to having something of actual intense power.
Seven games to follow.

[dracpanzer]

I read the short report from Drac and it left me asking the same exact question: no Exorcists?  A few Exorcist with a 4++ sounds like it would show Dark Eldar the business <snip>  I also think Inferno Pistol Seraphim are going to fall by the wayside.

Like I said, it was my pre Beta list totaling 1814pts that I tossed some Repentia in too. I have Exorcists that have been collecting dust since the first days of 8ed. I tried the Seraphim strategem because its new. A squad with InfPistols because the HdFlamer hasn't been in my lists in 8ed. They get a lot of shots, but they are just bolt pistols. I get a lot more anti-inf out of double SB/BSS squads in Repressors x 3.

 

I will try them out again this weekend, don't know if I will put a plaspistol on the superior who could then shoot it twice on DS, right?

 

Good to see that we played it correctly forcing the Archon to attack even though he didnt want too. I got good work out of positioning Celestine and my WL Canoness for the 4++ on most of my stuff a good chunk of the game. I didn't castle but made a point of protecting the obvious targets the most while looking to take advantage of any moves by my DE opponent to target those units not fully protected.

 

Re-read Vessel of the Emperor's Will, doesn't seem like there is anything preventing you from pumping out the heals mid to late game with that to bolster up our girls lack of staying power. Also appears that it would allow heals to vehicles I believe.

[Purifying Tempest]

With Seraphim deep striking, I would even give the Superior 2 Bolt Pistols, 10 gals with 20 Bolt Pistols shooting twice.  Would definitely use it to try to chew up some infantry, no hard targets.  I would think about a Chainsword on the Superior in place of a pistol, but that would be exclusively a Bloody Rose thing, and even then I think for a majority of the cases, 2 Bolt Pistols comes out ahead or at least the same (STR 4 shot vs STR 4 melee attack).

 

That keeps the squad somewhere between 50-100 points, though I would definitely 10-girl the squad to maximize that stratagem impact when they strike down.  Dominions with Stormbolters would probably do virtually the same thing, but Dominions can't score objectives as easily as Seraphim, and if the bad guys have to focus on a pile of girls with at least a 5+ invul, all toting Bolt Pistols to stop them from harrying his scoring troops... that's a massive win for Dominions, PEngines, Repentia, Exorcists... heck, every other model we field to the inclusion of like BSS.

[dracpanzer]

I still see myself prefering meltaDoms for the AT. If my Doms get dismounted something has gone wrong and were they SB's they won't be alive long enough to use the SB strat anyways. Keeping my BSS pure SB the Strat might make oppobents think twice, though I would probably pass on it anyways. SBDoms just don't seem capable of covering the nerf Infpistol Seraphim took in the AT department. I intend to roll my Exo's out this soon after I figure out what I intend to cut out of my old list to make rooom.

 

I intend to keep running my old list with additions to make them 2k again to see how the existing units hold up. Looking to see what cuts can be made of low performing units and thenusing those points to make further additions and changes. At first look, Seraphim are on the block for those additional cuts, with at least the heavy bolters swapped to heavy flamers on my Rets a close second. OoBR Repentia are very solid. Once I have worked those kinks out I will be seeing what HQ choices might be changed to bring more to the table.

 

I want to keep Celestine, but there are only so many points to play with.

 

Also, with all the don't take up slots rules on our Ministorum units how is everyone filling up a Brigade? I'm still sporting double battalions, one OoSR, one OoBR.

[Ficinus]

I think the best/cheapest way to fill out the elite slot would be a Repentia squad with Mistress, a Priest, and a Dialogos. However, that is really only well suited for Bloody Rose Brigades (I'll be running Bloody Rose). If Repentia don't float your boat, five Celestians to bodyguard the warlord instead of the Repentia would be cheaper but less useful.

[ERJAK]

In my opinion, the Seraphim deepstrike strategem is a trap. I feel people think it's much better than it is, since it only allows you to fire with the hand Flamers once, since the range doesn't extend to the movement phase, and 2d3 Str 3 hits isn't amazing. For your money, a full squad double firing bolt pistols would be better, but even then the limited range and opportunity cost (melta pistols are generally the go to option with seraphim) make it's utility questionable.

It's 2d6 shots each now(apparently). That's why it's good. That plus bloody rose was enough for my ten seraphim to grind off 7-8 space wolf intercessors. Against a horde unit it would have been quite a bit better.

 

That said, it's still nowhere near as good as double move inferno pistols were.

[ERJAK]

Hand flamers were confirmed in one of the review videos I saw to be d6 hits.  But I still think that even at d6 hits, that 3 STR and fighty range with their Stratagem makes Bolt Pistol Seraphim a much better option for Burning Descent.  There may be some argument to be made for Hand Flamers if Burning Descent lasted until the end of the turn (or at least Shooting Phase), but even 2d6 STR 3 shots would have problems against 4 STR 4 shots (even assuming 1 misses).

This is actually mathematically false.

2d6 autohit S3 flamers does 2.3331 damage against T4, 4 Bolt pistol shots does 1.3334, with those numbers skewing even more toward hand flamers at T3 and T5. Whether that's worth the extra 6pts depends on if they get a second turn to shoot, but hand flamers are clearly better for use with the stratagem. 

 

I'd also argue that healing units with the AoFs is a pretty sad use of them. Getting single models back, even on multiple units, is pretty mediocre considering how cheap our wounds are and healing tanks would only be worth the fairly ridiculous investment necessary if you were healing multiple tanks above their degradation point.

[Purifying Tempest]

 

Hand flamers were confirmed in one of the review videos I saw to be d6 hits.  But I still think that even at d6 hits, that 3 STR and fighty range with their Stratagem makes Bolt Pistol Seraphim a much better option for Burning Descent.  There may be some argument to be made for Hand Flamers if Burning Descent lasted until the end of the turn (or at least Shooting Phase), but even 2d6 STR 3 shots would have problems against 4 STR 4 shots (even assuming 1 misses).

This is actually mathematically false.

2d6 autohit S3 flamers does 2.3331 damage against T4, 4 Bolt pistol shots does 1.3334, with those numbers skewing even more toward hand flamers at T3 and T5. Whether that's worth the extra 6pts depends on if they get a second turn to shoot, but hand flamers are clearly better for use with the stratagem. 

 

I'd also argue that healing units with the AoFs is a pretty sad use of them. Getting single models back, even on multiple units, is pretty mediocre considering how cheap our wounds are and healing tanks would only be worth the fairly ridiculous investment necessary if you were healing multiple tanks above their degradation point.

 

 

Is this where I say: neh neh, I just don't like it!  Your numbers can't hurt me :D

 

In the end you're look at 40 bolt pistol shots vs 32 Bolt Pistol and 4d6 Hand Flamer Hits.  About 12-14 Flamer hits translates into 4-5 wounds vs T4.  8 Bolt Pistol shots turns into 5 hits and 2-3 wounds vs T4.  So yeah, turn 1 you're probably going to double your expected output vs light squads (read as infantry), but man, being tied to that 8" gun feels like a problem.  If they're not destroyed in return, you're potentially losing a few inches of control to be able to fire those hand flamers.  I mean, I'm seriously nitpicking at this point, and I don't think the squad is going to impacted VERY much either way.  The pro side is I bet T3 models get ripped by hand flamers, so they could be a very good add vs some armies with virtually no let off vs others.  I still stand by Seraphim got a bit of a role change and should be harassing opponent's scoring units and scoring points of their own with their mobility instead of tank and character hunting.